I just got an e-mail that a Black Rhino is available for hunting. The price is only $175,000 for a 14 day hunt with several other species included. I don't think my piggy bank is good for that.

Sounds like quite a deal. When I was in SA last fall, the PH was telling me about a black rhino hunt for 250k. I doubt that ANY part of one could be exported out of SA. That is alot of money for pictures only.

I can't think of a reason in the world to consider shooting it, even if I had more money than Bill Gates.

If I had the money(I don't) I'd go with a Green Hunt for the pictures knowing I could do it again in a year or 2. Not being able to take the trophy home doesn't make sense to me.
My 2 cents worth.
Greg

This is exactly the kind of development that I have feared. As game populations diminish (due to human encroachment, bad weather or whatever) the hunting opportunities become scarcer and the prices rise. Add to this that a safari has become a real possibility for many Americans for the first time with our recent economic growth and its becoming increasing popular. Demand also drives prices.

So what? Well, what about dwindling species? Maybe we charge exhorbitant fees for hunting a quota of endangered animals and some of that money goes back into the conservation. Sounds OK. But what if the demand continues to rise and more safari providers want to get into the action. Will Governments (not famous anywhere on the globe for acting in the best interests of the future) show restraint in the face of immediate profits?

There are only 500 black rhinos in the world. $175K or $250K sounds stratospheric, but I bet you dimes to donuts somebody pays it. So, what next year? Will another be culled? Maybe for twice as much? What if somebody will pay $1,000,000. Or $5M? What about an auction for the highest bidder? What does it cost to kill the last one?

I don't expect that there is an answer to this problem, but what I see happening is that hunting will increasingly become restricted - economically - as game populations dwindle, and Governments will eventually succumb to the allure of money rather than the higher needs of conservation. At first the average Joe hunter will be squeezed out on the basis of expense. That's almost inevitable (think about it: what if EVERYBODY wanted to go on safari?). But it won't stop there. Hunting won't finally be held to sustainable quotas at outrageous prices or even banned outright, it will become the privilege of the ultra-rich until finally everything that can have a trophy fee put on it will be bred exclusively for sport "hunting" (on fenced ranches probably). The market value of the animal will exceed its intrinsic value as a wild animal in a natural setting. Is it too incredible to see game surviving only because there is a market, finally superceding the entire purpose of conservation? Call me cynical, but I don't think this is too unbelievable.

The only way to prevent this is to enforce an incorruptible conservation program utterly and ruthlessly devoted to sustainable conservation while removing the economic influence as far from the politics as possible. But that is unlikely to happen because those fantastic trophy fees will go into Gov't programs. Eventually, especially as natural habitat diminishes past the point of viable sustainment, someone will rationalize that this IS conservation.

Well done, Harald. I might add the question: What possible pride could be derived from such a venture? The animal is deemed "available", which means they know of its' presence in a given location. What kind of hunting challenge is that? It amounts to a canned hunt of a preciously rare species for some wealthy individual who thinks he'll receive a "job well done" from the hunting community. Not from me. The whole thing reeks from top to bottom.

[ 06-05-2002, 00:44: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Things like this give ALL hunters a bad name and for good reason. the days of black rhino hunting are gone period. most hunters and SCI awalys preach conservation of game, this dosent sound like any sort of conservation too me. I hope that who ever buys that hunt isnt applauded or even recognized buy the hunting community.

Harald I applaud your statement. I fear this may be the future as well.

Harold, You couldn't be more correct. One has to look no farther than to price a desert bighorn sheep hunt here in the US or Mexico. $50,000!!! And they are sold out years in advance. I'm afraid that big game hunting is becoming out of reach, financially, for alot of people. That is tragic, as hunter numbers continue to decline.

Here are my thoughts the rhino is not going to be canned but it will definitely be in a area where it is kept by fences.

The rancher or reserve where the hunt is held is probarly looking at some capital to get some more rhinos or whatever animals. I'm sure the government is not going to give out a permit on a black rhino unless they know that it's going to die from ageing and why waste the capital and give it to the vultures.

Rhino hunting on the overall is I think too easy and not really ethtcal the hunter get to be driven on the ranch for a whole week except for the spot where the rhino usually resides and then gets told finally we found him. And after a short stalk as long as you play along with the wind you shoot the half blind animal with a big caliber and the ph as a go at it as well too make sure. Because it's not everyday that he gets to shoot a rhino as well.

Believe me they actaually do a lot of good from a rancher point of view and takes half the money earned and buys another two rhino from a auction. Or the resreve put up new and better fences but it is still a stupid hunt. I'm sure that some of you guys can agree that a green hunt is more exiting as you have to get close and the rhino can charge as the drug only takes effect after a while.

But yes what do you do with a ageing rhino let it die and rot or make money out of it and let someone finish is big five collection. I don't know why SCI don't close their books on rhino for the time being. As most of the rhino shot for trophy are females because they grow longer horns.

Safari-Hunt

www.Safari-Hunt.com

Why is it that when a hunt cost big bucks it is bad? I hunted the first 50 yrs of my life in my own back yard so to speak. I could not afford hunting over seas or out west, I worked hard and saved for years, educated my kids and now can afford hunts I never thought about when I was younger. There guys posting on here in their 20's and 30's about going to Africa etc to hunt. When I was that age I was glad to be able to hunt maybe a total of a week a year counting small game. Why are people so jeolous of what they can't afford?

Don't know that anyone's jealous, just concerned for the futuree. Somebody always throws the jealousy card on the table when the increase in prices are mentioned, usually some rich guy(no offense or anything meant to you, Ol Sarge). Hunter's numbers are dwindling, and the opportunities left are increasing in price. 2+2=4, right?
This particular opportunity raises a few hackles because you are killing an endangered species. I'd guess the vast majority of ethical hunters consider this a bad thing, how about the non-hunters? What if 60 minutes gets ahold of this? I could care less what the antis think, btw.
In Zimbabwe, a whole lot of these critters are in danger of being poached, and there's some concern in the scientific community that the gene pool is already bottlenecked, and a disease could wipe them all out.
Should we really be hunting endangered species? I think that's the main question. I don't think so.

I didn't even read the responses to this post! The reason I didn't, is because I don't need the stress of the anger it inlists.

I WOULD NOT SHOOT A BLACK RHINO, TODAY, IF THEY GAVE ME THE HUNT FREE! I would gladly shoot the bastard who offers this hunt though!

I have to agree with most posting here but I will take exception here and there and agree to a greater degree with Safari-Hunt. I think the ethics of this hunt, even assuming a fair chase scenario, are dependant upon where the money goes and the age and condition of the animal. If the animal is very old and not breeding anymore and the money goes into the artificial insemination of a bunch of females in the herd, I have ZERO problem with this hunt. If the herd is well managed, it is a fair chase hunt (which it obviously cannot be), and the money were to be used appropriately (and I had enough of it), I dare say that I would undertake this hunt myself. Granted, this is a lot of "ifs" but I don't think, from a game management prespective, it is right to assume that this hunt has to be unethical just because there are very few animals in existence.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

The problem is more people and less habitat for game. The consumptive use programs (also known as hunting) give value to game in its habitat by charging what the market will bear to hunt individual animals that are past breeding age.

The first black rhino hunt I saw was for $300,000, so evidently the price is coming down as the various protection programs allow the rhino to breed and remain alive to make more rhinos.

The South Africans pioneered this program with the white rhino, and it is routine for people to go whack a white rhino. Prices vary by tender, but $15,000 to $25,000 is generally what they run. Darting (green) hunts for white rhino run about $10,000.

I think we can expect to see more black rhino hunts in the future for lower prices unless a catastrophy occurs -- similar to what went on with the white rhino over the last 30 years.

If the people who have the wherewithal to support black rhino conservation by buying a very expensive hunt can do so, more power to them. Me, I make a contribution to the conservation program and take pictures when I can. I have run into blacks in Namibia and in Zim.

I would however like to be the agent who sells the hunt!

jim dodd

As to the cost of the Green hunt on white rino it must be comming down as I am doing one this fall for $4500.

Interesting discussion about supply and demand. But IF hunter numbers are decreasing(and everyone says this is the case) how does the FREE market support ever escalating prices? From sheep to small game to Africa you can track price increases straight thruogh the recession. What gives?

I with Harald.
I really hope the money is used to save the rhino.
We as hunters have a spesial responsibility to take care of game. I don't like the tought of the money from this hunt going into the pocket of some buisnesman.

Johan

Some of you guys are allowing sentamentalism to get in the way of common sense.It is almost a certainty that any black rhino offerred for a "hunt" is an animal that is past breeding age and as such will have exactly zero impact on the survival of the species.No impact!It cannot make any difference at all,period.
Now that we see this most important point, what is better for a ranch owner,a rhino project,or a country that is sponsoring(licensing) this hunt.Do they let this old rhino live out his days in peace,taking up space and food resources that are getting more limited each day.In the end he falls over dead and nobody benefits at all.No more baby rhinos were born of this beast and in fact his very existence may have delayed a young and healthy animal from filling this niche.
Or do we allow an individual with both the money and the inclination to come in and harvest this animal at a consideral fee that can go to the cost of projects that will actually have an impact on the propigation of the species.
This exact scenario has played out with the white rhino and without question has been the salvation of that species.By allowing the controlled and regulated harvest of surplus animals(and regardless of how many exist ,a non- breeding animal is surplus)we give these animals a value,we give landowners and farmers an incentive to protect them and protect habitat for them.If on the other hand we do not allow any hunting at all then they are a liability.They have no value and take up space that could otherwise be used by an animal that is valuable.
As for the poster who says that he would not shoot the last rhino even if was free; heaven forbid we should see that day. But if that day comes and there is for sure only one existing black rhino,then it is too late to get concerned about the plight of the rhino.Sell his carcas for a billion dollars and put that money into habitat for viable species.That one animal is as good as dead as far as the species is concerned and his only value in this world would be to turn his demise into a windfall for other animals that are also suffering from habitat loss.
It is definitely politiclly correct ,and the safest thing to say as well, that we should not be shooting endangered species.But the intelligent thing to say is that we should carefully regulate the killing of endangered species so as to ensure that no negative impact is allowed(by taking non-breeding animals only)and that the species as a whole should benefit directly from the process.This is sound conservation, has worked for the White rhino, and is the only hope for the long term viability of the black rhino....eyedoc

I'll take NO for 250k, please!
Final answer!

I would say to anyone wanting to shoot a rhino (white or black) that "hey, for a mere 50k, you can shoot the rover while I drive it. If you stop it, you get to take pictures of the horn (honk honk). If you don't, well, it's a pay in advance thing"
Come on, people, shooting rhino is unethical, period. I agree that SCI should close it's books, until a SOLID population can be built. While I wouldn't take a shot at the blokes offering the hunt, I would vote with my dollars, and NOT use them.

If you MUST MUST MUST have a rhino, dart it, and stay on the ground until he/she's down.

Here's an interesting thought, for dart hunts. You and 10 of your buddies get together and each of you get a cast off the horn? Heck, I would pay for that!!

Here's an open suggestiong that the rhino be replaced, on the big 5, with STALKING a hippo, and having it charge!! No standing on a bank shooting down, an honest charge, like (who's the PH sullivan? that does the death o' video stuff)

Jeffe' "grande cinco" are buff, lion, leopard, hippo and croc. But, they are ALL given fair chance with me

just my 2 �

jeffe

Eyedoc said: "Some of you guys are allowing sentamentalism to get in the way of common sense"

Eyedoc - Perhaps you are allowing Presumption get in the way of common sense. How is it you know how much, if any, of the funds generated by this offering will be allotted to conservation efforts?How is it you know this rhino is a non-breeder and, if in fact such is the case, how is it you know that a fully mature but sexually inactive rhino male has nothing further to contribute to the welfare of his kind?

I submit to you, sir, that you do not know. The reduction of black rhino numbers in the past 25 years has rendered offerings of this sort as bordering on the obscene, providing only tainted dollars for a greedy few and potent, justifiable fodder for the antis. As members of a group who still holds hope for the future of this species and that of sport hunting, I believe we have to rise above this and work smarter.

[ 06-10-2002, 07:13: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

I endeavor not to let rampant emotion cloud my judgment, but I may have been alarmist in my future scenario. Still I think some here may have misunderstood my concern. It was not with the price of hunting or with the fate of this particular black rhino. It was what I perceive to be the danger of a trend - not a definite trend yet - but the danger of one. It is something we need to watch. Hunters have always been at the forefront of conservation. I would like to think that is because we have a love of wild things and a sense of moral duty to this world, rather than that we have a mercenary interest in prolonging our sport. Conservation has value in its own right, quite part from its benefits to the hunting fraternity, and I think most of us appreciate that.

As far as letting emotions interfere with practical sense I understand Eyedoc's argument and Nickudu's as well. I have had similar concerns about the virility of culled animals. How scrupulously is that evaluated? On the other hand, I felt it was a pointlessly stupid act on the part of the Kenyan wildlife department a decade or more ago when they burned several million dollars worth of confiscated ivory rather than sell it and put that money into their conservation and anti-poaching efforts. Other countries at that time allowed hunting as well and had thriving herds even though they were closer to the civil wars that fueled the black market. You can cut off your own nose to spite your face and I think they did it.

Many question the competence of the game mangement in our own states, despite the fact that they often have every available tool to work with. So how are we to place trust in 3rd world entities to properly assess a perhaps even more complex ecosystem and impliment proper solutions, while operating under the shadow of near total corruption? Unless the soverignty of these governments is somehow violated, we can do little about it. What we can do is set proper precedents, listen to our hearts and keep a tight rein on our egos. More and more, hunters are discovering just which animals are routinely available and which offerings may require closer examination. It shouldn't be too hard to do the right thing.

Nick
You are right that I have made some assumptions and do not know all the details about this particular rhino.But I state a fact when I say that the controlled and carefully regulated hunting of the white rhino has been its salvation to date and the same could be the case for the black if it is to have a chance...eyedoc

eyedoc,
I hear you. The rate of speed of the demise of the black rhino makes me shake with rage. When I think of the bravado of Yemeni sheiks with their rhino horn dagger handles and archaic Oriental medicinal practices I can hardly believe we're in the year 2002. "OUR" entire environment is being raped by ignorance and I am friggin pissed off it is allowed to go on. We need an international regulatory commission with some real teeth.

I think both of us would love to be able to make a hunt and take the big 5 on free-ranging conditions and under the honerable terms as did some of the great hunters of yesteryear.I know that I would.Unfortunately the Africa of that time period is no longer available to us and I feel we are worse off because of it.However I dearly love the Africa we have left and I hardily support the effort of any organizations that heelp to preserve the fauna and habitat that is left and to return as much of the habitat that is possible to a condition that can once again support populations of game.
I do not agree however with those groups that think the only way to accomplish that goal is to eliminate hunting.The "naturalist" or preservationist groups that insist that nature should be left to her own devices do not allow for the fact that to survive in the world of today nature has to pay her own way.
That brings us back to our issue of the black rhino.The black rhino for quite some time has been protected as an endangered species and almost no legal hunting of it has been allowed.The white rhino has been hunted on a highly regulated quota and at a fairly premium price during much of this same time period.The white rhino has made lots of progress in becoming viable during this span of time while the black has steadily lost ground.Why,you may ask?
Because the black rhino cannot be hunted it has not been financialy equitable for game ranchers or governments to set aside habitat and resources for the protection of a species that will show them no financial reward.If they go to such great lengths for the black rhino it has to be strictly for the love of the animal.Unfortunatly there are not that many altruistic animal lovers among the game managers and governments in Africa.MONEY TALKS
These same individuals and governments would rather put their land,money and resources in white rhino because they can see some light at the end of the tunnel from a financial aspect. We have seen what it cost to take a white rhino listed on this forum from time to time.That is a big incentive to raise and protect these animals from poaching.
The cost is high, but the rewards are great.This is also why I felt comfortable saying that the black rhino being offerred is probably a non- viable breeder.It would make little since to allow one that was still producing offspring to be killed now that there is a chance to make some real money on a sustained yeild program(like they have been doing with the white rhino).
I do not defend the hunt listed because I have serrendipitously taken one and feel the need to defend my honor.I don't operate (unfortunately) in that financial spectrum.And if I did there are quite a few species that would take my money before I made a play for a rhino.But if there is to be any chance for a REAL rhino hunt in my lifetime, I believe it will take place because a well regulated system is put into place to allow the harvest of surplus rhino at a profit to game ranchers,indiginous peoples,and governments.Only if the rhino can pay its own way will it have the chance to survive.
Is it already too late for the black rhino to survive.I do not know.But if it is,I will stand with you to mourn it's passing...eyedoc

Is this a high-fence deal, a walk-it-out-on-a-leash-and-let-the-customer-shoot-it deal (like American bison killing), or a fair chase hunt on land that someone has managed well enough that there is a local surplus of black rhino?

H. C.

eyedoc,
Yes, the attachment of a dollar value to ensure the survival of certain animals is inevitable. The difficulty in regard to rhino is that "hunter"
dollars don't compare with the black market value and never will. Additionally, the black is far less tractable than is the white and may well be much more expensive to manage. It may be impossible to protect them but, try we must. The real tradgedy is, were it not for corrupt government and bogus hunting moritoriums, much of the slaughter of the last 25 years could have been avoided, despite these senseless demands emanating from the middle & far east.

The rhino is a very special animal. I can think of no greater loss.

This is part of the e-mail I received regarding this hunt. I eliminated the company's name and info on other things not pertaining to the hunt.

It is our pleasure at __________Safaris to offer the first Black Rhino to be legally hunted in South Africa for approximately 20 years, if not longer!

We are offering a 14 day hunt for the first Black Rhino to be hunted at $175 000, which will also include the following trophies:

2x Kudu Bulls
2x Blue Wildebeest Bulls
2x Impala Rams
2x Warthog

It is uncertain at this stage whether this offer would be able to be regularly repeated in the near future due to the scarcity of the specie, so this is truly an opportunity of a lifetime for any serious trophy collector.

South African Nature Conservation have authority from CITES for the hunt and will issue a CITES export permit against a CITES import permit, which would have to be generated from your side.
(Verification of the authenticity of this permission & documentation can be obtained from Mpumalanga Nature Conservation on fax No. +2713 755-3787 for the attention of Mr. Ernst Rohm, as I suspect you will have a problem with the authorities on your side.)

This "offer" is exactly what I expected.Since this "hunt" is being sanctioned and conducted in RSA it is almost certainly a non-breeding animal.The hunter will be accompanied by several interested persons,most likely a representative of the land owner, a local game scout, and a government official.These will all be on site to help locate the specific animal for harvest and to make sure the hunt goes off properly,whatever that means to them.
This does not represent a traditional rhino hunt that I dream of some day making.However,someone will be willing to pay that rate and I say bully for them.The money paid for killing this critter will likely go in large part to the landowner.But he will in turn continue to spend funds to raise rhino.That includs the considerable expence of fencing the critters and protecting them from the poachers that are at this time their greatest threat.
If this landowner is involved in one of the cooperative schemes like CAMPFIRE even more of the funds will be funneled into the local community.This is not all bad.
Again ,I want to say that I think this most likely is the type of scenario that will give the black rhino a chance at survival and that is what we all want...eyedoc

Well, to play the devils advocate, lets not have a bloody lynch mob....Lets get the facts out here.

If this money is going to a fund to help the black Rhino, as it does on some Mt. Sheep hunts then I have no problem with it....

Lots of white Rhino are shot for about $40 to $50 grand and that money is used to propagate the species through the purchase of younger and more stock...I have no problem with this.

What the hell is wrong with shooting off the old boys before they die of old age or have to be put down...These ranchers invest millions in the production of Black Rhino and have and are saving the species and now we're going to hang them for trying salvage some of the costs????...

You guys need to wake up, your sounding like a bunch of anti hunters and letting emotion take over your intelligence..this surprises me.

Rhino are just like the elephant, you hunt them and you will save them, you quite hunting them and you will lose them......

Shame on some of you because you know better and just got caught up in the emotion of the minute.

Sorry if I have offended some, as most of you are my good friends and always will be, but I have to call'em the way I see'em.

- You don't hunt endangered species. There's a big mess out there requiring proper evaluation before the black rhino should be hunted. IF I have to hear that my views on the subject are clouded by raw emotion, than others will now hear that I feel it more likely that some of the views I am reading today are, shall we say, somewhat askew, for lesser reasons.

Nick you are wrong.We do hunt endangered species.We hunt elephant,and white rhino and polar bear,and cheeta ,and a whole host of other animals that either were,or are still listed as endangered.And because they are being hunted and as such have a value in this world(monetary),they are for the most part in better shape that they were 50 years ago.That is the whole point in a nutshell.We all want to preseve rhino and recent history tells us that the way to do that is to permit the regulated hunting of surplus animals at fair market rates.This is not my opinion, it is simply a fact.And you don't have to believe it because I said it because a great many others have voiced these statments before me.Capstick ,Hemingway,Ruark,Wally Johnson and many others as well.

Eyedoc,
You persist in stating the obvious. Tell me something I don't know. We're are talking about black rhino, which is endangered to an unknown degree. Local situations be damned. Until their overall status is properly studied they should not be hunted. Signing off ....

Well Nick apparantly we disagree but please believe that I have no hidden agenda in my post, it is truly the way I feel..I respect your opinnion and you certainly have a right to it.

Finally some voices of reason on this thread.Thanks guys. Nick, The black rhino has been studied for quite some time now and their numbers have steadily been declining.It has been under complete protection for a lomg time.But to simply say they are now protected only stops honest hunters from shooting them.The poachers will still take them and there will continue to be a trade in rhino horn dagger handles in Yemen.
But if we now allow a few surplus animals to be HUNTED at 175k each, then now they are worth spending money to raise and protect. Money to put aside habitat.
We don't need to study the plight of the rhino.Damn near every black rhino in existence today is known by name.What we need to do is make them valuable enough in the eyes of the land owners and the indigenous people to make them want to preserve them.
This hunt we are talking about is unfortunately representative of the best option available to make that goal possible...eyedoc

Now what I want to know is how much I have to pay to hunt the poachers!

When I was on safari we got to see a few black rhinos that had been relocated to our area. One was thought to be the sole survivor of the herd in Angola. She was ancient, long past breeding age, but they broaught her out of the UNITA controlled area because they respected her ability to survive and because it was felt that she still had something to offer by way of a stabilizing influence on the younger rhinos, even if she could not continue the species.

Twenty years ago the US supported UNITA in its fight against the communists in Angola and Namibia. Then the war wound down and UNITA managed to win the right to be considered in open elections. They lost (not surprisingly). Hey, that's democracy! But since then Jonas Savimbe and friends have poached black rhinos to finance their reinvigorated geurrilla conflict. It would warm my heart to wipe those bastards off the Earth for what they did to the black rhino population in order to perpetuate their petulant and stupid bid for power.

As far as hunting the black rhinos, well maybe there is merit to the idea, but I maintain that I wish both in Africa and North America that conservation did not have to have an economic argument in order to be viable. There is a higher road and I hope that we can pursue it before the only alternative remaining is the zoo or the hunting ranch.

The only difference between this rhino being killed is the way it dies. Either Mother Nature kills it, or a hunter's bullet does (poachers should be killed on the spot, and don't count as hunters).
Where the money goes does matter. If a major portion goes in to protecting rhinos, the I see nothing wrong with it, as long as it's a non-breeding, old rhino, ready to die anyway.
If the money is just a way to take advantage of the situation (unethical, in my view), then I'd be against it. ~~~Suluuq