[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harald:
"As far as hunting the black rhinos, well maybe there is merit to the idea, but I maintain that I wish both in Africa and North America that conservation did not have to have an economic argument in order to be viable. There is a higher road and I hope that we can pursue it before the only alternative remaining is the zoo or the hunting ranch".

As usual, you've got it right Harald. My apologies to all for getting a bit tight. I detest the plight of wild creatures in todays' world. I am thoroughly frustrated.

As long as the money goes straigt to conservation I see no problem with this. But I someone is making money on the black Rhino I have very hard time aksepting it.

By the way we should all look at the animals at home first, like wolfs and bears here in Norway, before we tell outhers to take care of their animals.

Johan

Frankly, I hope every dollar is going into that ranchers pocket, that way I know it will buy more Rhino and not get eaten up in bureacratic salary, equipment and deep dirty African pockets..

Put the Rhino on an economic status, make it possible to hunt them and for some to make big bucks off him and he will survive, otherwise he will end up in a zoo...Ask the White Rhino.

It is the better of two evils......

I think for the most part we all have our noses pointed in the same direction.And I certainly agree that in a perfect world we could save the black rhino just because it is the right thing to do.Unfortunately ,in the world in which we find ourself,it seems that where there is no financial motivation to do the right thing,it often does not happen.Past performance has shown the road we must take.The white rhino restoration project is a pattern of proven sucess with a very similar species and in the same time reference.
I reiterate,now a perfect solution,only the best available one....eyedoc

It's not easy to write what I realy mean in English for me. I can't seem to get it out right. When I wrote conservation I didn't mean to take the money from the rancher and giving then to bureacratic salary. But if someone is making a short time investment in the Rhino just to make money, I'd be weary. They might just leave the rhino and go somewhere else to invest after making the money, without caring about the surival of the spesies. I don't think the individual animal is important, but the spesices is. If an induvidal dies for the good of the species I don't care.

Johan

Ray is correct. If and only if someone can make a profit off this Black Rhino is there going to be incentive to breed more. Maybe some day there will be a huntable population at reasonable price(very doubtful), but this is only going to happen if they pay their own way.

Henery,
I have no clue what your talking about or how this has anything to do with the black Rhino..Some governments are trying to protect the Rhino and whats wrong with that?? These Rhino that we are talking about are privately owned...

The very fact that we now have huntable numbers of white Rhino is owed to the government and people of RSA, who have done a wonderfull job of saving the animal and now he can be hunted and is in abundance but at a high price.

The best thing that could happen to the black rhino is to allow its exportation into So. Africa.

The funny thing is that there is NO WAY the USA would ever issue a CITES import permit for a Black Rhino. The US won't even issue an import permit for an Elephant from Mozambique (one that has a CITES export permit).

Sure, the e-mail says South Africa will issue an export permit...big flippin deal. You can use that permit and $1 and buy yourself a cup of coffee.

IF the guy who shot it is from the US he would still have to settle for a fiberglass replica....I wonder if that is included in the $175,000?

Ray,

Sorry about that. I was shocked to hear that it is somehow immoral for someone (that greedy rancher) to benefit financially from his efforts to provide habitat and protection for black rhinos.

I can smell a Marxist, and it makes me very hot under the collar to hear about this "higher road" on which we insist the rancher does his job protecting the rhino for free or we think it's okay if his government steals his private property (the rhino), now that he has invested time and money in developing that property.

Should we also insist that doctors work out of concern for their patients and not expect remuneration? How about landlords? Is it fair they demand high rents on apartments from their proletarian worker tenants? The simplistic argument that people will or should do good for goodness' sake has never given us a viable means of running a country or an economy. In fact, it has given us the most brutal dictatorships and the most tragic cases of mass starvation in the last century, in socialist/communist countries.

I hope I have been clearer about my point and that have avoided going off on a tangent again I just figured that if it's fair to question the morality of a rancher's collecting finacial rewards for successful rhino protection, it's also fair to point out what's at the end of the "higher road".

H. C.

H.C.,
Your analogy is a poor one, as is your acceptance of the steady demise of a species. So long as it ultimately survives in some number, due solely to an attached valuation, it's just the way of things. Pursuit of the root causes of such problems is not an imperative, as there is always some entity which will come to the rescue, in this instance, the ranchers. This apathetic posture has played a major role in why the rhino is in trouble, today. Had pressure been applied to the offending countries in an earnest and timely fashion, markets would have suffered and we might still have many thousands of rhino. There is something inherently wrong in sitting back, just waiting to see which species are merely decimated and which disappear entirely while awaiting a dollar value designation that never comes.

Nick,
Oh how I wish you were right, but now it's time for a reality check and file 13 the idealistic jargon and lets get on with saving the Black Rhino for the hunters who pay the big bucks. Just like old Jumbo, hunting is saveing him and he is prospering, put him back on the endangered species list and his valueable Ivory will make easy pickens for the poachers who are now under the Masai spear and the game dept that is solely supported by such PH companies as Tanzania Game Trackers, Adam Clemments etc....kill and elephant now and you become Masi leather simply because it makes them money to feed the kids and keep mama happy...thats the way of the world.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:

"and lets get on with saving the Black Rhino for the hunters who pay the big bucks".

Thanks for clearing things up for me Ray.

I've been away for a week long military conference to discover that I'm a Marxist? Gimme a flippin' break! From where in left field did that "business" come? I've never heard anyone call Teddy Roosevelt a commie for creating the national park system! (and yes, they had them then too)

Besides, free range animals cost a rancher precisely nothing (unless he tries to restrain them). They eat grass. Black rhinos haven't been legal to hunt for a long time now so anyone who has actively ranched them has done so with the understanding that they would not be hunted and I applaud that. That is a higher road and it is done with free will, pro bono by individuals not acting under pressure from any Government. The game preserve where I hunted last year does this very thing.

Ray is being practical and I understand that. Fundamentally, I basically agree. I only wish more people AND governments could see their way to preserving wilderness and its wildlife even if it costs a lot of money to do so and "all" anyone gets out of it is the preservation of wild places for the future. When its gone it is gone forever and a zoo can never take its place even if you save a few examples of some of the species. That is a poor shadow of the real thing, as is a typical game ranch.

Incidentally, as good as this idea sounds as a practical solution it has its limits. Anytime you create an unrestricted (aka "free") market for a limited natural resource, you destroy that thing. This, not sport hunting, is what nearly obliterated all the wild game in America in the 19th century and it is why commercial exploitation of wild animals is very strictly limited in this country to the present.

Speaking of idealism, I also don't adhere to the view that any individual or group should be permitted to destroy something utterly in order to preserve some idealistic notion of free markets and "individual liberty". If one's concept of "democracy" is that some group should be able to deny wilderness and wildlife to all future generations just so that they can make money during their brief existence, and that collectively imposed conservation represents "Marxism", then yeah, from that perspective I guess I am a commie - and damn proud of it. Idealism cuts both ways. Almost anything taken to its extremity is wrong.

HI,

I have a question for the people who have hunted Rhino, as I could never hunt them as the cost is way over this blue collar workers price and then some.I am going to hunt a BUFF within a few years, anyway I hope this does not sound stupid.Which is the tougher to bring down the rhino or the BUFF, I heard so much about how tough BUFF are I am just wondering which one is the tough one to hunt or bring down and since I will never get to hunt rhino I am wondering?. Thanks,kev

Just reread this forum and my original post.

NO, final answer.
this aint an elephant or a whiterhino. this is a species with a few hundred (if that many) left.

dart and cast, only. "nonbreeding" is horsehockey, as males can bred until death, and scientists just dont KNOW if a nonbredder just needs a male around (a la armadillo) to bred.

So, if you have to have a black rhino, dart it, cast it, and hell, after 5 dartings, put it in a bred pasture, as this is what a black rhino hunt will amount to. It's NOT as if the game can be KNOWN to be non-bredding, and not observed and confined.

Until there is a stable population, no black rhino hunting.

let's not hear about the polar bear, for example, as they a huge part of their resurgance was that the trophy associations took them off their books, for most of the hunting methods being unethical.

Sorry Ray, I can not agree that hunting the few ones left will rebuild their environment.

jeffe

I agree with Atkinson. If the powers that be say an "ole boy" can be hunted off then by all means lat some rich sportsmen/conservationalist/hunter put him on the wall. I mean thats the whole point aint it ?

Male rhinos can only breed successfully if there is another male, roughly same age and size, to stimulate them with competition. Once a big male ends up "past it" then he should make his final contribution to his species.

Without dollar value, or rand, or whatever, no species has a chance today. And nothing generates money like legal sporthunting. I had a big male approach me as close as 100', "yes I have photos and video of it", which I shot while my .375 as slung over my back.

When we got back my son asked why I didnt shoot it , and I said, "son theres 7 Billion Human Beings and only a few hundred BLK rhinos left in the bush", "If he would have charged I would have set a land speed record for Worlds fastest white boy", besides,"We had the wind". I'd have to say that, even with all the blood I spilled on that trip, that rhino encounter was the highlight of the 10 days, and one of the highlights of my life.

The whole point of bringing them back is to ensure their future in the wild with the dollars of the sport hunter. I dont think Atkinson is talking from the viewpoint of an Outfitter ; I'd say hes speaking from the viewpoint of a conservationalist/sporthunter, and I share his views.

We didnt get charged by this old boy cause he had been badly wounded in the past by another big male. He was darted, housed for months, and saved from certain death by the landowners ; Whom spent untold Rand to save him, his species,and the chance for OUR kids to see them. like many South African conservationalists are doing.

But money is what makes the world go round, and thats for everyone, and an old male BLK Rhino should have one more charge to make in his life. So his offspring have a future and OUR kids get a chance to have an experience like this.....................J



[ 07-21-2002, 21:36: Message edited by: JHook ]

"""""""""let's not hear about the polar bear, for example, as they a huge part of their resurgance was that the trophy associations took them off their books, for most of the hunting methods being unethical.""""""""""""""

Jeff Im afraid youv been watching to many Disney shows, and reading to many Zoo sign posts. The Polar Bear has always been about as "endangered" as the African Leopard. There was, and is, no logical reason to not allow sporthunting of them ; There has NEVER been a threat to their survival in the wild by sporthunters.

Even today, the lady who sprays her hair with hair spray is a bigger threat to the P-Bear then sporthunters are, as global warming is altering their, and their preys, habitat. Your mis-information belongs on the PETA page, not here, as conservationalist/sporthunters prefer to deal with facts and truths....................J

And if anyone here thinks that it costs "Nothing" to give a BLK Rhino and opportunity to range on his land, then I suggest you write to one of these landowners and ask to see his "purchase Bill" ; His "extra Feed Bill" ; His "Vet and Hel-chopper Bills", and his "Property damage Bills", when the thing gets pissed and tears his fence up, or his house, or his Landrover, or maybe his tracker.

Thats the owners "college money for his kids" that hes spending and he aint gonna do it just so a bunch of Americans can go to sleep at night "all cuddly and warm feeling" cause they know "someone" is saveing the BLK Rhino. Without dollars generated by conservationalist/sporthunters the BLK Rhino has no more chance to survive then our Elk,Deer,Turkey, and Waterfowl had before WE!!!!! stepped in. Theres much more to "Hunting" then just makeing something bleed. You guys shouldnt have to be told that!................J!!!!!!!!!!!

[ 07-21-2002, 21:26: Message edited by: JHook ]

JHook,
Wow! Well said (and illustrated) again! I will side with you and Ray on this one. Thanks for the rhino photos.

My last word on this subject...

JHook, I said free range animals cost a rancher nothing unless he tries to restrain them, or - I will add - profit from them. If somebody buys a black rhino for their ranch then they have accepted those incidental expenses in the interest of the species conservation or in hopes of profit. Both of those things cost money, a lot of money, as I plainly stated. Conservation is expensive in one way or another, either in vast areas of preserved free range or in the resources required to keep wild animals confined that want to roam off preserves (or both). But your own experience of black rhinos, as well as mine, is of a ranch-preserve that successfully supports them with hunting dollars - without the necessity of shooting the rhinos themselves. Your own testimony demonstrates the clear economic feasibility of the approach that I advocate here.

I'm pleased that you got to experience a big bull in the wild and share the photos with us. I can imagine how thrilling that would be. I especially appreciate your attitude of running rather than even considering shooting. That is how I feel. I want to go back and photograph a number of animals that I would prefer not to shoot and I don't want backup. We saw a number of black rhino tracks when we were out hunting in the bush, but never ran into one up close. I know you simply cannot outrun one, but then I was always counting on the general scatter of the group for confusion and him losing interest quickly. The thorn trees were entirely too short and puny to climb.

[ 07-21-2002, 23:55: Message edited by: Harald ]

Posts like this just gripe the hell out of me, and some of you should know better based on your experience....

A lot of jumping to conclusions, such as this is a canned hunt, so how the hell do you know that? I know where there are a lot of Rhino and the acreage is 75,000 to 150,000 acres and that is mighty big plot of bush and you could not hunt it all in a year!!

Then this price thing, The folks that buy these animals to protect and re-introduce them pay about that same price per animal, so when one of them gets old and is going to die anyway, they sell it rather than let it rot in the veld, they get a big price, they paid a big price, thats a free society where socialism does not exist, move to Russia if you have a problem with free trade.

I have never heard so much whining, I can't afford a Rhino, Black or White but I sure don't want to see someone who has worked hard and earned more than I not be able to shoot one, so it can die a lingering death in veld just to keep some of you happy..

What a bunch of BS..............Sorry, but I have never been politically correct in my life and I ain't gonna start here just to satisfy the majority on this board.....

I'd shoot the son of gun in a heart beat if I had the dollars, and it was fair chase in my mind, and legal...

What you have said is what they said 30 years ago about Elephant hunting, your idealistic views were wrong then and they are wrong now...

If the political situations become peacefull and the countries become harmonious to some extent, then the time will come when we can hunt black Rhino at a lesser price, because that is the way it has worked in the past and will work in the future..I recall when a White Rhino was $500,000 and now because of that price alone, everybody jumped on the band wagon and populations rose and prices fell and now you can shoot a White Rhino for $25,000 to 40,000 depending on size...

So there,

What gripes me even worse is when they bring this title up front and I click on page 2 and make a big post, then it comes to light that I have already posted my views several times on this thread, so for that I apoligise, I thought it was a brand new thread, Bye now

Harald read your post and look at all the contradictions in it. To begin with the BLK Rhino doesnt have a chance without PVT ownership buying breeding stock and keeping them in those little 50,000 to 150,000 acre enclosuers. Cause if they dont keep them like that the animal has no chance, neither does the breed.

And a landowner isnt going to run plainsgame only hunts just so he can keep a little Rhino zoo so the worlds people can smile over how the BLK Rhino was saved. Right now its probably more economicaly feasable to sell of BLK Rhino stock to other reserves but hopefully that will one day change. I say "hopefully" cause hopefully one day their numbers will have increased enough to the point of "sell off" brings less dollars then hunting. Thats where the conservationalist/hunter comes in, if they have the dough that is.

And thats the whole point of conservation. To bring the breed back until legal sporthunting can ensure their survival with the revenues it produces. Maybe its at that point now ; I dont know, Im not a BLK Rhino expert. But one thing I do know is its not MY decision to make.

Look at the predictament the cheetah is in now cause our Glorius Govt. wont allow hide imports. In its range PHs and land owners look at the cat as vermin stealing food out of their kids mouths. If hides could be imported the animal would have a dollar value placed on it, and its survival would be ensured. See how much you love cheetahs after a group of them decimates a Blesbok herd , the hunting of which, is putting clothes on your backs.

A ranch owner doesnt "support Rhinos" my friend, and neither would you. He does what you, I, or anyone else would do, and that is "he supports his family". And nobody has any right to "look down their noses at that".

Personaly I hope BLK Rhinos are hunted again and guys can import the head gear. When we can do that you can bet their will be BLK Rhino in the bush for the kids , of our kids, kids..........................J

/

Maybe just weird coinkeedink (sp?), but yesterday I was watching a show on black rhinos and then logged onto the forum and came across this thread... The show was about the removal of all the black rhinos from the chete region. About 16 if I remember correctly. They darted them from land and a helicopter, loaded them on trucks and sent them to a holding pen for a few days. They were then sent to somewhere in Australia. From pure shock of the trip and the drugs given to them, less then 10 survived... These are the things being done to save the black rhino?

I would rather pay 150,000 for a hunt, have that money go to further conservation efforts, ect...

How many rangers would 150,000 dollars pay to keep further control over poachers which continue to target black rhino. This documentary I watched was a no holds bar reality type show, not some animal planet BS. They reported that there are only 100 rangers guarding the border from Zim and I believe Zambia where the poachers come from. They showed the rangers killing 3 poachers...

The problem with the poaching even further is that the dumb ass asians who use the horns are going to drive the price up even more because there are so few left, making it even more lucritive for the poachers to kill the remaining few.

Hunting and use of animals is what funds conservation, atleast the vast majority of it. Orvis, the clothing company, for instance, has a salt water croc belt made from farm raised crocs- the proceeds go to conservation of the wild salties... Money has to be generated somehow and this seems the most viable option at the moment.

If you want to save the black rhino – hunt them legally.

If we, in South Africa, had been able to treat the black rhino the same as his white cousin, (read sport hunting for profit) there would not have been such a huge difference in their in their respective numbers.

I commend the fact that many people on this forum feel strongly about ensuring the survival of species, the black rhino in particular. You support is needed and appreciated, but there’s a real danger that your good intentions might have the opposite effect of what you intended. Ignorance of vital facts, and a surge of emotion that blocks the mind to logical argument, pose a real danger to the survival of species.

Some of the statements made in this debate just don’t hold water, for example:

"nonbreeding" is horsehockey, as males can bred until death

If we take it that old age will be the cause of a natural death, this is unfortunately not true. In the case of mammals the ability, and desire, to reproduce declines with age. If you don’t believe the scientists on this one now – just wait long enough and you’ll experience this phenomenon in the first person. I have personally observed a black rhino bull in the Zimbabwe Midlands that was so old that it took him anywhere between 5 to 10 minutes just to get up from the ground. I bet that he did/could/desired not make any reproductive contribution at that stage.

It has also been suggested that hunting rhino is not sporting, and that it may some how resemble a “canned” situation.

It is true that a rhino hunt can be conducted in a manner that is not considered sporting, and won’t hold up to the principles of fair chase. Unfortunately that also hold true for the hunt of any specie. We have the ability to choose how we hunt whatever. If we, as hunters, choose to hunt a buffalo in an unsporting manner we can, but rhino (black or white) can also be hunted as sporting, challenging and ethically as you’d like to conduct your hunt.

If it pays, it stays – and that is a proven fact. Opening up black rhino for sport hunting will provide a legal financial incentive for people to invest more in the specie. That may not be to the advantage of the specific black rhino to be hunted, but it will sure benefit the specie.

It has been said that elephant and white rhino is not the same as black rhino. This is obviously true in more than just one way. A side from all the other differences, one big difference is the fact that black rhino does not enjoy the benefits of a proven management system based on a free market policy of conservation thru consumptive utilization. Elephant and white rhino have this advantage – and their numbers show the benefit they derive from it.

Interesting thread! Just a couple of observations. I know where Nickudu is coming from as I tend to feel the same way. Subjects, as this one, tend to bring out the emotions due to the enormous respect we have for the game we hunt. I also don't always agree with Ray, especially concerning fences, but I'm in agreement with him on this subject. If the hunt helps save a species we all grew up dreaming of, so be it. If a guy can afford the price, don't rain on his parade, wish him the best and hope he does well. Whether you admit it or not, we'd all love to have the means to hunt where and what we want, whether it's desert sheep, rhino, polar bear, or whatever. One final note; Jonas Savimbi
could have funded some of his operations with money from illegal ivory sales, but the vast majority came from U.S. aid and the illegal diamond trade. His season was closed several months ago when he was ambushed by government troops that "used enough gun."

Joe

P.S. Even though I don't always agree with Ray, I respect his opinions and his right to have those opinions.

I would like to add my 2cents worth.

In June of this year a game auction was held at the Umfolozi/Hluhluwe Game Reserve which I attended. Amoungst the many other species for sale was the Black Rhino. For the record a pair were sold for US$160,000 (1.6 million ZAR)

These will more than likely end up on a game farmers land for further breeding and hopefully produce enough young to assist in the eventual hunting of the species. Because like Ray, Riaan and some others on this thread I believe that hunting and only hunting is going to save this species just like the white rhino and elephant have been saved to a large degree.

Keep coming to hunt our species here in Africa and Africa will always have these species available. Stop and they too will disappear.

All I'm hearing is condescention,in various forms, while placing economics at the heart of decision processes that beg for more. Where have all your voices been the past 30 years? The worlds' creatures are not here solely for the hunters' enjoyment. The rhino is our most fabulous surviving relic of pre-history and all we can come up with is the same old story? "Well, so long as they can be hunted at some dollar figure, that's about all we can hope for." Since when is it such a certainty that funds will be channeled as professed? What of the avenues mentioned earlier as to working to stifle the archaic insanity of mid eastern and oriental markets?? Will you assume the same posture as our oceans are depleted? As our rainforests disappear?? It's not in me to quit so easily in regard to problems that will diminish the quality of life of our decendants. It's no great revelation to me that selective hunting can be of some benefit but many here seem to aspire to little more. Living for the moment and "Now thinking" is at the point of no return in many areas of the natural world. Innumerable examples of failed policy stare us in the face. Why is it you are all so ready to stow away all hope for a better solution in "file 13"? Some here have stopped just short of calling me an idealistic buffoon. Well, if that term defines the pain in my heart, have at it. I stand by all I've said.

/

Alf

You seem to be very clued in. What are the numbers of black rhinos and the numbers of white rhinos to your knowledge?

What would be a "critical" mass in population numbers for black rhino?

My guess is that the black rhinos are less easy to handle even though smaller therefore is "corss-pollination" between herds (what do you call a group of rhinos?) is not as easy. Is this correct.

Thanks

Im going to end my part in this discussion by saying this. And I point my statements to my well meaning countrymen and any assorted Europeans, or other "World Community members" here, again no doubt well meaning.

On my "all of two trips" to RSA I did a lot more then just make things bleed. I asked questions, took a very "well honed objective" look around, saw conservation in action in that country. And without a doubt RSA has the highest level of conservation/science skill, AND DEDICATION I have ever seen, ANYWHERE!

In fact we should be sending our American Game managers there to learn "whats what" instead of typeing our feelings of "whats what" to the South Africans, and people involved in that industry, on this board. I just finished hunting at a very accomplished Rhino reserve and was just blown away with not only the level of knowledge these PVT owners have, but also, the love and dedication they have for the animals.

In fact they even told me they dont like haveing clients hunting the
Whites but they also realize its all part of the big circle and theres no way the Rhino is going to make it without some sport hunting. It doesnt matter what the animal is or where ,"We" , sporthunters are part of the circle, be it wild turkey or rhinos, it doesnt matter. Economics is a big part of the plan no matter what the animal or habitat my friends. Cause they done "paved paradise and put up a parking lot". Without sporthunting wildlife and habitat would crash in Africa as surely as it would in America.

With all due humility I think the BLK Rhino is in the best possible hands it can be in, and thats PVT hands! I saw it in action. The folks involved in that African hunting industry are the best ive ever seen, in all ways!....................................J

Alf-

The black Rhino is not currently at a point where it can be hunted on a regular basis, yes, but there are some out there that would be better off being hunted. Why? Because they would generate much needed money that could save the rest, no?

While the black Rhinos demise to this point may not entirely be poaching, poaching is what will kill the rest if it goes on like it currently is.

Obviously the hunt offered in the original posting will not be entriely sporting- mainly becase the black Rhinos are kept under such tight security, and therefore the rancher knows more then likely where it is, generally, this hunt hopefully will do great good for future black Rhino conservation. That is my hope, atleast...

I am not arguing against you, but just adding to what you've already said...

Sincererly,

Buell

/

Alf

Thank you very much.

"Reproduction of the data is a time robbing task but here goes"

Double thanks.

I understand your comments about a larger startup core population being essential in a faster establishment of viable "herds". I imagine genetics and inbreeding are a key here with less genetic management required.

A question. The 550 white rhino in 1950. Were these all in South Africa (or the vast majority)?
If there are 819 (1992) black rhinos in South Africa, doesn't this indicate a period of approximately 40 to 50 years would establish viable herds (all other things being equal)?

Perhaps the herds are smaller or more separated with Black rhino? Obviously a better plan would be to consolidate the animals in larger herdsbut I guess this is impossible - less on government land(?)

Regarding location, I imagine most whites were in Natal. Black rhino in the old Transvaal Province /Northern Province (still have to learn the new provinces) to the Limpopo.

Not being difficult, just asking out of interest.

I also wonder what happening to the North in Zim. I hunted on Bubiana Conservancy where I believe they had 15 black and 15 white rhino (from memory). How many are left today, or will be left in a couple of years?

Thanks again for your replies.

/

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Here are a few links about black rhino:

http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/pubs/Afrhino.htm

http://www.rhinos-irf.org/

Regards,

Terry

[ 07-23-2002, 17:49: Message edited by: T.Carr ]