quote:

But as Mike said about his well
tested, dependability proven, bolt action weapon, "What
if my firing pin broke the last time I shot this thing
in camp?"

You double guys really make me laugh... do you guys dream this up after several scotches and a cigar or two?

Just think, you have made a sizable investment in your DG safari, traveled halfway around the world to hunt elephant, buffalo, lion, etc., you spend four days on track and finally have your quarry in your sights and your thinking about rifle failure? Seriously? And somehow you are more comfortable with a 90 to 100 year old rifle in your hands? If the rifle doesn't fire and the animal doesn't know you are there what is the difference? Personally I think the whole argument is silly! I agree with the gentlemen who said the nut one has to worry about is the one pulling the trigger!

And when you do hunt Africa for buffalo you will find the 34" buffalo at eight yards much easier to find than a 45" buffalo at any distance... so keep your standards intact, my friend, I will take the 45'er any day!

On a serious note, I do think the double is superior to a bolt gun when 1. hunting elephants 2. on a follow-up of wounded game and 3. as a PH rifle to be used as back-up. But my reasoning is not mechanical superiority, it is two rapid shots from a large cailber rifle that can be used to subdue a potentially dangerous situation.

And the double rifle is a beautiful example of the gunmaker's art providing an exceptional canvas for engraving and fine wood and steel that sometimes seem to grow together rather than be chiseled there by mere mortal's hands.

But for 95% of hunting situations, the pedestrian bolt gun wins out by offering the hunter a precise shot with a telescopic sight. And never once have I heard a PH's story about the guy who didn't kill a trophy because his firing pin broke the preceding day...

BWANAMRM,

1- You have answered that you don't get the "creepy" thoughts
when pulling the trigger on a DG animal with a bolt action.

That is my question from post one, thanks again.

2- True my DR is old, but not everyone's is. Mike's is 1970's
I believe.

Though, I am very tempted by Bailey Bradshaw's D/R Farqy; which
he's building now for those with about 9K on hand.

3- I appreciate that you have the opinion that a D/R is the superior
choice in certain situations. I'll tell you that I agree that in
the great majority of hunting situations the scoped B/A is the best
choice if you want the best odds of success - aka making a killing shot.

Jack,
I believe your last statement about the bolt rifle offering the "best odds of success" pretty much sums it up for the majority of us hunters. By using an iron sighted big caliber double you eliminate a large percentage of your trophy opp's...this according to CTB and others. And that's fine because it's your money and time. If the experience of up close and personal is what you're after rather than a 45" bull then by all means use the double if that's what winds you up. But some of us are more interested in taking that one truly super buff, or lion or even the 70lb or bigger elephant. We spend untold amounts making multiple trips to maybe get one chance at such an animal. Any rifle that limits our chances when that once in a lifetime opportunity comes along just doesn't cut it. For me, if I ever make an elephant hunt I might have a double along, but it won't be the primary weapon.

Gentlemen this thread is a breath of fresh air to AR! This thread has listed all the likes and dislikes, and the reliability issue with both types, without even one intendance of name calling, or anger!

This is the Accurate Reloading forums I joined years ago, this quantity of civility is NOT what I have experienced here on AR for some time, and that lack of civility was the reason I decided to set AR aside for a while, and give it a rest. The exchanges here were simply not worth the aggravation.

There a few things brought up in this thread that are simply not true, but are from lack of knowledge, not a falsehood mentality. There are many things in this exchange that were put down as not true that are absolutely true, also from a position of ignorance rather than simply wanting prove ones self superior!

This, Gentlemen, is what is meant by the exchange of ideas! All theories have merit till physically proven to have no, or less value.

The rifle you take should be the one you shoot best, as long as it is up to the power standard for game hunted. That rifle shout be set-up to your standards, with the sighting equipment you shoot best with, and the rifle must come to battery as if part of you body. People can fu-fu the hedging of one’s bet by making back-up things for things that may, and will certainly, over time, take place. Every person will have his own concerns and his way of backing that up in the field.

Lets think bolt rifles for a second! Most are simply scoped from day one, and there is nothing wrong in that, but the rifle may have a slick barrel without iron sights that the owner never even thought about till he reads this. If his scope fails a long way from home or a gun shop, how will he back this up? He can carry a pre-zeroed extra scope and depending on how it is mounted, he can or cannot remove, and re-install without tools in the field. Here if the scope was mounted in quality Quick-detach mounts and rings, and both scopes were zeroed before leaving home, he is in luck. If not ……WELL. A cheaper way however, would have simply bought the rifle with quality iron sights and learn to shoot them before even mounting a scope. If his scope is mounted in quality Q/D mounts he can utilize the irons in a pinch without the tools. This same situation can work on a double rifle as well. Either type can be hunted with either scope or irons at will, and in both cases a second SPECIALIZED scope for a different purpose can be utilized for things like lion or leopard over bait.

It will be argued as long as both types are used, but as long as the arguments are conducted like a discussion and tempers are kept in check, much will be learned by both sides! That is the Accurate Reloading I like, and I want to congratulate you all on a very civil discussion here! My hat is off to you all!

............................ ......

I haven't owned a lot of doubles (rifles), but have owned roughly 200 rifles and a like number of shotguns over the years, with the bulk of the shotguns being doubles. I'll have to say, that after having wanted a double for years, when I finaly got a few, I was really disappointed in their real useability. Yes, you can, but it's a pain for general hunting. Given my abilities with iron sights, a double for me would be strictly an elephant tool. For anything else, a bolt would give much better results.

As to reliability, I think the bolt guns I have owned would win hands down. The doubles I have owned have been mostly higher grade shotguns, often by the same makers in the rifle business, but they tend to break much more often. Maybe it's me, but a lot of the breakdowns I have had with doubles have resulted in the gun not opening. This leaves you with a true single shot backup. Not sure how good that is.

Jack,
Never take a used rifle hunting. You never know when it might break. This is the story you have to sell to your wife.

60 years of hunting, and one broken firing pin. It was in a Browning Auto-5 shotgun, and it didn't fail to fire, it went full auto when the broken part of the pin jammed in the firing pin hole. Lots of excitement in the dove field.

If you're concerned with whether or not you broke your firing pin the last time you fired your bolt rifle, simply cock the rifle (if it has a Model 70 safety, which it should), set the safety in the middle position, withdraw the bolt and unscrew the bolt shroud, leaving the whole firing pin and mainspring open for inspection. If all is well, simply screw the firing mechanism back in the bolt, and you're all set, with a peaceful frame of mind, for your next shot at dangerous game.

With a double rifle, this means unscrewing the firing pin bushings from the standing breech, if your double rifle is so equipped. Otherwise, the lock has to be dismounted to get at the firing pins to examine them for incipient cracks.

I have hunted and shot dangerous game with both bolt guns and double rifles. I shot an elephant and a couple of buffalo with my double rifle just to see if I would prefer it. I shot both my lion and my leopard with my double rifle, mostly because it is equipped with a scope and my heavy bolt gun is not. Had I had a scope sighted .375 H&H bolt gun along, I might well have used it, except that with a given barrel length, the double rifle is shorter overall and handier to bring into action.

For most of my elephant and buffalo, however, and for following up a wounded lion in heavy brush, I relied on my .505 with a 22" barrel, prefering the instantly available four shots to the instantly available two shots of my double rifle. My speed with bolt manipulation allowed me to put four shots into a running buffalo and four shots into a running rhino, the longest of the shots being maybe 50 yards.

However, not everyone can manipulate a bolt that fast, or handle that amount of recoil, so I would not quibble with someone else preferring a double rifle in that situation. I can only point out, that had I used the double rifle in both those situations, it is unlikely that I would have gotten four shots off in the same amount of time.

The only thing I ever worried about breaking was not firing pins, but extractors on my double rifle. For this reason, I carried a set of fitted extractors for both my .458WM and .375 H&H. I have never had to use them.

quote:

Gentlemen this thread is a breath of fresh air to AR! This thread has listed all the likes and dislikes, and the reliability issue with both types, without even one intendance of name calling, or anger!

Hey, Mac, why don't you shut the F*** up!!! ....just kiddin! I was as surprised as anyone :-)

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
He made an instant promise to himself that he'd not again go on a D.G. hunt without a double rifle; that two firing pins, two triggers, etc. just made all the sense in the world when getting close to beasts that can, and will, kill men who come to kill them.

I have no doubt that DRs have huge advantages in certain situations.

And everyone should hunt with whatever they want...

But anyone who believes that a DR is more reliable than a Mauser based bolt rifle is deluding themselves.

The reliability of a DR may have been a legitimate point in 1900, but in 2011 it is a bit of a joke(IMHO).

The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you.

Boom-Boom is vastly preferred in a crisis. Say it aloud.
Boom-Boom is faster than boom, work the bolt, boom. Manipulating a bolt is much more involved for the second shot. An additional series of muscle memory motions are required. Simpler is better.

Rich

quote:

For most of my elephant and buffalo, however, and for following up a wounded lion in heavy brush, I relied on my .505 with a 22" barrel, prefering the instantly available four shots to the instantly available two shots of my double rifle. My speed with bolt manipulation allowed me to put four shots into a running buffalo and four shots into a running rhino, the longest of the shots being maybe 50 yards.

When it comes to the crunch I have serious reservations you would get those 4 shots into a buffalo or lion running towards you
(differentiate between "running" and "charging") and that is what makes a DR so versatile and reliable in situations it was primarily designed for. (IMO)

quote:

The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you.

Maybe it was the way I was raised or the business I am in but when someone says always, absolutely, or in every way, I get suspicious.

Leopard on bait in the dusk... an open sighted DR? Not me... or a lion on a buff kill in the early dawn at 75 yards? I don't think so! Even an ol' dagga boy at 50 yards in dappled jess where I can only see a dark shape with my naked eyes...

In each of those situations I hesitate to say if I would take the shot if I had a double in my hands. Now a scope sighted .416. Most probably.

When I read the Double Rifle Forum you guys are happy to get bullets within 2"s at 50 yards, much less 100. Crossing bullets, ground rifling to make them shoot to a point of aim, soldering on barrels coming apart are just a few of the problems I read about over there. And again, you guys bounce on to this thread and claim the DR is ALWAYS superior to a bolt rifle. Maybe in a Capstick story...

QUOTE]Originally posted by fujotupu:
[When it comes to the crunch I have serious reservations you would get those 4 shots into a buffalo or lion running towards you
(differentiate between "running" and "charging") and that is what makes a DR so versatile and reliable in situations it was primarily designed for. (IMO)[/QUOTE]

To make it a little clearer, the rhino did involve a charge. The first shot did, that is. The first shot turned him and the other three were made at him travelling in the opposite direction.

However, in a charge situation, I would not count on getting more than one shot in, and I would try to make it the best ever. The video clips of a charging lion or leopard visible for 100 yards create the impression that this is the likely situation. My feeling is that more than one well aimed shot with any kind of rifle is unlikely and that a charge of fifty yards or less is what one should expect.

Hitting an animal hard enough to slow him down is a possibility, but not one to count on, and with a slowed down animal, four shots will trump two, any time.

Double rifle shooters in general seem to totally discount the time required to recover from recoil. An experienced bolt gunner can cycle his action in the same amount of time it takes him to get back on target.

It's the same old controversy which used to go on between skeet shooters who used automatic shotguns and those who used pumps. The fact is that an experienced pump shotgun shooter can get off his second shot in doubles just as quickly as another shooter using an automatic (or an over and under).

An International Skeet shooter, which I was at the same time I was hunting in Africa, on Station 8 is standing facing the low house, 63 feet away, with his gun in the ready position, gun stock touching his hip bone. When he calls for the bird, there is a delay of up to three seconds, and he is not allowed to mount his gun until the target is in view. This means the shooter is reacting to the target, not the target to the shooter, as in American skeet.

When it appears, the target is travelling at roughly 100 miles per hour. The shooter is required to hit it before it passes him. It makes no difference what kind of gun the shooter is shooting, he will be straining his faculties to the utmost to get off a single well placed shot.

Those who want to prepare themselves for the experience of a charge would do well to get in a little International Skeet in the way of practice, and not confine themselves to shooting at a target trundled in their direction on wheels.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you.

Is that why you were issued a double rifle in Vietnam?

Rich, you are way off on this one........

To answer the question that many of you already have with conviction, I must say that my reason for not ever hunting with a double rifle is #1. I certainly could not justify the cost of such a rifle (not with putting 4 of of our kids through the university) #2. I never even shot a double rifle, so that would take me a while perhaps to get confident and accurate with one. I am now to old to change horses in the middle of a stream. My bolt guns have served me well and I trust them with confidence. I expect of the double gun is necessary, the PH can handle that chore on the hunt!

Guys I'd just like to politely remind everyone that my opening post
was NOT about which type of rifle is better for DG. I asked if non-
D/R users got creepy thoughts about their rifle possibly failing to
function at the second that they were to fire at a DG beast. And
I asked this because of what retreever had told me; that he
got those creepy thoughts when he was about to fire at his 1st ele-
phant with his B/A rifle. I also asked if you did get those thoughts
how you got past them. Not trying to be a "cop" or anything, just
trying to keep us on the original track.

[quote]Retreever had told me; that he got those creepy thoughts when he was about to fire at his 1st elephant with his B/A rifle.

Jack, don't pay attention to Retreever...that man is chock full of creepy thoughts.!!!!

(Right Mike!!!!)

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
I asked if non-D/R users got creepy thoughts about their rifle possibly failing to
function at the second that they were to fire at a DG beast.

I am susceptible to many irrational fears, but failure to fire at the moment of truth is not one of them.

It is very rare for a rifle to suddenly fail to fire without having a history of doing so. The only two exceptions I can think of would be an extremely cold or and extremely wet environment. Neither situation is common in Africa.

Not to get the thread off track, but I have an alternate question for DR users.

As someone pointed out earlier; "If a bolt rifle fails to fire on a first shot, the unwounded animal simply walks away."

So the question for you DR users is: what if the firing pin in your second barrel was unknowingly broken? If you fire and wound the animal with the first shot, you are now holding a club as the second barrel will not fire when the moment of truth comes.

So for you DR guys, do you guys worry that the first barrel will get the action started but the second barrel might fail and get you killed?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you.

Is that why you were issued a double rifle in Vietnam?

Rich, you are way off on this one........

...............................

JBrown , and others here, why is it that every time someone post anything to do with dangerous game hunting some one has to bring in the fact that a machinegun is best suited to fighting hundreds of enemy soldiers who are armed with the same capabilities?

Anyone knows, or should know that warfare and hunting of dangerous game are two entirely different things, one having nothing to do with the other. The only firearms that were designed for warfare, that had more than one shot before re-loading were only an improvement for that purpose because they were repeaters. At first they were not very reliable but were improved up to the 98 Mauser, and were about as reliable as one could make a hunting rifle that was a repeater. This made the Mauser “THE” war weapon because it avoided many human mistakes by eliminating the gateway to them. This system became the best of the best among repeaters for HUNTING of dangerous game because of some of the “IDIOT PROOFING”, as well as making it a repeater that could be depended on to work in all manner of conditions. This, however did not change the application of a weapon in warfare, where everything is based on volley fire techniques, where one fills the air with bullets from several weapons on the way to an enemy that is doing the same thing. This has little to no resemblance to the hunting of dangerous game, where there is usually one target, and a desire to take only that one target, with a firearm that is as reliable as one can make it. In the case of a combat fire team, if one rifle jams or runs dry the rest of the fire team takes up the slack till the OTS weapon can be cleared, or re-loaded. As you well know this is not the drill with an elephant, or charging lion!

Next come the example of the mod 700 push feed rifle being used for snipers! Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that a sniper works from long distance and from deep concealment, firing one shot on target, and going quiet to avoid position detection. The rifle could be a single shot and be perfect for the sniper’s job, so PF is not a worry because the bolt is worked very carefully. I certainly don’t think any sniper, worth his salt, would choose that rifle for block-to-block urban warfare where he needs the volume fire of a fire team.

All I’m saying here is the war weapons and hunting rifles for hunting dangerous game have nothing to do with what a GI is issued for jungle fighting in Viet Nam, and I’m sure you knew that before you posted your dig at ISS, who also understands the difference, maybe better than most here!

The best of the two types of rifle discussed for the hunting of dangerous game in Africa will never be stilled here or any place else to the satisfaction of all, and that is the way it should be. Choose what ever works best for “YOU”, and work around your choices’s pit-falls. However totally disregarding each type’s pit-falls simply because you like that type of rifle makes no sense at all, to me.

My opinion is the more movements one is required to make for each shot fired the more likely a mistake will be made. Starting with the pulling the trigger to fire the first shot, and bolt action requires 7 distinct movements before the second shot can be fired. These seven movements are required for every shot fired there after as well. Most big bore bolt rifles are one in the tube, and three down, so that a very good man with a bolt action will make 28 moves for the four shots. In each of the seven moves is an opening for Mr. Murphy to stick his long nose in you affaires. This with a very good man with a bolt rifle that keeps his rifle at his shoulder, which I don’t see many client hunters do.

With a double rifle starting with the rifle loaded and at the shoulder, the first two shots require three movements, #1 pulling the trigger for the first shot, and #2 moving the trigger finger to the second trigger, and #3 pulling the trigger for the second shot. Next we have the re-load. This is the place where many will make a mistake, if one is to be made. In this case the movements are #1 breaking the action open ejecting the empties if fitted with ejectors. #2 pulling two rounds of the back of the trigger hand, #3 dropping the two cartridges in the chambers, #4 closing the rifle, #5 re-shouldering the rifle, and #6 pulling the first trigger, #7 pulling the second trigger!

Now lets look at this! We have 28 movements for four shots in a bolt rifle, and 10 in a double rifle with ejectors, and 11 movements if the double is fitted with extractors, the eleventh movement being tipping the rifle back to dump the empties

Al this is assuming that both shooters are equally proficient with their choise of rifle type! The four shots in a bolt rifle are no advantage in time spent over four shot from a double rifle with an equally proficient shooter of both types. Since the four shot in the bolt rifle being no faster than four shot of the same general recoil of each, only leaves no difference that counts. The 28 movements required for the bolt gun, compared to the 10 (or 11 with extractor) give far more openings for mistakes with the bolt gun. especially one with a scope and no iron sights.
.........................................................

Now as suggested by Biebs below!

quote:

MacD37
Certainly the bolt rifle has advantages over the double rifle, but it also has disadvantages to the double rifle, and for the hunting of large bite-backs in African or the alders of Alaska the double rifle has far fewer disadvantages then the bolt rifle, especially a bolt rifle wquote:
Gentlemen this thread is a breath of fresh air to AR! This thread has listed all the likes and dislikes, and the reliability issue with both types, without even one intendance of name calling, or anger!

quote:

Hey, Mac, why don't you shut the F*** up!!! ....just kiddin! I was as surprised as anyone :-)

I think that is good advice to which I will take to heart right here, and now !



…………………………………..BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Not to get the thread off track, but I have an alternate question for DR users.

As someone pointed out earlier; "If a bolt rifle fails to fire on a first shot, the unwounded animal simply walks away."

So the question for you DR users is: what if the firing pin in your second barrel was unknowingly broken? If you fire and wound the animal with the first shot, you are now holding a club as the second barrel will not fire when the moment of truth comes.

So for you DR guys, do you guys worry that the first barrel will get the action started but the second barrel might fail and get you killed?

Well below is my best guess on what to do when there's a failure with
the second firing of a D/R; and answers to both of your questions as best
as I can; and a correction to one of your above statements [made red by me]
and a response to the earlier sited statement made green by me:

If there is a charge, then like the B/A user you got your one shot off
and that's that; the beast is either downed and you reload 2 and shoot
again for safety; or the beast gets to you if shot number one was not on
the mark to stop it. If NOT a charge situation and the second rifle in
the double rifle fails, you open the action and reload both bbls and carry
on with shooting if needed and a shot is available to you. If there's no
shot to take you inspect the rifle and subject piece of ammo to see if you
can determine the cause of the failure. Then you'ed reload and start to
follow up as the situation dictates. The failure may be AMMO related; that's
why you reload both bbls. True that a failure in a B/A can be ammo too; so
if you got a CLICK using a B/A upon pulling the trigger of course you'ed
rack one out and a new round in if you could before the beast gets to you.
It's been agreed that with a B/A you'll not likely get off a second shot
during a charge before the beast reaches you though; if you did not down
him with the first shot. With a D/R I'd point out that with the 2nd rifle firing
pin failure you're not holding a club; you're still holding a working rifle that
needs a reload to fire more ammo. It's the B/A that becomes a club when
it's one firing pin breaks. I am betting that a hunter of D/G who is using
a D/R doesn't worry about a second or first rifle failure that could possibly
result in said hunter's death or serious injury.
If a bolt action fails to fire on the first round and the elephant is as close
as some of 450#2's [Tony] have been, it may not just walk away; it may kill
you within a second or three. True also for very close D/G of any species I'll
wager.

quote:

I think that is good advice to which I will take to heart right here, and now !

Mac, you are still the "Oracle" of this website! Keep it up.

Jack, I have more creepy thoughts about the reliability of the ammo. After many years of trap shooting I have experienced and seen many misfires of factory ammo. I have seen bloopers and some with apparently no powder and others with defective primers. IMHO there is a much greater probability of a misfire than a gun malfunction. A PH buddy examines every shell his client brings if he is a reloader. He has had the head pulled off tired brass reloaded too many times and had mixed ammo that would not chamber because it was not run through the gun before leaving home. We had a long discussion along these lines and his wish was every client would bring a reliable 375 with a 1x4 scope set on 1 power. His clients were usually 50+ years old and in reality the iron sights of a double caused problems. His favorite client double rifle story was a Spanish hunter with his new double for elephant. Bang-bang and two hits to a rear ankle. The ph shot once through the shoulder and as usual 75 yards later the elepant fell over. My PH friend congratulated the client on a perfect heartshot and said he had fired to hamstring the elephant. I really think very few clients are really as proficient with a double as they think they are.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you.

Is that why you were issued a double rifle in Vietnam?

Rich, you are way off on this one........

...............................

JBrown , and others here, why is it that every time someone post anything to do with dangerous game hunting some one has to bring in the fact that a machinegun is best suited to fighting hundreds of enemy soldiers who are armed with the same capabilities?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All I’m saying here is the war weapons and hunting rifles for hunting dangerous game have nothing to do with what a GI is issued for jungle fighting in Viet Nam, and I’m sure you knew that before you posted your dig at ISS, who also understands the difference, maybe better than most here!

Mac
I'm with you, I hate when people use the war weapon argument. I only used it to point out how wrong Rich's statement was. Keep in mind, Rich said: "The double is superior in every way hunting something that is prone to hurt you."

If the double was superior "in every way". This argument would have been settled long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Now lets look at this! We have 28 movements for four shots in a bolt rifle, and 10 in a double rifle with ejectors, and 11 movements if the double is fitted with extractors, the eleventh movement being tipping the rifle back to dump the empties

Two things to keep in mind: those movements are not equal, and most importantly, the DR requires all almost all of those movements between the second and third shot.

The fact that the bulk of a DR's slowness comes between shot 2 and 3 is important in a charge situation that begins at some distance.

If you see the wounded cat lying down at 35 yards(or buffalo at 15) and take a shot as it rises to start its charge, you are now holding a single shot. If the second shot fails to stop the oncoming beast there will be no time to reload a DR. A bolt rifle gives you a chance to get that third shot.

In the real world the DR user will usually hold that first shot a bit longer knowing that he will only get two chances.

The BR user can take that first shot while the animal is still a ways out because he knows that he will have multiple bullets in reserve.

I know a lot of guys are fast with their DR, but I would bet that very few can reload when the animal is 15 yards out and closing.

My point: neither type is better in all situations.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Jack, I have more creepy thoughts about the reliability of the ammo. After many years of trap shooting I have experienced and seen many misfires of factory ammo. I have seen bloopers and some with apparently no powder and others with defective primers. IMHO there is a much greater probability of a misfire than a gun malfunction. A PH buddy examines every shell his client brings if he is a reloader. He has had the head pulled off tired brass reloaded too many times and had mixed ammo that would not chamber because it was not run through the gun before leaving home.

LJS you are quite correct tha many do not do thier their home work before they arrive in camp. Be it bolt, single shot, or double rifle, all ammo should be weighed after loading, and tried in every chamber it is likely to be fired from. However this is operator failure not rifle reliability.

quote:

We had a long discussion along these lines and his wish was every client would bring a reliable 375 with a 1x4 scope set on 1 power. His clients were usually 50+ years old and in reality the iron sights of a double caused problems. His favorite client double rifle story was a Spanish hunter with his new double for elephant. Bang-bang and two hits to a rear ankle. The ph shot once through the shoulder and as usual 75 yards later the elepant fell over.

The opinion that every client should bring the rifle the "PH" chooses sounds a little elitest to me. However in this case he would be correct more often than not!

OTOH what makes that PH think the shots posted here would have been any better with a scoped rifle? It is clear that the client hunter couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle, no matter what sights he was using! [COLOR]

quote:

My PH friend congratulated the client on a perfect heartshot and said he had fired to hamstring the elephant. I really think very few clients are really as proficient with a double as they think they are.

[COLOR:BLUE]The congratulations only served to grease the "TIP" so it would slide into the PH's hand! Now what did you PH have to say about whether the bolt rifle he suggests should have good working iron sights in addtion to the scope? Further why is everyone so set that a double rifle not be scoped if the shooter needs glass for help with his vision? If a shooter can shoot with iorn sights what is wrong with useing them, and if he can benafit from having a scope as well, then why is that a sin if it is on a double rifle. We are dicussing rifle types, not sights. Both can be made and mounted with both types of sights, but neither makes one better than the other simply if both are using the same sight.

It seems from what I read on the internet that a bolt rifle is always scoped, but not always fitted with iron sights. This may make sense to some who oly hunt deer, and elk, but it certainly doesn't make sense to me if the target is dangerous game. OTOH, all double rifles are fitted with irons, but not always fitted with a scope. This is the case often, but IMO any bolt rifle that may be used for dangerous game should be fitted with quality ironsights whether or not it has a scope, and all dangerous game chamberings in double rifles NEED proper open sights, and IMO all should be fitted as well with facility for a scope when needed.

So, is it that bolt guys don't like iron sights, or double rifles? I think I already know the true answer to that question, and that is most who fu fu double rifles do so as an excuse for not buying one. You know "They cost too much!' or "They only have iron sights!" or "They are no accurate!"

Gentlemen I've hunter some dangerous game, and not just with double rifles. In fact, most of my rifle hunting has been with CRF bolt rifles, some with only irons, and some with both scope and irons. I have great faith in my DGR bolt rifles,however even though all have irons, most have scopes as well, and none of them have slick barrels and scope only. My doubles as of today only one has a scope, but over the years most of my doubles have at one time or another had scopes as well as irons. Neither of these sighting conditions made ether type more reliable, only more versitile. Reliability will always be better with quality irons than with a scope if either sight is the only thing on it! Still here we are discussing the reliability of bolt rifles, and double rifle regardless of which sighting is fitted.

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quote:

So, is it that bolt guys don't like iron sights, or double rifles? I think I already know the true answer to that question, and that is most who fu fu double rifles do so as an excuse for not buying one. You know "They cost too much!' or "They only have iron sights!" or "They are no accurate!"

And then again, some of us are just not as enamored with them as as you, Jack and Mike are. Cost may play a factor to some, but I can easily afford a double. I just see it as a specialized piece of equipment that has numerous limitations in the field. Redundant for me in my rifle line-up, heavy and marginally accurate, but that is my opinion. I said this before and will again, I support your right to hunt with whatever weapon you choose so long as you don't endanger anyone. Bow, be my guest, pistol, of course, lever action, cool...

I know this makes you double guys see red that you cannot convince us all of the "superiority" of the double rifle. As I said before, they have their place and are superior in a few instances but even Harry Selby saw the practicality of carrying a bolt rifle for many years as his primary weapon of choice.

But Jack's infintesimally small statistical probablity of a firing pin breaking on a bolt rifle or view that every DG animal will charge the minute he sees you is just not my experience or the view of many of the professionals I have hunted with. And I chuckle when Jack brings up Mike or Tony to his defense as having "been there, done that". Not to be arrogant but I have too, numerous times, so does my experience count less because I don't carry a double? Same goes for other posters who don't agree with your position, some of whom hunt Africa regularly, does their experience also count less?

Split hairs all you want at this point, basically this is arguing among folks whose minds aren't gonna change, so I will just split period.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
My opinion is the more movements one is required to make for each shot fired the more likely a mistake will be made. Starting with the pulling the trigger to fire the first shot, and bolt action requires 7 distinct movements before the second shot can be fired. These seven movements are required for every shot fired there after as well. Most big bore bolt rifles are one in the tube, and three down, so that a very good man with a bolt action will make 28 moves for the four shots. In each of the seven moves is an opening for Mr. Murphy to stick his long nose in you affaires. This with a very good man with a bolt rifle that keeps his rifle at his shoulder, which I don’t see many client hunters do.

Not to belabor the point, but there is a basic misconception at work here about operating a bolt action, or at least operating a bolt action as an experienced shooter does.

When I began as a skeet shooter, like many others, I used a Winchester Model 12 shotgun. After each shot, I was required to pull the foreend backwards, which unlocked the action, extracted the fired case from the chamber and ejected it fron the receiver, and then push the foreend forward, which picked up a fresh shell from the magazine, chambered it, and locked the action, making it ready for the next shot. Although six separate functions were performed, my motions consisted solely of pulling the foreened back and pushing it forward.

Similarly, when I fired my M1 rifle, the operating rod was propelled to the rear by the gas excaping from the barrel into the gas cylindar, the operating rod cammed the bolt open, which at the same time carried out primary extraction of the fired cartridge case, it then carried out secondary extraction, by drawing the cartridge case out of the chamber and then ejecting it. At that point, the compressed recoil spring took over, forcing the operating rod back into its original position, and at the same time picking up a fresh cartridge from the magazine, chambering it in the barrel and then locking the bolt into the receiver. Again six operations performed, but only the back and forth motion of the operating rod performed them.

When I operate a bolt action (and I have been participating in rapid fire matches with a bolt action for over 50 years now), my hand executes two motions. First, my index finger slides under the bolt handle, forcing it upwards and to the rear, carrying out the same function as the gas driven operating rod of the M1, and secondly, my forefinger then propells the bolt forward and downward, until it has reached its original position, again carrying out all the functions of the operating rod propelled by the recoil spring.

My technique has evolved over the years to something I can rely on, but I am still not up to the standards of the "Old Contemptables" of the British Army in World War I, who reputedly could fire 40 shots per minute with their Lee-Enfields. I did manage, however, during one stressful situation in the National Matches, to get five aimed shots off in ten seconds, keeping all of the shots in the "black" at 200 yards.

This is nothing unusual. The ranges at Camp Perry are full of shooters who can do as well, or better.


When I fired my Model 12 shotgun, the action almost opened itself, the foreend propelled, as it were, by the force of the recoil, so that recovering from the recoil and at the same time searching for the second clay target and homing in on it were all in the same motion with closing the bolt. Similarly, with a bolt action, the opening of the bolt takes place while the rifle is still in recoil and the closing of the bolt at the same time as the recovery from recoil is carried out. In target shooting, with a heavy match rifle and relatively light loaded ammunition, this may merely be a question of reacquiring the target, but with a heavy rifle, of the type I use for dangerous game, it is a noticeable action.

I switched from a Model 12 to a Browning Superposed for skeet shooting years ago, and eventually progressed to a Perazzi, but the ability to use a pump shotgun successfully has never deserted me and is still put to use in the duck blind, where I use a Browning 3 1/2" Magnum pump.

Of course, reloading an empty gun rapidly is not an issue on the skeet field, although it may be in the duck blind, but it is incontestable that a repeater outperforms a double under some hunting conditions.

As I say, I have used a double rifle against dangerous game and will continue to do so, given the opportunity, but its so called undisputed superiority is something I will not concede.

BWANAMRM, I think you miss my point all together, because I have zero problem with hunting dangerous game with a bolt rifle properly set up, and as I stated I have taken far more dangerous game with a bolt rifle than with a double rifle, and certainly 50 times the amount of general game with a bolt or single shot than with a double rifle.

I dearly love a finely made CRF big bore bolt rifle and own many that I use regularly. There is no denying that a bolt rifle is generally more versatile than a double rifle, and for the hunting of any game animal that is generally shot at longer range, it is tops! Those are facts, not opinion. However IMO there are places where the double rifle is the better choice mechanically.

As you already know there are times and conditions where both types can be superior to the other. IMO if you are good with your bolt, and are not so good with a double, then the proper choice for "YOU" is the bolt, hands down! There are many who have zero use for a double rifle, and you seem to be one of those people. There is no sin in that, and I would never, even if I had the power, insist you use any firearm you didn't want to use. This is what I meant about the PH who wants everyone to come to his camp with a scoped 375H&H rifle no matter the terrain, or target. IMO that is being one way on his part.

I went on a short safari a few years ago with a short list of animals I wanted. Some plains game, some dangerous game, but with little time to take them all. I chose to leave my double rifle at home and go with a CRF, FN Mauser rifle fitted with Warne Quick-detach scope, and good iron sights, for back-up. The rifle was zeroed 2.5 inches high at 100 yards and I knew where that rifle hit from muzzle, out to 350 yards with my 300gr .375 Nosler partitions, and Barnes mono-metal solids. The PH wanted me to re-zero dead on at 100 yards, I refused. This is because I would have had to learn the trajectory all over again. I took Hippo, Buffalo, Impala, wildebeest, wart hog, zebra, at ranges from 30 yards to 250 yards all with one shot kills except for the impala which required two. IMO if I had done what the PH wanted the out come would have been far different! So what I’m saying is, just because the title of PH preclude his name doesn’t make him God. The above is a case for the versatility of the scoped bolt rifle, but I must say here if I had taken my double also, I certainly would have used it over the 375 H&H bolt rifle for my Buffalo, and would have been at no disadvantage, on any of the animals other than the impala. I also had one place where if I had been using a bolt rifle I would likely not be writing this today!

There are PHs and then there are PH wana-bes and in many cases the client knows more about firearms than the PH, and like you especially what works best for him.
. I'm a lover of all well made firearms, and own a hundred or so of all types. from single shot pistols to big bore double rifles, and I can shoot them all quite well. No matter what one's favorite is there are conditions where something else is superior mechanically.

Basically the hunting of dangerous game is an up close affair. Not because they all charge, which they rarely do, but because dangerous game is not dangerous at longer range so what would be the point? By that definition alone the weapons are basically close in types. When you get in close the one you use best is the proper choice, but if you use both equally well at this range, then IMO the choice is the one less likely to present a mechanical problem in it’s operation.

Here is where the difference comes to the forefront. This is not confined to a charge, but is also to avoid escape of the wounded target animal. If the animal charges or runs, the same responsibility exists, if you don't stop him before he get to you, or if he gets into the weeds, then he becomes very dangerous, and the next encounter is likely to be very close, and with no room for mistakes. At this point is where you need every mechanical advantage you can muster, and here is where your choice will matter most. I have no doubt your choice would be your favorite bolt rifle that works for you, and I applaud that choice.

This in no way means that would be the best choice for others who are not a proficient as you with that type of rifle, nor is it better for others who are not proficient with a double rifle. These choices do not change the mechanical superiority of one type over the other for this close in purpose. Certainly I would not suggest a person use a rifle he was not proficient with, no matter what choice it is.

BWANAMRM, I use your post simply because you brought up many of the questions folks here want answers to, when choosing a rifle for their first DGR safari. This was not personal with me, but simply explaining the difference between the two major types, so that the reader has all the pitfalls of both types. I totally agree with you that a person should use what he handles, and shoots best for any firearms purpose, be it long range target or in-your-face charge of a very dangerous, and determined animal that can and will kill you if you make even the slightest mistake!

BWANA, I apologize if my post seemed to be aimed at you personally because that was not my intention! Because we may disagree on the finer points of both types of DGR rifles, makes neither one of us wrong, just simply disagree! IMO, that is what these forums are for! The exchange of ideas!

I don't think anyone has mentioned on this thread, but may have missed it.

The use of optics on double rifles is becoming more & more prevalent, although it turns the stomach of many here.

With my ailing eyes, I need a scope on any double rifle, and have one on each of mine. My .375 Merkel is very accurate out to 150 yards (the longest shots I've taken thus far), but I still have my iron sights for close up work.

I use the Recknagel quick release mounts and rings, and can literally take a scope on or off in about 2-3 seconds.

One would generally carry the double without the scope mounted, and have the scope/mounts in a pouch on your side for very quick mounting when a longer shot is needed the few seconds are available.

Just food for thought.

Mike

Earlier boxlock Westley Richards doubles have a one-piece cocking lever. I have no idea if this is a unique feature or not, but it is fact, as I learnt from personal experience.

Just such a cocking lever broke on my own Westley Richards double. The effect was that 1. both ejectors tripped the moment the beast was opened; and 2. neither lock could be coaxed to lock for either love or money. I've since given this business of "two guns in one if one fails you've still got the other" a bit of serious thought...

An isolated example? You bet! However, none of this "boom-boom is always best" bullshit from wannabe's for me. "Boom-boom" doesn't always happen as planned, especially if you find yourself with a VERY expensive firearm that's just been rendered as effective as a club literally miles and miles from the nearest even remotely competent gunsmith.

I have a Brno 602 that travels nearly everywhere with me in the hunting fields. there's a reason for that.

I think the type of weapon is a personal choice,mechanical breakdown can happen with any style of weapon,I love to hunt with Double Rifles,but as jvw375 just related to us failures can and will occur,I personally feel more comfortable with newer production DR'S,I have first hand experienced trigger failure with my new Heym ph 450 /400,the front trigger went,the back trigger still functioned but it would have been useless anyways,it took about 20 lbs of pressure to squeeze it,two trips to the gunsmith and she is shooting great now,I have hunted and will hunt with the four types of weapons that I own,single shots,BA's,DR's and levers,but before every hunt I shoot a lot and get very comfortable with my firearms and ammunition,and maybe that's why I do not get any creepy thoughts in the field.

XAUSA mechanically. I use the same technique with a bolt rifle fire, and cycled at the shoulder. If however you film your very fast and fluid bolt work, and play it back in slow motion, you will readily see that all the moves are there. No mater ho fast or smooth you do it, and bolt handle must#1 rise, passed the recoil shoulder before it can #2 start back, to eject the spent case, and it must #3 move forward before it can chamber a new round, and before #4 it can have the handle turned down, then the trigger hand must move #5 to the grip, and #6 pull the trigger.

I'm pretty fast with a bolt rifle myself, but the moves are there even if you are not aware of them, because it is physically impossible to avoid all the moves that are required to work a bolt.

Your example of the pump compared to an auto, is fine for the difference between those tow firearms but has little to do with the difference between a bolt rifle and a double rifle. Neither of the slide action or Simi auto are used for dangerous game hunting in Africa. Some do use them for follow-up on Leopard, but that will not be me.

In the case of in close dangerous game in Africa when milliseconds count 40 shots in one minute wouldn't get the job done! that is 1.5 seconds per shot and for 40 shots would be almost impossible for that many shots. What you need is four shots on target of about 6-8 inches starting at 30-40 yards and ending on the end of you barrel, barrels, in four seconds or less with out making any mistakes. This can be done with a double rifle, I've done it in four seconds flat even with forgetting an auto safety and trying to pull shot 3 with the safety on. If this rifle had been fitted with a manual safety I could possibly shaved another second off that time, and if this had been a charging lion that extra second may have cost me my life, or at least a fine mauling. The target was 8 inches with a 2 inch white X-ring bull in the middle. For four shots the highest possible score would be 40 points if all four shots hit the X-ring. Misses of the black were not counted. My score was 36 points of a possible 40 points in four seconds flat! Time started with the first shot and ended with the firing of the fourth shot, with a re-load after two shots.

Forgetting the safety was the only mistake made but the openings with bolt rifle are two and a half more than with the double rifle. I'm pretty quick with my bolts, but I don't think I could do that well with them.

Still as I told BWANAMRM, it is better to use what you work best, but that fact doesn't change the mechanical superiority of one over the other given expert performance of the shooters being equal!

I love hunting with all nice firearms, and use all types but like everyone else, I must recognize the fact that some are more prone to malfunction than others when worked rapidly.

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
Earlier boxlock Westley Richards doubles have a one-piece cocking lever. I have no idea if this is a unique feature or not, but it is fact, as I learnt from personal experience.

Just such a cocking lever broke on my own Westley Richards double. The effect was that 1. both ejectors tripped the moment the beast was opened; and 2. neither lock could be coaxed to lock for either love or money. I've since given this business of "two guns in one if one fails you've still got the other" a bit of serious thought...

An isolated example? You bet! However, none of this "boom-boom is always best" bullshit from wannabe's for me. "Boom-boom" doesn't always happen as planned, especially if you find yourself with a VERY expensive firearm that's just been rendered as effective as a club literally miles and miles from the nearest even remotely competent gunsmith.

I have a Brno 602 that travels nearly everywhere with me in the hunting fields. there's a reason for that.

jvw375, this is an example of what I have always said about the proper set-up double rifle! If there is one thing in the action that both sides depend on to work, then the rifle is not set up properly for the hunting of dangerous game. This is my objection to single triggers, auto safeties, but I fail to see how a one piece cocking lever has to do with the ejectors working properly. The ejectors are cocked on closing, usually cocked by different means than the toumblers,which are cocked on opening, and if both barrels are not fired then the one not fired only acts as an extractor, if both ejectors are not cocked on closing then they simply act as extractors. I'm not disputing your claim, it is that it is simply something I have never seen, and WR doubles are my passion.
I would like some better explanation of this, because I have some very old Westley Richards ejector doubles, and would like to see for myself what you are refreing to.

I agree with you completely on the value of the BRNO 602! That is one of the most reliable bolt rifles ever built, and they aere not pretty but they are as tough as an anvil!

Mac,

I phoned up the guy who fixed it and, as he explains it to me, what happened was that the broken-off piece of cocking lever lodged itself under the mainspring. As the mainspring was connected to the tripping rod and the tripping rod wouldn't retract as a result of the broken cocking-lever, the Westley-pattern ejectors were in effect turned into self-acting ejectors. Also, the broken cocking-lever naturally couldn't do its job after the breakage, so the locks couldn't be cocked. I hope this makes sense - I'm not the most technically-minded individual!

As I understand it, and I'm under correction with this, Westley changed this pattern before WW I. I know because they responded to our enquiry for a new cocking-lever that they only had spares left for actions made after 1928! Quite funny, my gunsmith had the giggles for a month afterwards, although it took me awhile longer to see the funny side!

I haven't examined a great deal of vintage WR doubles and I haven't seen a one-piece cocking-lever on another one, so I suspect mine was part of an experiment which took a while to go wrong!

1- I am an unabashed wanna-be D/G hunter;
hopefully that will change during this decade.

2- This has been a good time reading and posting
in this thread. I think we're pretty well through
the question that I started it with. Thanks guys!

When I got my first double rifles I used them for ALL of my hunting. I was not out to prove anything, I just wanted to be as good with them as possible before I went to Africa.

So, I used them for ALL of my Texas deer, turkey, and wild pig hunting...

Because I was carrying them in the woods ALL the time I shot beavers, skunks, armidillos, coyotes [I have killed more coyotes with doubles than bolt rifles], bobcats, I have killed 2 squirrels with my 450 No2, both head shots, they tasted great, rabbits...

I took my 450/400 to Alaska and shot 2 caribou.
I have killed black bear with the 450/400, spot and stalk in Montana and the 9,3x74R in Idaho and Canada...

Here is what I Discovered...

I found that the immediate avialibility of the second shot in a double rifle, was much more useful than a bolt rifle with its larger magazine capacity.

I did not setout to prove this, I just "discovered" it to be true.

Now when you compare a bolt rifle to a double you must compare apples to apples.

If you would scope a 9,2x62 ot a 375 H&H then you must ccompare it to a scoped double...

I have taken a coyote at 287 yards, and a kudu at a little over 300 yards with my SCOPED 9,3x74R double rifle. Both kills were witnessed by others and both were filmed...

I shot one of my caribou with the iron sighted 400 in Ak with 2 witnesses at around 175 yards, at a full run. The other was killed at @85 yards as it "trotted by".

I shot a giraffe at 188 yards with my 450 No2, iron sights, again filmed. I hit him with a right and a left, there is NO WAY I could have hit him twice with a bolt rifle, not even a Blaser.

SO, for hunting any big game [deer and up], if I think my shots will be under say, 250 yards I would pick a double.
As I KNOW [because I accidently discovered it], that having the 2 quick shots is a better hunting "tool" than a Bolt Rifle with its 3 or 4 or more shot magazine capacity.

Now for DG, when you shoot most of your elephants at 6 yards or LESS, and you have shot cape buff as close as 12 yards, then a double is what you need...

Well I learned a long time ago, "self-defense" is a broad term used in the English language but no matter what is used, it is the one that gets their the quickest with the mostest!

I prefer the cz 375hyh open sigthed above all other rifles .