One of the things that our RETREEVER told me, about
what was going through his head when he was about
to shoot at his first elephant with his bolt action rifle
was, "What if my firing pin broke the last time I shot
this thing in camp?". He made an instant promise to
himself that he'd not again go on a D.G. hunt without
a double rifle; that two firing pins, two triggers, etc.
just made all the sense in the world when getting close
to beasts that can, and will, kill men who come to kill
them. So I am curious if others who choose to hunt D.G.
with other than double rifles have those questions pop
into their heads as they are about to fire at D.G. If yes,
how the heck do you get over it, especially if you're for-
tunate enough to have gone on these hunts multiple
times? Let me say this, I LOVE BOLT ACTION RIFLES! I
love farquharsons too; and levers! I am crazy about
rifles and love to study them all. I bought an old Brit
D/R because if I ever get the money together to go and
hunt D.G. I am just convinced that RETREEVER'S words
ring true. I am NOT judging anyone. I am just asking
if you get these creepy last second thoughts.

Like you, I love all types of rifles and have been fortunate to use many of them hunting in Africa. That said, I never took a double to Africa and never gave any thought at all to my bolt rifles not working when the time came to use them. When I go again, I'll still not take a double and I still won't have a single thought of my bolt rifles not working perfectly, just as they always have.

The odds of missing the brain on a fast approaching elephant are MUCH greater than those of having unknowingly broken a firing pin on the previous shot...

This would make a much wiser "worry subject", i.e. get to know your rifle till you have full confidence in its capabilities, and you can hit things with it under any circumstances - whether it's a bolt, a double, a 7x57, or a .600

Philip

In all my years of hunting with a variety of firearms under all conditions I have never experienced a broken firing pin or mechanical malfunction apart from the odd jam or two with semi-auto 22 rifles.

I would guess the chances of having a misfire with a cartridge are very much higher than experiencing a broken firing pin, even then misfires should be relatively rare nowadays.

If you have any sort of concern over the reliability of your firearm or ammunition when hunting then you are already on the back foot and liable to perform poorly in the field. A clear head and complete focus on accurately placing the shot is all you should be thinking about.

I understand that many active as well as retired PH's who specialize in DG use bolt action rifles. I don't think I would base my choice of PH on whether or not he's carrying a double rifle, so maybe it's not the prime factor in making a rifle purchase decision.

Like eagle27, I have never experienced, nor do know of anyone, who has ever had the firing pin on his bolt action rifle break during a hunt. Heck, I don't know of any exemples among all the rifle owners I know of a broken firing pin, including all the range shooting which vastly outnumbers rounds fired than on a hunt. It doesn't mean it can't happen of course, but it seems pretty darn low in the heirarchy of what can go wrong when shooting at an animal.

I can not imagine that I would be thinking about 'what if my gun breaks' with an elephant or buffalo in my sights. I would be concentrating on placing a perfect shot.

I use a double hunting elephant but I would be equally comfortable with a bolt action (as long as it's not a Weatherby...I've seen too many fail). Others have probably had different experiences.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
One of the things that our RETREEVER told me, about
what was going through his head when he was about
to shoot at his first elephant with his bolt action rifle
was, "What if my firing pin broke the last time I shot
this thing in camp?". He made an instant promise to
himself that he'd not again go on a D.G. hunt without
a double rifle; that two firing pins, two triggers, etc.
just made all the sense in the world when getting close
to beasts that can, and will, kill men who come to kill
them. So I am curious if others who choose to hunt D.G.
with other than double rifles have those questions pop
into their heads as they are about to fire at D.G. If yes,
how the heck do you get over it, especially if you're for-
tunate enough to have gone on these hunts multiple
times? Let me say this, I LOVE BOLT ACTION RIFLES! I
love farquharsons too; and levers! I am crazy about
rifles and love to study them all. I bought an old Brit
D/R because if I ever get the money together to go and
hunt D.G. I am just convinced that RETREEVERS words
ring true. I am NOT judging anyone. I am just asking
if you get these creepy last second thoughts.

Well BigFiveJack I agree with Mike completely, so you can mark me down as one who will always have a double rifle on a hunt where dangerous game is on the menu! However that is because I own several double rifles that are suited to all dangerous game from the smallest to the largest.

Having said the above, let me ask those who “NEVER” take a double rifle on a dangerous game hunt a question or two. Is this because you don’t own a double rifle of any type, or is it that you don’t see the values in buying one, own os but just choose to hunt with abolt rifle? A answer in the affirmative is a good answer no matter which one it is applied to or even to all.

It is true that your WinRemtherby push feed with everything but a fish-finder attached to it, MAY work flawlessly for your whole life time without a hitch, But it is more likely that it wont, or the nut behind the trigger may fail at a most in opportune time. That also can happen to any rifle or shooter in one way or another. Even though the bolt rifle has a lot more potential pit falls than a double rifle it can still happen in both cases. After all is free choice.

While reading some of the replies to the original post, I get the idea that many who answered own double rifles but don’t choose to hunt with them, or at least many seem to want to leave that impression to justify your choice. Of those who seem to have no use for a double but own them but simply choose to not use them for dangerous game also leaving the impression that they have been on many DG safaris, but still depend on only the fancied up, very expensive and hand fitted version of a Wal-Mart special.

However when it gets down the “nut-cuttin” nothing works better when something happens to your rifle, regardless of type, than a dependable, and close at hand back-up rifle. With the bolt that back-up rifle may be in camp or in the cruiser, or on the shoulder of the tracker who just left the scene! With the double rifle the back-up is still in your hands, because you have two completely independent single shot rifles on the same stock, if it is fitted with two triggers! So what you have is a working single shot. IMO, and that is all this post is “MY OPINION” , that a working single shot is a far better weapon that a bolt rifle that in GONE or JAMMED!

…………………………..What Y’all thank ?????

.................................................. .........................

Double rifle is my choice. I would not hesitate to use a bolt gun push feed or control feed. Push feed may have issues when you are upside down but controlled feed can jam and fail also. I think the if you shot the bolt gun a lot you will correct many of the flaws you find but if you go buy one off the shelf and take it with you having shot only one box of shells you may find problems at the most inopportune moment. I often hunt deer with my bigger guns just to learn of any prolems in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I can not imagine that I would be thinking about 'what if my gun breaks' with an elephant or buffalo in my sights. I would be concentrating on placing a perfect shot.

DITTO!!!

Its not the time to have your mind playing with those thoughts when an shooting an Ele! You need to do whatever it takes to get the confidence back in your shooting - New double rifle, etc. WHATEVER.

If Elephant is your primary quarry, then a DR is probably the best tool....you're at very close range, you need reliabilty and big power, and won't have to think about working a bolt for a 2nd shot in a tense situation. For just about all other hunting, including other dangerous game, a bolt rifle is the best option, IMHO. Picking out the exposed shoulder of a Buffalo in a herd that you've been tracking all day is not easy with an open-sighted DR. Hell, the 3/32nds bead will cover half the Buff at 100 yards. We forget that we're hunters, not PHs....we aren't hunting alone. There will be someone else there with LOTS more experience than us and with a big big bore rifle to keep our hunt safe.
That said, I still love to hunt with a DR. But to me it's a bit like bowhunting; a self-induced handicap to make the hunt more sporting.

Mac,
I do not currently own any doubles. I have owned several over the years and frankly never truly cared for them. I shot them all a good bit and learned what my own capabilities were with them. They all got left at home while the bolt rifles got to make the trips to Africa. I always felt the bolt rifle suited me better and for what/where I typically was hunting I think they did. The double can offer the hunter a few things a bolt rifle doesn't and if I were interested in nothing but elephant hunting I might give them the nod. But for general hunting of lion, buffalo and the like I'll take my bolt gun every time.

As an old goalkeeper, I can comment on superstitions. Worrying about a firing pin breaking (assuming proper maintainance etc.) is simply irrational, a superstition. This can be very useful in stressful, uncertain situations. You worry about silly things that you can control, not major things that you can't and you can be calmer and perform better. Carrying a double lets Retreever concentrate better and be a better elephant hunter.

A lot of what gets fretted over by hunters falls into the superstition category. The answer makes no real measurable difference, but dealing with the trivia calms the butterflies and makes you a more confident and effective hunter.

Dean

I agree with MacD and Biebs both.(I usually do) However, I never think about firing pins, misfires or anything else at the point of the shot. One is just in kill mode and with part of one's mind on follow through and follow up. My solution to your question is bring both. I carry a double 500NE and have a tracker or bearer carry a bolt .416R. If the situation requires a longer shot I just switch rifles. This has worked very well on the last two DG hunts.

quote:

My solution to your question is bring both

That's the ticket..getting to hunt with a DR, but not having to pass on a great trophy because he's beyond your range of comfort or ability.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

My solution to your question is bring both

That's the ticket..getting to hunt with a DR, but not having to pass on a great trophy because he's beyond your range of comfort or ability.

Right ho!

These are great posts guys. I thank you all.
If I get to go, there will be my D/R in my
hands and my scoped 375 H&H bolt action in
the hands of a tracker. As I day dream about
the moment, I don't see myself shooting any-
thing over 25 yards. It's not the physical
trophy so much that I seek. I WANT THE EXPER-
IENCE of being close enough to these beasts
that they are a threat to me and I to them.
The scoped bolt action would be if I had to
shoot through a small opening in brush, or
into a specific shoulder of a specific beast
who is in a group. It would not be for me to
take a longer shot. I guess I am saying that
the way my mind works on DANGEROUS GAME
kills is a 45" buff at 75 yards is a lessor
"trophy" than a 34", snortin', stompin' buff
at 8 yards. Again this is no judgement of any
one who feels differently. And as a guy who is
only a "dreamer" as of now it's just that; me
dreamin"...

[quote]I guess I am saying that
the way my mind works on DANGEROUS GAME
kills is a 45" buff at 75 yards is a lessor
"trophy" than a 34", snortin', stompin' buff
at 8 yards.

Jack, we should hunt together...I'll take care of the 45" Buff for ya!

PS: If your DR is 13 lbs and your bolt gun is 9, let the Tracker carry the double! When we met at the mall a year ago for your dies, I don't remember confusing you with Charles Atlas!

Heeeeyyyyy, my D/R weighs 10.5 pounds not 13!!!

I've never gone, I figure if I could afford to hunt elephant I could afford a double rifle too, and probably would take one. because I think they're cool, not because I see a shortcoming in a bolt gun.

I think that is why it is very important to have a rifle that you have fired a lot and know everything about it. I was going on a pig hunt and the weekend before the rifle started misfiring about 40-50% of the time, I didn't take it. I have since had it repaired but it's gonna get a couple hundred rounds through it before it goes in the field. If you handed me a military issue mauser or springfield or factory mod 70 I'd have no qualms. I think the only thing is when you've customized something or tweaked it, and then not made sure everything works as it should. i.e. you have a rifle opened up for a different cartridge but sighting in and load testing you only every shoot one. get to the field, cycle it and the magazine sprays cartridges out cause something isn't right in the magazine/rails.

Red
PS
I had a 7mm mag that IIRC anything feeding from the left of the mag would pop up through the rails, oops.

I have never seen a boltaction rifle that came from the builder with a spare firing pin. I have owned several doubles 2 of which came with spare firing pins (note plural as both had 2 spares as they are not sometimes interchangeable right for left). Seems to be the standard practice especially for British doubles. If this is the case it would seem that doubles are more prone to firing pin breakage. I'm sure legions here have broken firing pins but in over 60years of shooting and building rifles I have NEVER experienced a broken firing pin in one. I have been up close and personal with elephants and have never felt a worry about firearms failure ever.

Anything mechanical can, and eventualy will, fail - but I have seen more old English double rifles fail than old English (or German) Mauser bolt rifles - and I have seen a lot more bolt guns.

I've been to Africa with DR's and bolts-

Next for me is a Lever trip.

Own and have owned all manners and makes of rifles-

have seen broken firing pins in bolts and DR's,
have also seen other types of failures in bolts, DR's and levers (and of course autos and semis)

A modern rifle of good metallurgy and construction is in general an extremely reliable device -(with proper care and feeding)

Most will never be out there alone--
unless you live in the bush--
(and even, then most should not be alone)

Carry a rifle you shoot well,
is accurate,
functions well,
you have goodly amount of experienced with

AND
you like.


it's always more pleasurable with a smokestick that you love.

For a first and accurate shot, give me a minimum .500 caliber, minimum 6,000+ ft.-lbs. ME bolt rifle any day. And of course good bullets are essential.

I use a .500 A-Square with stout Barnes 570 grain bulleted loads that generate 8,000 ft.-lbs. of ME and like it very much.

For follow up on botched first shots, I would go with the .500 3" Nitro Express, 5,800 ft.-lbs. double rifle, and not just any day, but every day.

If I were the unfortunate PH who had to follow up the botched first shots of clients on a regular basis, the .500 3" Nitro Express double rifle would be my rifle of choice.

Of course, the double rifle in any DG caliber at or above the .450 would suffice for such purposes. I just think bigger is better, all else being equal.

But with the aforementioned bolt rifle fired from good hands and with good effect for the first shot, follow up will not be needed.

I was just curious why they used bolt rifles in the culling of elephants or other "dangerous game" if the bolts rendered so much of a possible problem.

I myself have never experienced a problem with my bolt rifles, except for a broken extractor in a Remington .375H&H years ago. Then I went to the model 70's and FN Browning rifles.......never a problem. There have been several well known PH's who also used the bolt guns,like Finn Aagard with his push feed .458 mag.

I think it is a very good thing for the PH to have the Double Gun but for myself, I will stick with the girl I brought to the dance, the CRF model 70 Winchester.

I've had an utterly best-grade Westley Richards boxlock double break not only a mainspring but a ccoking-lever as well, the latter on the first morning of a very expensive hunt...

Ditto for a buddy's Joseph Lang sidelock and two PH buddy's Chapuis and Krieghoff doubles (mainsprings, whiuch the factories were extremely prompt to replace, by the way).

My own dangerous game hunting has been with a Brno 602 .375. The absolutely LASt thing on my mind was broken anything!

Doubles are very nice but I'm more comfortable with a bolt, and so were many of the old-timers. Never heard of a Brno, pre'-64 or good Mauser breaking anything crucial when it mattered. Quite the contrary!

One old game ranger I knew who recently passed away here in SA fired more than 4 000 rounds from a factory-standard (the backsight excepted) Model 77 .458. 90% of those rounds were fired at buff, ele and lion! The rifle's now owned by a young and up-and-coming SA PH, and it's about as characterful as bolt guns go! I absoilutely adore double rifles, but I'm more comfortable and more trustful of good bolt guns. Please feel free to differ from me.

I have hunted in Africa with both a double and a bolt, however both of my buffaloes have been taken with the a bolt. I have to admit, I never gave any thought to equipment failure with either. I did, however, have a little doubt in my mind about the accuracy of the double when the range exceeded 100 yds. Keep in mind this was plainsgame not DG. Once the range extended that I just had more confidence that I could put a bullet exactly where I wanted it with a bolt. The double was scoped so sights were not an issue. Close up, I had no qualms regarding either. I am returning this summer for another buffalo and plan to take a bolt rifle. If it were elephant I would probably still take the bolt, I just have more confidence in it.

Never experienced any of the described breakages with either my .450 Rigby nor my .500 Greifelt
over 40 years of hunting - did have several misfires and more than several 'hang-fires' with the .450 due to old ammo (the caliber was obsolete and fresh ammo unavailable) which were rather unnerving but learned to live with the situation.
Other than that and having upgraded from the .450, my .500 will never be substituted by a bolt rifle.

I have only 3 words on this

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

Oh, one more---Model 70 CRF

End Of Story! No need for anything else!

Michael

quote:

So I am curious if others who choose to hunt D.G.
with other than double rifles have those questions pop
into their heads as they are about to fire at D.G.

Seriously... I mean seriously? There are myriad reasons we spend hours shooting a rifle before taking it to the field. Accuracy is one, dependability is another. In 16 safaris I have NEVER EVER wondered before pulling the trigger if my bolt action rifle was going to malfunction! Sight alignment, breathe, squeeze.... pray tell if it is different with a double? Do you feel more invincible with a double, do you cock your pith helmet to the right or left before you fire, straighten your jodphurs before you let fly?

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Do you feel more invincible with a double, do you cock your pith helmet to the right or left before you fire, straighten your jodphurs before you let fly?

I have a business plan for the manufacture and sale of pre-cocked pith helmets and automatic, hydraulic jodphur straighteners.

First year projected profits approximate Exxon Mobil's for fiscal 2010.

But still I can't get any venture capital interest or a start up loan.

Maybe I overestimated the number of double rifle aficionados in my pro forma . . . ?

quote:

But still I can't get a start up loan.

I know this banker...

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

But still I can't get a start up loan.

I know this banker...

Hah! You caught me in mid-edit, Russell. It's not just the stingy bankers.

VC has deserted me, too!

I have never owned a double rifle. I have owned many bolts, levers, pumps and automatics. I have had two bolt actions, a Sako L61R and an AV both break at the range and still functioned but needed some work. I had a brand new 1886 Winchester, produced in Japan, and is about 3 years old quit working on a deer hunting trip last year when I pulled-down on a whitetail. It was a broken firing pin! Things can happen but I don't go through life worrying about what can happen. 98% of the things we worry about never happen anyway. I do believe hunting guns should be durable, basic and simple. My PH in Africa last year exclaimed he disliked Blasers for reasons of jamming. He said after many years he prefers Mauser actions, heavy and high velocity cartridges. I don't think anyone really knows for sure the best rifle to take. Being able to shoot and practicing frequently is a better use of ones time.

Doubles are out for me when I eventually get to hunt DG. Too expensive and the money could go on animals. Let's admit it, that is a major consideration.

I've heard of old doubles breaking fatigued parts and getting crap on the face limiting you to 'only' the first two shots (that's if you've been out of the truck for any period of time).

I have had a Mauser '98 full of dust remain functional due to its loose tolerances.

Bolt guns for me.

Edit: I'd love to hunt with a double one day but wouldn't like to carry one too far.

quote:

I have only 3 words on this

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

Oh, one more---Model 70 CRF

End Of Story! No need for anything else!

Michael

Geez, what a Winchester Butt-Boy!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

So I am curious if others who choose to hunt D.G.
with other than double rifles have those questions pop
into their heads as they are about to fire at D.G.

Seriously... I mean seriously? There are myriad reasons we spend hours shooting a rifle before taking it to the field. Accuracy is one, dependability is another. In 16 safaris I have NEVER EVER wondered before pulling the trigger if my bolt action rifle was going to malfunction! Sight alignment, breathe, squeeze.... pray tell if it is different with a double? Do you feel more invincible with a double, do you cock your pith helmet to the right or left before you fire, straighten your jodphurs before you let fly?

To BWANAMRM,

Above I made bold and colored red one of your words.
It really is what my question is about. The first
four words of your answer indicate that the doubt
Mike experienced is incredible to you. That it is a
ridiculous course for one's mind to take. Mike, (re-
treever) relayed to me how his mind suddenly was en-
gaged by this "doubt". And it is undeniable that if
carrying a D/R, and you have a mechanical failure at the
instant that you pull the first trigger, you move your
trigger finger about an inch and employ the second rifle
that you're carrying in the same two hands that you're
carrying your first rifle in. Your point of non-field
shooting for hours testing a rifle in part to determine
dependability is sound. But as Mike said about his well
tested, dependability proven, bolt action weapon, "What
if my firing pin broke the last time I shot this thing
in camp?" And of course the F.P. is a symbol for any
piece of the rifle that could have broken at the last
shot, that would prevent the one round, in the one
chamber, from firing. You made clear in your answer that
such an unsettling thought has not entered your mind as
you're putting pressure on the one trigger, of the one
rifle that you have had in hand during your hunts for
D.G. Thank you for answering. I am afraid this post could
be taken as if I am expressing an air of superiority. I
do not intend that at all.

To be honest, I never had any doubts about the rifle... the nut behind the trigger, well, maybe some at first.

I have exclusively hunted with bolts to this point, but shot all kinds, and just brought a double. The .470 is fun, and eventually it will get over there, but I need a lot of rounds through it before its as comfortable as the bolt guns.

To me the double stopping rifle is africana, and I like tradition, so I will use it- once I am feeling like its a old glove. The mechanical reliability to me is a non issue- the bolt guns are less likely to break than a good double, but the double has duplicates of everything, so to me its a wash.

I much prefer a Double Rifle for DG.

I have shot 97% of my plains game with a double rifle as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I have only 3 words on this

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

WINCHESTER

Oh, one more---Model 70 CRF

End Of Story! No need for anything else!

Michael

Geez, what a Winchester Butt-Boy!!! :-)

Good one Biebs!

Same old same I see, "Revolver vs Auto" for self defense, Double Vs Bolt for DG. Does not matter what you choose, that is up to the individual. As with self defense, it is the same with DG, all mechanical man made devices can and do fail, bolt, revolver, auto, doubles, levers, it's inevitable and so. It is not about the device you hold in your hands that will see you through a tough situation, it's your mindset, and the tool between your ears that will see you through. This is far more true of being in a self defense situation than what you will most likely face hunting dangerous game! You as the hunter will always have the PH there, very unlikely you are on your own, even if you dream it so! Yes, those with a great deal of bush time have been charged by various things, but that is an unlikely scenario for most. (and before you start I can hear it now--"OH BUT I WAS CHARGED.......) And yes I have been charged by some of the wildest critters imagined, even a blesbok one time ---No Joke! LOL--- Many have said do your "Homework". How true that is, most of the time you will find your failures on the range before you leave if you do your homework. Work the rifle when you do your range work, same as you do in the field. Fully loaded, snatching the hell out of the bolt, making sure everything works, feeds, functions and so forth. Same with the doubles, levers, revolvers, autos. Work the rifle hard, cut it no slack. Check every single piece of ammo, make sure it chambers, feeds, functions, before leaving. Doing your homework is very important to your cause, and most likely you will find your failures there.

But old murph is waiting for you anyway in the field. So this is where your mindset, and the tool between your ears comes into play!

HEH HEH--and when all else fails, be prepared to RUN LIKE HELL!!!!!!!



I could not help myself, had to say that! LOL LOL!!! We cannot take ourselves too seriously can we?

Michael