I have watched an argument unfold for the past year on AR. It has finally devolved into one of the most ridiculous threats facing any single species which we hunt that I can see. It is not defined by a weapon, or poaching, or poor science. Instead the biggest threat to this animal is narcissism, hubris, and the egos of just a couple of men. In the past month two threads have started on here. One centered around the photo of a dead lion and the speculation of age. It probably didn’t help that the face in the picture was that of a very controversial professional hunter. The second thread was started by a not so controversial professional hunter.

I have watched two men, Lane Easter and Aaron Neilson, drive an absolute stone wedge between the hunting community and the politicians that all so often screw hunters. After reading these two threads it is quite easy to see that logic, and reason, have long ago escaped the dialogue for Lane and certainly Aaron. We have finally gotten to the point where Aaron proclaims all men who do not worship at the alter of the LCTF can not call themselves conservationists anymore. And Lane and Aaron attack a man who succeeds differently from them. Fairgame has done one thing Aaron and Lane will never do. He took marginal property with no lions and with much effort, politicking, and science based in experience, turned it into a huntable property with a growing population of lions. Paula White didn’t sweep in and rescue those cats. Craig Packer didn’t do it with tooth x-rays. Lane Easter didn’t do it buy holding board meetings. Aaron didn’t do it buy blowing a hole in another lion while he fist pumps for the camera. Aaron and Lane have finally become generals that insult grunts on the front lines of the war. Instead of listening as if they could learn from Andrew, or any differing opinion for that matter, it is easier to proclaim righteousness and think the LCTF can save the lions with nothing more than “name dropping”. That’s right. That’s all that’s left of their argument. A silly game of circular name dropping. Lane claims he is right because Aaron and Bwanamich say he’s right. Aaron claims he’s right because Lane and Bwanamich say he’s right. and the circle goes on and on. And the scientists who claim to be in the know won’t even come on these forums and talk to any of us lowly hunters. Scientists don’t sit around looking for everything that proves their science to be correct. A scientist actively looks for the evidence that will prove his hypothesis WRONG! NONE OF THIS IS A RECIPE FOR CREDIBILITY. In fact it is a damn PR nightmare. There are three parties riding this burning plane into a death spiral. The politicians, the scientists, and the LCTF. The politicians expect omniscience. The scientists are in pursuit of omniscience. And the LCTF are standing around claiming to be omniscient. The politicians light the plane on fire. The scientists study the temperature of the flames. The LCTF shoot the pilots in the head and tell the passengers what idol to pray to. Wildlife management and conservation have nothing to do with omniscience. Successful conservation projects in the 21st century are based on building plans that can survive the UNKNOWNS and balance the politics of animal human conflict. SUSTAINABLE HUNTING IS NOT INTERSPECIES CONFLICT. It is nothing but a predator, prey and consumptive business relationship. Everyone involved in hunting knows that the decline of the African lion has had absolutely NOTHING to do with well managed sport hunting. But the LCTF has successfully joined forces with scientists and politicians to “fix” something that is not broken. They have successfully shoved blanket policies down our throats in the name of conservation, and continent wide blanket policies are just as dangerous to conservation as unregulated hunting. They have forever screwed hunters by stating we will pander to made up issues by anti-hunting groups. The LCTF is an anti-hunting group. Just because Aaron has been the trigger man on more lions than any of us will ever kill does not mean he is not an anti-hunter. PETA kills thousands of animals every year. Anti-hunting politics is not about saving animals. Anti-hunting is about controlling humans. I ask all of you to look at the LCTF and ask yourselves have you ever seen a more zealous group of men, hell bent on attacking and controlling hunters? I haven’t. Like most narcissists they don’t just look at us as if we are beneath them but in fact plot and scheme in ways to insure that we stay beneath them.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I have watched an argument unfold for the past year on AR. It has finally devolved into one of the most ridiculous threats facing any single species which we hunt that I can see.
It is not defined by a weapon, or poaching, or poor science. Instead the biggest threat to this animal is narcissism, hubris, and the egos of just a couple of men. In the past month two threads have started on here. One centered around the photo of a dead lion and the speculation of age.

It probably didn’t help that the face in the picture was that of a very controversial professional hunter. The second thread was started by a not so controversial professional hunter.

I have watched two men, Lane Easter and Aaron Neilson, drive an absolute stone wedge between the hunting community and the politicians that all so often screw hunters. After reading these two threads it is quite easy to see that logic, and reason, have long ago escaped the dialogue for Lane and certainly Aaron.

We have finally gotten to the point where Aaron proclaims all men who do not worship at the alter of the LCTF can not call themselves conservationists anymore. And Lane and Aaron attack a man who succeeds differently from them. Fairgame has done one thing Aaron and Lane will never do. He took marginal property with no lions and with much effort, politicking, and science based in experience, turned it into a huntable property with a growing population of lions.

Paula White didn’t sweep in and rescue those cats. Craig Packer didn’t do it with tooth x-rays. Lane Easter didn’t do it buy holding board meetings. Aaron didn’t do it buy blowing a hole in another lion while he fist pumps for the camera. Aaron and Lane have finally become generals that insult grunts on the front lines of the war. Instead of listening as if they could learn from Andrew, or any differing opinion for that matter, it is easier to proclaim righteousness and think the LCTF can save the lions with nothing more than “name dropping”. That’s right. That’s all that’s left of their argument. A silly game of circular name dropping.

Lane claims he is right because Aaron and Bwanamich say he’s right. Aaron claims he’s right because Lane and Bwanamich say he’s right. and the circle goes on and on. And the scientists who claim to be in the know won’t even come on these forums and talk to any of us lowly hunters. Scientists don’t sit around looking for everything that proves their science to be correct. A scientist actively looks for the evidence that will prove his hypothesis WRONG! NONE OF THIS IS A RECIPE FOR CREDIBILITY. In fact it is a damn PR nightmare.

There are three parties riding this burning plane into a death spiral. The politicians, the scientists, and the LCTF. The politicians expect omniscience. The scientists are in pursuit of omniscience. And the LCTF are standing around claiming to be omniscient. The politicians light the plane on fire. The scientists study the temperature of the flames. The LCTF shoot the pilots in the head and tell the passengers what idol to pray to.

Wildlife management and conservation have nothing to do with omniscience. Successful conservation projects in the 21st century are based on building plans that can survive the UNKNOWNS and balance the politics of animal human conflict. SUSTAINABLE HUNTING IS NOT INTERSPECIES CONFLICT. It is nothing but a predator, prey and consumptive business relationship.

Everyone involved in hunting knows that the decline of the African lion has had absolutely NOTHING to do with well managed sport hunting. But the LCTF has successfully joined forces with scientists and politicians to “fix” something that is not broken. They have successfully shoved blanket policies down our throats in the name of conservation, and continent wide blanket policies are just as dangerous to conservation as unregulated hunting. They have forever screwed hunters by stating we will pander to made up issues by anti-hunting groups.

The LCTF is an anti-hunting group. Just because Aaron has been the trigger man on more lions than any of us will ever kill does not mean he is not an anti-hunter. PETA kills thousands of animals every year. Anti-hunting politics is not about saving animals. Anti-hunting is about controlling humans. I ask all of you to look at the LCTF and ask yourselves have you ever seen a more zealous group of men, hell bent on attacking and controlling hunters? I haven’t. Like most narcissists they don’t just look at us as if we are beneath them but in fact plot and scheme in ways to insure that we stay beneath them.

Uff, that's a harsh post
........
but I admit that I agree on some aspects. Obviously this campain is more about craving for recognition then hunting.
The over-extensively usage of the term "science" starts really to annoy me. Most of the crap is not science it is propaganda.

quote:

... Everyone involved in hunting knows that the decline of the African lion has had absolutely NOTHING to do with well managed sport hunting. But the LCTF has successfully joined forces with scientists and politicians to “fix” something that is not broken.

Amen!

I tried to give this thread or more accurately, the original post a 5 star rating but for some reason it only rated as 3 stars?

So I'll give it 6 of these little chaps instead!

Brad,
You left out one important fact. Andrew can't hunt lion anymore. Lion hunting is closed in Zambia. Why because of uninformed politicians. The ONLY hope Andrew has to ever get to hunt lion again is for the Zambia Ban to be lifted. Unless Andrew's gardener gets busy (have to read the other thread to understand)...he had better hope that one of those scientists successfully gets the politician up to speed.

In regards to lion right now...while I applaud all of the hard boots on the ground done by Andrew (whom I count as a friend)...the mantra should be: "it's the politics stupid!"

If anyone really cares...below is the LCTF response to the petition to uplist the lion. You can verify it by looking on the USF&W web-site. I think it speaks for itself.

Brad...what have you done to help prevent the lion being listed as endangered on under the US ESA??? I am all ears!



Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc.
A Texas based non-profit organization
Dedicated to conserving Africa’s wild-lions and habitat
P.O. Box 665
Gainesville, Texas 76241
Phone: 303-619-2872 or 903-271-2752
Fax: 580-276-1606
E-mail: ledvm@msn.com and globalhunts@aol.com


Public Comments Processing, Attn: FWS-R9-ES-2012-0025
Division of Policy and Directives Management
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, MS 2042-PDM; Arlington, VA 22203

February 8, 2013



Dear Dr. Brisendine and Colleagues,

While estimates vary and exact counts are non existent, it is estimated that approximately 30,000 African lions remain in the wild. Their long-term survival is threatened primarily by loss of habitat, retaliatory killing over depredation on livestock, poaching for bone sales to the Middle and Far East, snaring, and the loss of prey.

There are concerns about the negative impact of trophy hunting on lion populations but the extent of the effects is unknown. The Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF) does agree that with the ongoing decline in global populations of lions and the lion’s range…that reform is warranted in the trophy lion hunting industry, but we are concerned that an up-listing to Endangered status in the US may have unexpected negative consequences for conservation. With 60% of the current sport hunted trophies being imported into the US, up-listing would virtually put an end to the trophy hunting industry in many areas by making it economically unfeasible with resultant impact on the viability of hunting as a form of land use, but would not influence other human causes of lion mortality.


There is an old saying in Africa: “It must pay for it to stay”. While this may be foreign to our way of thinking in the US…it is a fact of life in Africa and one that must be considered.

Lion hunting gives value to the lion and the land they inhabit. This value transforms into habitat preservation, acts as a deterrent against poaching and retaliatory killing, revenue to wildlife authorities for conservation in areas that would otherwise be unsupported (most hunting blocks are unsuitable to photo-tourisms), and continued revenue for under funded wildlife authorities. Rather than eliminating ways for wildlife to generate income, we need to find more ways for rural Africans to benefit from wildlife.

LCTF Recommendations:

• Primarily, we support reform of lion hunting rather than trophy importation restrictions. Science-based management must be implemented by all range countries to ensure that lion hunting is beneficial rather than detrimental to the long term survival of the species. Research has shown that there is a non-impact huntable subset of male lions. Thus, we have defined the ‘Huntable Male Lion’.


The Definition is as follows:
The hunting and scientific communities agree that lion hunting must be biologically sustainable, in which harvests should have no negative long-term impact on lion populations. An essential step in attaining sustainability is the adoption of standards on what is a ‘huntable’ male lion; that is, a lion that can be hunted without any negative effect on the sustainability of the local population from which it is removed.

The most important factor to consider is age. The exact age of a huntable male lion is dependent upon many regional factors such as habitat and associated differences in lion ecology and social structure and thus, may vary slightly regionally, but the general concept holds true for all. The below definition has been endorsed by scientists working in Tanzania, Mozambique and Zambia.

Huntable male lions are defined as those male lions whose off-take has no negative impact on the sustainability of local lion population dynamics. Research has shown that these are typically lions six years of age or more that have completed at least one breeding cycle. To reduce risks of infanticide, males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less) should not be hunted. Based on these considerations, a huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs. The ideal huntable lion is an older individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association with any pride.

For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion. Research models have confirmed that responsible hunting does not alter wild lion population dynamics if restricted to males which meet the criteria of a huntable lion.

Authors:
Colleen Begg, Ph.D
Project Leader, Niassa Carnivore Project
Niassa National Reserve, Mozambique


J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force


George Hartley, BA, LL.B
Professional Hunter
Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris


Luke Hunter, Ph.D
President
PANTHERA

Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

Craig Packer, Ph.D.
Distinguished McKnight University Professor
Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior
University of Minnesota
Principal Investigator, Serengeti Lion Project

Paula A. White, Ph.D
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

Karyl L. Whitman, Ph.D
Wildlife Biologist
Co-Author, A Hunter’s Guide to Aging Lions in Eastern and Southern Africa

The LCTF is working to accomplish global acceptance of this definition and currently in the US…the Dallas Safari Club has adopted it and Safari Club International has it under advisement and consideration for adoption. In Africa, the Tanzania Professional Hunting Association is considering adoption. We will continue to strive for universal acceptance of this definition.



• Secondarily, the LCTF also supports law reform in all range countries. We would like to see universal adoption of laws enforcing rules similar to those of the Niassa National Reserve in Mozambique.


Lion Hunting Rules Proposed by LCTF
1. General Rules

1.1 Elected trophies:
• Only male lions may be hunted.
• Only adult males, which are a minimum of 6 years old, may be hunted as the hunting of young lions can cause severe disruption to pride structure and, if excessive, can cause a population to collapse.
• As a rule no problem lions (e.g. man eaters) should be sold as trophy animals. However, should a client be in a position to hunt a problem lion (and specifically man eaters) the issue of the operator/client retaining and exporting the trophy will be assessed by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY on a case by case basis.

1.2 Trophy monitoring:
• For each lion on quota, a monitoring kit will be provided by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY containing a datasheet and blood sample paper.
• For each lion trophy, the Professional Hunter is expected to take photographs (side view, front view of head and shoulder, nose, teeth and full body), and a blood sample from bullet wound while in the field.
• All questions on the datasheet must also be completed.



2 Trophy Quality Control

2.1 Responsibility: monitoring of trophy quality shall be conducted by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.

2.2 Procedure: The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY shall arrange to collect trophy kits (photographs, blood samples and datasheets) from the operators and measure and age the skulls before trophies are certified for export.

2.3 Export eligibility: Absolutely no lion verified by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY to be less than 4 years of age shall be eligible for export.



3. Assigning of Quotas:

3.1 Points System:
• Quotas will be assigned independently for each concession dependant on the age of lion trophies taken in the previous hunting season according to the Points System.
• The points system is self-regulating; it rewards ecologically sound hunting by allowing an increase in the quota to a maximum of five. Hunting of young lions under the age of six years is penalized. Operators receive no decrease in quota for not shooting a lion.
• Using this system, the off-take in each block will increase or decrease in accordance with real densities in each concession, accounting for hunting effort, anti-poaching measures (i.e. decreased illegal off-take) and natural population fluctuations (disease, drought etc.).
• The maximum of five lion for each concession is in place initially to ensure that the quota remains within 2 - 4% of the predicted adult male population. It is considered unlikely in the foreseeable future that more than five male lions of appropriate age will be available in each block. However this can be reassessed in the future.
• New concessions will be awarded an initial quota of two lions.
• If the quota is reduced to zero (i.e. only young lions are shot in the previous year), no quota is provided for the next year, but the quota will start at one lion the following year.
• Details of all trophies (datasheets, photographs of mane, teeth and nose) will be kept on file with APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY. It is mandatory that a premolar be made available from each trophy so that field aging techniques can be fine-tuned over time.

3.2 Procedure:

The Points System is a three-step process:

Step 1:
At the end of each hunting season each lion trophy taken is aged by APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY representatives based on teeth, nose color, mane development and general body condition.

Step 2:see Niassa Reserve Rules above to understand this chart...it did not transfer well...they are the same
Points are assigned to each trophy according to the following system.
Number of Points for Each Trophy
Quota >6yrs No Trophy 4-6 yrs <4 yrs incomplete info
quota of
3 or more 4 3 2 -3 0
quota of
2 4 3 2 0 0
quota of
1 6 3 0 0 0

For each concession, points are tallied for that year, divided by 3, rounded up to next whole number up to a maximum of 5 lions and that is the quota issued for the next hunting season.

Step 3:
The APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY will endeavor to inform operators of the new quota to allow time for marketing at safari shows in January.

3.3 Unethical Behavior:

In cases of Safari Operators or Professional Hunters behaving unethically (according to the applicable law in the country), APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY may apply more severe actions, which might include trophy confiscation or PH License confiscation or cancellation of the lease agreement with the operator.

It is considered unethical behavior to hunt a lion less than 6 years of age. Specific additional penalties for hunting a lion less than 6 years of age are outlined below and will be levied by the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY:

• Lions less than 4.0 years of age
o Export will not be allowed and the trophy becomes the property of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY.
o The PH responsible for the harvest of a lion in this category will automatically have his/her license suspended for the following hunting season. After 2 suspensions for this violation, a third offense results in a permanent life long ban from obtaining a PH license.

• Lions 4.0 – 4.11 years of age
Export of this category will be allowed with a double trophy fee paid by the client. The second trophy fee will be levied after age certification and will be paid prior to export.

• Lions 4.0 – 5.11 years of age
If a PH harvests 3 or more of these in any consecutive 5 year period or less, an automatic suspension of his/her Dangerous Game license for the period of one year will occur.



4. Trophy Export
• The standard operating procedures apply.
• Only trophies certified as 4 years old or older, after credible post mortem inspection by qualified inspectors of the APPROPRIATE WILDLIFE AUTHORITY, can be exported.
o Lions certified to be in the age range of 4.0 – 4.11 may only be eligible for export after a second additional trophy fee is paid in full.


Tanzania has already adopted a “six-year-old-rule” and is presently ‘considering’ amending its laws to mimic those written above. Of course Mozambique has ‘similar rules’ in the Niassa Reserve and the LCTF is applying pressure for these rules to be put in place in Zambia, Zimbabwe, Namibia, and other Range Countries.



In Conclusion:
The LCTF believes strongly in ethical sustainable hunting as a conservation tool. We also believe strongly that if the governments of the range countries, the hunting industry, and the client hunters themselves embrace rules and definitions as laid out in this letter along adequate protection from poaching that the lion populations will begin to increase to carrying capacity.

We feel strongly that with the positive changes that ‘ARE’ occurring that any unilateral action taken by the USF&WS such as an up-list to endangered status would have catastrophic effects.

Therefore, with the negative consequences of an up-list laid out and the beginning of acceptance of these current recommendations taking place, the LCTF recommends against the African Lion being listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act.



Sincerely,



J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force



Aaron Neilson
Professional Hunter
President, Global Hunting Resources
Co-founding member, Lion Conservation Task Force

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I have watched an argument unfold for the past year on AR. It has finally devolved into one of the most ridiculous threats facing any single species which we hunt that I can see. It is not defined by a weapon, or poaching, or poor science. Instead the biggest threat to this animal is narcissism, hubris, and the egos of just a couple of men. In the past month two threads have started on here. One centered around the photo of a dead lion and the speculation of age. It probably didn’t help that the face in the picture was that of a very controversial professional hunter. The second thread was started by a not so controversial professional hunter.

I have watched two men, Lane Easter and Aaron Neilson, drive an absolute stone wedge between the hunting community and the politicians that all so often screw hunters. After reading these two threads it is quite easy to see that logic, and reason, have long ago escaped the dialogue for Lane and certainly Aaron. We have finally gotten to the point where Aaron proclaims all men who do not worship at the alter of the LCTF can not call themselves conservationists anymore. And Lane and Aaron attack a man who succeeds differently from them. Fairgame has done one thing Aaron and Lane will never do. He took marginal property with no lions and with much effort, politicking, and science based in experience, turned it into a huntable property with a growing population of lions. Paula White didn’t sweep in and rescue those cats. Craig Packer didn’t do it with tooth x-rays. Lane Easter didn’t do it buy holding board meetings. Aaron didn’t do it buy blowing a hole in another lion while he fist pumps for the camera. Aaron and Lane have finally become generals that insult grunts on the front lines of the war. Instead of listening as if they could learn from Andrew, or any differing opinion for that matter, it is easier to proclaim righteousness and think the LCTF can save the lions with nothing more than “name dropping”. That’s right. That’s all that’s left of their argument. A silly game of circular name dropping. Lane claims he is right because Aaron and Bwanamich say he’s right. Aaron claims he’s right because Lane and Bwanamich say he’s right. and the circle goes on and on. And the scientists who claim to be in the know won’t even come on these forums and talk to any of us lowly hunters. Scientists don’t sit around looking for everything that proves their science to be correct. A scientist actively looks for the evidence that will prove his hypothesis WRONG! NONE OF THIS IS A RECIPE FOR CREDIBILITY. In fact it is a damn PR nightmare. There are three parties riding this burning plane into a death spiral. The politicians, the scientists, and the LCTF. The politicians expect omniscience. The scientists are in pursuit of omniscience. And the LCTF are standing around claiming to be omniscient. The politicians light the plane on fire. The scientists study the temperature of the flames. The LCTF shoot the pilots in the head and tell the passengers what idol to pray to. Wildlife management and conservation have nothing to do with omniscience. Successful conservation projects in the 21st century are based on building plans that can survive the UNKNOWNS and balance the politics of animal human conflict. SUSTAINABLE HUNTING IS NOT INTERSPECIES CONFLICT. It is nothing but a predator, prey and consumptive business relationship. Everyone involved in hunting knows that the decline of the African lion has had absolutely NOTHING to do with well managed sport hunting. But the LCTF has successfully joined forces with scientists and politicians to “fix” something that is not broken. They have successfully shoved blanket policies down our throats in the name of conservation, and continent wide blanket policies are just as dangerous to conservation as unregulated hunting. They have forever screwed hunters by stating we will pander to made up issues by anti-hunting groups. The LCTF is an anti-hunting group. Just because Aaron has been the trigger man on more lions than any of us will ever kill does not mean he is not an anti-hunter. PETA kills thousands of animals every year. Anti-hunting politics is not about saving animals. Anti-hunting is about controlling humans. I ask all of you to look at the LCTF and ask yourselves have you ever seen a more zealous group of men, hell bent on attacking and controlling hunters? I haven’t. Like most narcissists they don’t just look at us as if we are beneath them but in fact plot and scheme in ways to insure that we stay beneath them.

Damn 505....

I missed the other solution.I guess just go back and do it the way it was. Politics is here to stay. I would like to hear another option that will allow us to keep hunting lions.So far I have not heard anything except to leave it alone and then lion hunting will be gone in 6 months.They would love that!

Leadership is always viewed as being narcissism. I wish we had a dozen LCTFs in play to counter the always pandering politicians....thank you Lane and Aaron.

If this were all going on in a vacuum, 505 might have a point. However, that isn't the case. The LCTF is taking action and doing what it can to keep the lion from being uplisted to Endangered by the USFWS! For some reason, many here fail to recognize this threat and it's very real and present danger of being enacted any day now.

Take a look around guys. How many threads have been started here on AR noting that the USFWS has seized leopard trophies or elephant tusks for minor clerical errors? Quite a few by my last count. In case it's getting by you, the USFWS is looking for any way it can to stop trophy hunting. The reason this initiative to uplist the lion is before the USFWS right now, at this time, is because the anti's bided their time, gathered their "scientific data", and brought it to the fore once the agency's direction took a turn toward their side of the argument. The anti's are "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak.

What other group is currently taking action to support hunter's views on lion hunting at the moment? Anyone? And does anyone really believe this is about lions and not simply a stepping stone to the other iconic species such as elephant and leopard? IMO, taking into account the slack jawed, mealy mouthed animal welfare attitudes that are prevalent in today's society, safari hunting is hanging by a thread! A major victory for the anti's such as uplisting the lion will start the ball rolling toward the end of it for good!

Compare the lion issue to the polar bear. That uplisting happened folks! No more polar bear imports for US hunters!! It's done. Over! Finished!! However, the polar bear was the only iconic species in that environment that captivated the non-hunting public's imagination. Not so for Africa! After the lion, it will certainly move to the elephant, then leopard. At that point, what's left? Buffalo and plains game? I dare say that once the lion is uplisted, then the ele and leopard, a total ban on african trophy imports is not far behind.

No one really welcomes the restrictions being advocated here, but they are a damn site better than loosing lion hunting altogether! And losing lion hunting forever is about to happen if someone doesn't stand in the gap and make a statement for sustainable conservation through hunting of the species. In that regard, I applaud the LCTF for their efforts!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
If this were all going on in a vacuum, 505 might have a point. However, that isn't the case. The LCTF is taking action and doing what it can to keep the lion from being uplisted to Endangered by the USFWS! For some reason, many here fail to recognize this threat and it's very real and present danger of being enacted any day now.

Take a look around guys. How many threads have been started here on AR noting that the USFWS has seized leopard trophies or elephant tusks for minor clerical errors? Quite a few by my last count. In case it's getting by you, the USFWS is looking for any way it can to stop trophy hunting. The reason this initiative to uplist the lion is before the USFWS right now, at this time, is because the anti's bided their time, gathered their "scientific data", and brought it to the fore once the agency's direction took a turn toward their side of the argument. The anti's are "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak.

What other group is currently taking action to support hunter's views on lion hunting at the moment? Anyone? And does anyone really believe this is about lions and not simply a stepping stone to the other iconic species such as elephant and leopard? IMO, taking into account the slack jawed, mealy mouthed animal welfare attitudes that are prevalent in today's society, safari hunting is hanging by a thread! A major victory for the anti's such as uplisting the lion will start the ball rolling toward the end of it for good!

Compare the lion issue to the polar bear. That uplisting happened folks! No more polar bear imports for US hunters!! It's done. Over! Finished!! However, the polar bear was the only iconic species in that environment that captivated the non-hunting public's imagination. Not so for Africa! After the lion, it will certainly move to the elephant, then leopard. At that point, what's left? Buffalo and plains game? I dare say that once the lion is uplisted, then the ele and leopard, a total ban on african trophy imports is not far behind.

No one really welcomes the restrictions being advocated here, but they are a damn site better than loosing lion hunting altogether! And losing lion hunting forever is about to happen if someone doesn't stand in the gap and make a statement for sustainable conservation through hunting of the species. In that regard, I applaud the LCTF for their efforts!

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

Jeff

quote:

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

I agree.
Its the way in which members of the LCTF conduct themselves when dealing with their fellow hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
If this were all going on in a vacuum, 505 might have a point. However, that isn't the case. The LCTF is taking action and doing what it can to keep the lion from being uplisted to Endangered by the USFWS! For some reason, many here fail to recognize this threat and it's very real and present danger of being enacted any day now.

Take a look around guys. How many threads have been started here on AR noting that the USFWS has seized leopard trophies or elephant tusks for minor clerical errors? Quite a few by my last count. In case it's getting by you, the USFWS is looking for any way it can to stop trophy hunting. The reason this initiative to uplist the lion is before the USFWS right now, at this time, is because the anti's bided their time, gathered their "scientific data", and brought it to the fore once the agency's direction took a turn toward their side of the argument. The anti's are "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak.

What other group is currently taking action to support hunter's views on lion hunting at the moment? Anyone? And does anyone really believe this is about lions and not simply a stepping stone to the other iconic species such as elephant and leopard? IMO, taking into account the slack jawed, mealy mouthed animal welfare attitudes that are prevalent in today's society, safari hunting is hanging by a thread! A major victory for the anti's such as uplisting the lion will start the ball rolling toward the end of it for good!

Compare the lion issue to the polar bear. That uplisting happened folks! No more polar bear imports for US hunters!! It's done. Over! Finished!! However, the polar bear was the only iconic species in that environment that captivated the non-hunting public's imagination. Not so for Africa! After the lion, it will certainly move to the elephant, then leopard. At that point, what's left? Buffalo and plains game? I dare say that once the lion is uplisted, then the ele and leopard, a total ban on african trophy imports is not far behind.

No one really welcomes the restrictions being advocated here, but they are a damn site better than loosing lion hunting altogether! And losing lion hunting forever is about to happen if someone doesn't stand in the gap and make a statement for sustainable conservation through hunting of the species. In that regard, I applaud the LCTF for their efforts!

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

Jeff

Actually it is.

I have never been a Mark Sullivan basher...check all the threads. I have met Mark Sullivan and he was a very pleasant guy to me. His lion in the thread questioned was leagal and mature enough to shoot and a fine trophy for all.

I just want everyone to "learn" that Mark calling the lion 12 was BS...simple as that and I would say to Marks face. It is just a fact. I went further to try and show how I know that...IE: further education for all.

Yep...it is the education effort that gets criticized the most.

In regards to Fairgame (Andrew Baldry)...he started the Shoot Him??? thread. I didn't say a word until he said tooth wear was "codswaddle". Then I simply pointed out that that was incorrect and there was reems of data to suggest otherwise. And that he should not kick sand in the face of those who are trying to salvage his livlihood for him.

If he doesn't want any help...I am sure his gardener will prevail.

In regards to .505 Gibbs...well...from what I have heard him say over the years...I feel encouraged to see that we look at this issue 180 degrees opposite. It tells me that I am probably on the right path.

ledvm, I applaud your efforts to keep lion hunting open and agree that ONLY mature males should be taken, BUT I have a question. Not ever having hunted lion, how easy it it to judge a lion's age in the field??? Your proposed penalties for shooting lion less than 6 years old are pretty stiff and would hate to see a PH's license taken away for him misjudging a lion's age by a year or 2.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
If this were all going on in a vacuum, 505 might have a point. However, that isn't the case. The LCTF is taking action and doing what it can to keep the lion from being uplisted to Endangered by the USFWS! For some reason, many here fail to recognize this threat and it's very real and present danger of being enacted any day now.

Take a look around guys. How many threads have been started here on AR noting that the USFWS has seized leopard trophies or elephant tusks for minor clerical errors? Quite a few by my last count. In case it's getting by you, the USFWS is looking for any way it can to stop trophy hunting. The reason this initiative to uplist the lion is before the USFWS right now, at this time, is because the anti's bided their time, gathered their "scientific data", and brought it to the fore once the agency's direction took a turn toward their side of the argument. The anti's are "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak.

What other group is currently taking action to support hunter's views on lion hunting at the moment? Anyone? And does anyone really believe this is about lions and not simply a stepping stone to the other iconic species such as elephant and leopard? IMO, taking into account the slack jawed, mealy mouthed animal welfare attitudes that are prevalent in today's society, safari hunting is hanging by a thread! A major victory for the anti's such as uplisting the lion will start the ball rolling toward the end of it for good!

Compare the lion issue to the polar bear. That uplisting happened folks! No more polar bear imports for US hunters!! It's done. Over! Finished!! However, the polar bear was the only iconic species in that environment that captivated the non-hunting public's imagination. Not so for Africa! After the lion, it will certainly move to the elephant, then leopard. At that point, what's left? Buffalo and plains game? I dare say that once the lion is uplisted, then the ele and leopard, a total ban on african trophy imports is not far behind.

No one really welcomes the restrictions being advocated here, but they are a damn site better than loosing lion hunting altogether! And losing lion hunting forever is about to happen if someone doesn't stand in the gap and make a statement for sustainable conservation through hunting of the species. In that regard, I applaud the LCTF for their efforts!

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

Jeff

Actually it is.

I have never been a Mark Sullivan basher...check all the threads. I have met Mark Sullivan and he was a very pleasant guy to me. His lion in the thread questioned was leagal and mature enough to shoot and a fine trophy for all.

I just want everyone to "learn" that Mark calling the lion 12 was BS...simple as that and I would say to Marks face. It is just a fact. I went further to try and show how I know that...IE: further education for all.

Yep...it is the education effort that gets criticized the most.

Lane,

Let us try agreeing on the 6 year old rule first. Older is irrelevant and involves even more guesswork.

There is nothing ANYBODY can do if a high ranking PF Minister dictates policy. Word is that hunting and the ban on Lion will be lifted by the very politicians that Govern this country. This will be a political decision and NOBODY - White, Packer, LCTF etc will be able to influence this. Same applies to all African Countries.

505,

Thanks for the compliments.

Not sure what Lane will answer but I have hunted lion more than a few times and for me it is hard but I keep trying to get better. I am not sure i can be 100% but if you try hard you probably will not shoot one that is way to young.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

I agree.
Its the way in which members of the LCTF conduct themselves when dealing with their fellow hunters.

I grew up in a world of men of few words. They were doers. By 13 years of age...I did a man's work every day I was not in school and a half-days work the ones I was. As a youngster...they usually spoke plainly to you once and the next time it was the toe of the boot or the belt that you got if you weren't doing to suit.

But...I learned (rightly or wrongly) that when I had something to say...to just spit it out...honestly and openly.

Today almost everyone rquires a little butt powdering first. Sorry...just not me. Probably...as folks like Mike Jines usually point out...if I was a better butt-powderer...threads like this would not be started.

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
Not sure what Lane will answer but I have hunted lion more than a few times and for me it is hard but I keep trying to get better. I am not sure i can be 100% but if you try hard you probably will not shoot one that is way to young.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I have watched an argument unfold for the past year on AR. It has finally devolved into one of the most ridiculous threats facing any single species which we hunt that I can see. It is not defined by a weapon, or poaching, or poor science. Instead the biggest threat to this animal is narcissism, hubris, and the egos of just a couple of men. In the past month two threads have started on here. One centered around the photo of a dead lion and the speculation of age. It probably didn’t help that the face in the picture was that of a very controversial professional hunter. The second thread was started by a not so controversial professional hunter.

I have watched two men, Lane Easter and Aaron Neilson, drive an absolute stone wedge between the hunting community and the politicians that all so often screw hunters. After reading these two threads it is quite easy to see that logic, and reason, have long ago escaped the dialogue for Lane and certainly Aaron. We have finally gotten to the point where Aaron proclaims all men who do not worship at the alter of the LCTF can not call themselves conservationists anymore. And Lane and Aaron attack a man who succeeds differently from them. Fairgame has done one thing Aaron and Lane will never do. He took marginal property with no lions and with much effort, politicking, and science based in experience, turned it into a huntable property with a growing population of lions. Paula White didn’t sweep in and rescue those cats. Craig Packer didn’t do it with tooth x-rays. Lane Easter didn’t do it buy holding board meetings. Aaron didn’t do it buy blowing a hole in another lion while he fist pumps for the camera. Aaron and Lane have finally become generals that insult grunts on the front lines of the war. Instead of listening as if they could learn from Andrew, or any differing opinion for that matter, it is easier to proclaim righteousness and think the LCTF can save the lions with nothing more than “name dropping”. That’s right. That’s all that’s left of their argument. A silly game of circular name dropping. Lane claims he is right because Aaron and Bwanamich say he’s right. Aaron claims he’s right because Lane and Bwanamich say he’s right. and the circle goes on and on. And the scientists who claim to be in the know won’t even come on these forums and talk to any of us lowly hunters. Scientists don’t sit around looking for everything that proves their science to be correct. A scientist actively looks for the evidence that will prove his hypothesis WRONG! NONE OF THIS IS A RECIPE FOR CREDIBILITY. In fact it is a damn PR nightmare. There are three parties riding this burning plane into a death spiral. The politicians, the scientists, and the LCTF. The politicians expect omniscience. The scientists are in pursuit of omniscience. And the LCTF are standing around claiming to be omniscient. The politicians light the plane on fire. The scientists study the temperature of the flames. The LCTF shoot the pilots in the head and tell the passengers what idol to pray to. Wildlife management and conservation have nothing to do with omniscience. Successful conservation projects in the 21st century are based on building plans that can survive the UNKNOWNS and balance the politics of animal human conflict. SUSTAINABLE HUNTING IS NOT INTERSPECIES CONFLICT. It is nothing but a predator, prey and consumptive business relationship. Everyone involved in hunting knows that the decline of the African lion has had absolutely NOTHING to do with well managed sport hunting. But the LCTF has successfully joined forces with scientists and politicians to “fix” something that is not broken. They have successfully shoved blanket policies down our throats in the name of conservation, and continent wide blanket policies are just as dangerous to conservation as unregulated hunting. They have forever screwed hunters by stating we will pander to made up issues by anti-hunting groups. The LCTF is an anti-hunting group. Just because Aaron has been the trigger man on more lions than any of us will ever kill does not mean he is not an anti-hunter. PETA kills thousands of animals every year. Anti-hunting politics is not about saving animals. Anti-hunting is about controlling humans. I ask all of you to look at the LCTF and ask yourselves have you ever seen a more zealous group of men, hell bent on attacking and controlling hunters? I haven’t. Like most narcissists they don’t just look at us as if we are beneath them but in fact plot and scheme in ways to insure that we stay beneath them.

My biggest problem with it and them is that they do not keep to the area Seed gave them for conservation. They keep on threads in the African Hunting area. I have finally put them both on 'ignore' but that does not delete what people quote on the thread they do.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
If this were all going on in a vacuum, 505 might have a point. However, that isn't the case. The LCTF is taking action and doing what it can to keep the lion from being uplisted to Endangered by the USFWS! For some reason, many here fail to recognize this threat and it's very real and present danger of being enacted any day now.

Take a look around guys. How many threads have been started here on AR noting that the USFWS has seized leopard trophies or elephant tusks for minor clerical errors? Quite a few by my last count. In case it's getting by you, the USFWS is looking for any way it can to stop trophy hunting. The reason this initiative to uplist the lion is before the USFWS right now, at this time, is because the anti's bided their time, gathered their "scientific data", and brought it to the fore once the agency's direction took a turn toward their side of the argument. The anti's are "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak.

What other group is currently taking action to support hunter's views on lion hunting at the moment? Anyone? And does anyone really believe this is about lions and not simply a stepping stone to the other iconic species such as elephant and leopard? IMO, taking into account the slack jawed, mealy mouthed animal welfare attitudes that are prevalent in today's society, safari hunting is hanging by a thread! A major victory for the anti's such as uplisting the lion will start the ball rolling toward the end of it for good!

Compare the lion issue to the polar bear. That uplisting happened folks! No more polar bear imports for US hunters!! It's done. Over! Finished!! However, the polar bear was the only iconic species in that environment that captivated the non-hunting public's imagination. Not so for Africa! After the lion, it will certainly move to the elephant, then leopard. At that point, what's left? Buffalo and plains game? I dare say that once the lion is uplisted, then the ele and leopard, a total ban on african trophy imports is not far behind.

No one really welcomes the restrictions being advocated here, but they are a damn site better than loosing lion hunting altogether! And losing lion hunting forever is about to happen if someone doesn't stand in the gap and make a statement for sustainable conservation through hunting of the species. In that regard, I applaud the LCTF for their efforts!

Todd,

I really don't think the education and effort of the LCTF is what is being criticized.

Jeff

Actually it is.

I have never been a Mark Sullivan basher...check all the threads. I have met Mark Sullivan and he was a very pleasant guy to me. His lion in the thread questioned was leagal and mature enough to shoot and a fine trophy for all.

I just want everyone to "learn" that Mark calling the lion 12 was BS...simple as that and I would say to Marks face. It is just a fact. I went further to try and show how I know that...IE: further education for all.

Yep...it is the education effort that gets criticized the most.

Lane,

Let us try agreeing on the 6 year old rule first. Older is irrelevant and involves even more guesswork.

There is nothing ANYBODY can do if a high ranking PF Minister dictates policy. Word is that hunting and the ban on Lion will be lifted by the very politicians that Govern this country. This will be a political decision and NOBODY - White, Packer, LCTF etc will be able to influence this. Same applies to all African Countries.

Thought your gardener was working on it???

For your sake and the sake of the lion...I hope the ban is lifted.

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
ledvm, I applaud your efforts to keep lion hunting open and agree that ONLY mature males should be taken, BUT I have a question. Not ever having hunted lion, how easy it it to judge a lion's age in the field??? Your proposed penalties for shooting lion less than 6 years old are pretty stiff and would hate to see a PH's license taken away for him misjudging a lion's age by a year or 2.

Actually...many of the TZ PH's that consulted on the writing of those rules recommeneded the penalties written in.

It would be easy for the experienced outfitter and PH to stay out of serious issues with those rules.

quote:

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.

Lane I will remind you of that statement in a couple of months.

Note Zambia has experienced a large number of Lion conflicts this year and a good number have been shot by the Wildlife Department. These have been recorded by the media and Joe Public here indeed view Lions as a problem. There are too many of them.

Zambia is a hunting nation and our citizens, Ministers, Chiefs and other high ranking officials are now calling for the ban on resident hunting to be lifted.

However if you or Paula White have had audience or influence with Mrs Silvia Masebo (Minister of Tourism) then I would like to know about it.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.

Lane I will remind you of that statement in a couple of months.

Note Zambia has experienced a large number of Lion conflicts this year and a good number have been shot by the Wildlife Department. These have been recorded by the media and Joe Public here indeed view Lions as a problem. There are too many of them.

Zambia is a hunting nation and our citizens, Ministers, Chiefs and other high ranking officials are now calling for the ban on resident hunting to be lifted.

However if you or Paula Whire have had audience with Mrs Silvia Masebo (Minister of Tourism) then I would like to know about it.

I am sure you have Paula's e-mail addy...you'll have to ask her yourself...as I quit giving out information from her.

I have exchanged e-mails with her (the Minister).

In regards to reminding me...remind me of what??? I hope for your sake and the lion's...it is reversed...and soon.

But...it is unlikely to be from everyone doing nothing...besides...that is an insult to your gardener.

quote:

Lions 4.0 – 4.11 years of age
Export of this category will be allowed with a double trophy fee paid by the client. The second trophy fee will be levied after age certification and will be paid prior to export.

• Lions 4.0 – 5.11 years of age
If a PH harvests 3 or more of these in any consecutive 5 year period or less, an automatic suspension of his/her Dangerous Game license for the period of one year will occur.

Lane,

For my education, how do you tell if a lion is 4.11 or 5.00 years of age or 5.11 or 6.00 years of age. Is tooth aging that accurate? If what you are talking about is an average of several lions then mathimatically if age is determined to one decimal point you can not go to two decimal points when you average.

465H&H

Brad - I/we are "Anti-Hunters" now, really?

Just imagine all that you could have accomplished for the lion, the hunting community, and the world's wildlife, if you put as much effort into changing/forming conservation/hunting policy to whatever it should be as you see it, as you do into dis-crediting me, Lane, and others associated with the LCTF? You probably could have accomplished quite a bit of good in favor of wildlife/hunting? What a shame!!!!

I have great respect for Mark Sullivan, consider him a friend, talk to him semi-frequently, own all of his dvd's/books, and think he's doing as good of a job as anyone in the biz in taking big/mature lions. Where/how/why you think I am bashing him is beyond me? All I said is the lion in the pic is obviously not 12 yrs old, that simple! I even said, frankly who cares how old it is, its obviously old enough, and is obviously a great trophy!!!

Below is the list directly from the DSC website of those outfitters/PH's, etc, that support our "Anti-Hunting, Hunter Controlling, Zealous, non-conservation minded" HUNTABLE LION DEFINITION/POLICY. Those who are obviously in favor of a conservation minded approach to hunting the Lion! Apparently lots of professionals with much more knowledge/experience than you, do agree, their is need for change??

Ya Brad, I think I'll go with the support of these many well respected PH's, outfitters, conservancies, and wildlife conservationists - and you can stick with yours. Hey look down there - ROYAL KAFUE, Ltd.

Well, those of you that agree with Brad, please be sure not to book any future hunts with any of these folks listed below. Obviously their intentions are sinister in nature, with an emphasis on controlling the hunter, and practicing anti-hunting policy. In no way are the efforts of the LCTF, DSC, many in the scientific community, or these many supporters of the change in lion hunting policy - geared towards a conservation minded effort to help/save/protect and ensure future lion hunting possibilities.

Brad, have a great day!!!


CURRENT SUPPORTERS, as of 5-8-13
Adam Clements-Safari Trackers, Inc.
Adries Kotze
Askew and Maartens Safaris
Brooklands Hunting Safaris
Bubye Valley Conservancy
Buffalo Trails Safaris
Bvekenya Safaris
Charlton McCallum Safaris
Chifuti Safaris - Safari Classics
Coenraad Vermaak Safaris
Craig Boddington
Danny McCallum Safaris Ltd.
De Klerk Safaris
Desfountain & Jones, Ltd.
Dindingwe Safaris
Dr. Bob Speegle
DWD Worldwide Adventures
Eagle Imaging Partners of Oklahoma
Ethiopia Rift Valley Safaris
Forever African Safaris
Game Trackers Africa/Ondjamba Safaris
Global Adventure Outfitters
Global Hunting Resources
Grant Adventures
Gras Hunting Ranch
HartzView Hunting Safaris
HHK Safaris
Hunters & Guides Africa
Hunters Namibia Safaris - Joof Lamprecht
Huntershill Safaris
Hunting Consortium
Hunting in Africa Safaris and Tours
Impala African Safaris
Ivan Carter
Jan Martin McGuire - McGuire & Hines
Jim Shockey
Jofie Lamprecht Safaris
Johan Calitz Safaris
John Sharp Safaris
John X Safaris
Keith Wall - PH
Kevin Thomas Safaris
Kikuyu Lodge Game Reserve
Kuche Safaris
Kwalata Wilderness
Larry Weishuhn
Legendary Adventures, Inc.
Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts NZ & Australia
Liam Urry Safaris
Limnetzi Safaris
Mabula Pro Safaris
Madubula Safaris
Manny Fajin
Matlabas Game Hunters
Michel Mantheakis Safaris Ltd.
Mokore Safaris
Mwatisi Safaris Ltd.
Nesbitt Hunting
Numzaan Safaris
Okarumuti Game Lodge
Omalanga Safaris Namibia
Omujeve Hunting Safaris
Original Kansas Trophy Whitetails, The
Outdoor Visions – Bob Harper
Paul Stones Safaris Africa
Rann Safaris/777 Ranch
Riata Hunting & Outdoors, LLC
Roger Whittall Safaris
Rosslyn Safaris
Rovuma Hunting Safaris
Royal Kafue, Ltd.
Rungwa Game Safaris
Sadaka Safaris
Safari World of Robin Hurt
Safaris de Mozambique LDA
Shane Mahoney, Vice Global Chair, IUCN
Spiral Horn Safaris
Steve Hornady
Tam Safaris
Tandala Hunting Safaris
Tanzania Adventures, Inc.
Tanzania Big Game Safaris
Tanzania Game Trackers Safaris
Tanzania Safaris and Hunting
Thaba Mmoyo Safaris
Trophy Hunters Africa
Tshabezi Safaris
Upmarket Safaris
Van Noordwyk Safaris
Wintershoek Johnny Viviere Safaris
YO Africa
Zambeze Delta Safaris/Game Hunters Africa
Zambezi Hunters
ZimAfrica Classic Safaris - Zimbabwe
Zindele Safaris

Does "honest and up front" also mean "sarcastic & point scoring"?

I do not recall a single instance where Andrew said "let us do nothing".

The below quote is a typical example of political gamesmanship.

_______________________________________

Lane said ....

quote:

Thought your gardener was working on it???

For your sake and the sake of the lion...I hope the ban is lifted.

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.


J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Lions 4.0 – 4.11 years of age
Export of this category will be allowed with a double trophy fee paid by the client. The second trophy fee will be levied after age certification and will be paid prior to export.

• Lions 4.0 – 5.11 years of age
If a PH harvests 3 or more of these in any consecutive 5 year period or less, an automatic suspension of his/her Dangerous Game license for the period of one year will occur.

Lane,

For my education, how do you tell if a lion is 4.11 or 5.00 years of age or 5.11 or 6.00 years of age. Is tooth aging that accurate? If what you are talking about is an average of several lions then mathimatically if age is determined to one decimal point you can not go to two decimal points when you average.

465H&H

Walt,
You have a point. And It is not a sticking point for or anyone if it needs to be re-worded.

But...this is the reason why it was initially written that way.

We had to have strict cut-off dates for penalty assessment. In other words...if a lion was aged by a panel of experts to be in its 5th year...we did not want a legal contest to say well if it is 5 years and 8 months it is closer to 6 than 5. The line has to be somewhere so we wrote it to break on months...IE: a 5y 1 m lion is 5 the same as a 5 y 11m lion is 5. We would never age a lion as 5 y 11 m (impossible to do). But just remember...most 5 y 10m or > lions will probably x-ray into the 6 yr old category anyway.

I would not argue that it might need word tweaking there but basically...we were defining a 4 year old lion any lion deemed by the aging panel to be in its 4th year of age and a 5 year old lion to be any lion deemed to be in its 5th year of age.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does "honest and up front" also mean "sarcastic & point scoring"?

I do not recall a single instance where Andrew said "let us do nothing".

The below quote is a typical example of political gamesmanship.

_______________________________________

Lane said ....

quote:

Thought your gardener was working on it???

For your sake and the sake of the lion...I hope the ban is lifted.

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.


J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

Andrews words in the other thread..."I have more faith in my gardener helping that Dr. Paula White". Paula has done more than just about anyone I know in the scientific community to advocate for hunting...especially in Zambia. I was pretty taken back by Andrew's comment...so yes...I kind of fought fire with fire.

From fly camping for Sitatunga in the Bangweulu mud with Andrew Baldry in 2004 to Facing Sudanese Elephant poachers with AK47's in 2012 with Mike Fell. I have loved every minute of every day while in Africa. I have been fortunate enough to have collected most of her bounty. her killing fields have captivated me, her traditions and romance have proven to be a very powerful aphrodisiac.

Between my safaris, I laid awake at night dreaming of my return, mentally checking things off, staying fit, shooting straight and staying mentally focused. I miss those times.

This last week I shared some PM's with Mr Dogcat about loosing one's mojo. I agreed with him, but really cannot put a finger on as to why. I use to be an active poster here, I stopped for various reasons. One of which was the constant bickering, infighting, and behind the scenes nonsense that frankly is not becoming of men engaged in a sport for Gentlemen. I was not and am not without guilt, I partook in the festivities, many times with enthusiasm. I learned my lesson through time and maturation.

I have personally met about 5 AR guys either in the field or perhaps at SCI and without exception, they were all Gents I would share a camp, my home and frankly give the shirt off my back. That said, I don't get the tone of internet forums. They are all the same, there are internet KIA's everywhere. As far as knowledge, hunting experience, I don't and won't take a backseat to many here.

To Brads point; I agree with him. Does Brad break lots of dishes with a thread like this? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that I agree with him. I also appreciate him putting himself out there to make these points.

Both Aaron and Lane are guys I still communicate with off the forum, after my departure, both FB friends and I very much respect what they have both done in their respective professions. That said, I think they are both bullies when it comes to the LCTF.

There are numerous ways to present any message. The delivery of this one, is and has been hostile and condescending. It has been that way as far back as Worldhunter and Abie du Plooy. The presentation divided an otherwise cohesive group of international sport hunters into factions. That was about when I disappeared. The tone, as I see it is extremely hypocritical. If we, as a community, don't agree with them, we are part of the problem. How much money do I and others send to John Jackson or SCI or DSC? There are many more ways to participate in Lion conservation other than serving the masters of the LCTF.

I am also one thousand percent sure, they do not mean it to come across as it does to many of us. If Lion hunting has devolved into years and months of age rather than a shoot / no shoot scenario, fuck it. I'm done with it. I've hunted with Andrew really enjoy his company, wit and respect his bushcraft and judgement. BUT.....if the lion pictured presented itself, and I was told not to shoot it (under the first scenario) I would be sitting drinking tea and eating crumpets with Joloburn right now. Lion hunting, or the hunting of anything cannot come down to fractions. It is a sport of high emotion, snap decisions and living with those decisions. The delta of emotion involved in hunting is why I do it. The utter despair while on track of a wounded anything, and the euphoric jubilation of any hard won trophy. Face it, we are shooting guns at living animals, things are bound to go wrong on ocassion.

To Bobgrows post, "Leadership is seen as Narcissism". I disagree, Leadership in my narrow definition is leading by example. Not bludgeoning your peers with your opinion then discrediting and casting aside all others. If I cannot convince someone of something, I will look in the mirror and find the usual culprit.

If in fact AR is truly The prominent African Internet forum, and the LCTF uses AR for its communication, then Aaron and Lane have a duty (as I see it) to perfect a presentation that speaks to all of us, and doesn't talk down to us that may have varied opinions.

Please read, I have nowhere stated, I don't agree with their work.

Respectfully,

Steve

The one thing about hunting Africa I am glad of is my hunting days are over. I am 79 years of age and was fortunate enough to make 8 safaris before health and finances took over. Killed everything I wanted to EXCEPT a Lion. I tried hard and I really WANTED to shoot a lioness. If you notice I said Killed not took trophies as I enjoy the hunt and the kill not the trophy. The only trophies I have are the tusks of the last elephant and 2 zebra skin rugs. I would imagine that if the rules listed go into popular use Lion hunting will be gone. I would not care to be PH whose livlihood depended on the estimations required that can be overruled by later tests and I'm afraid it would drive the price even higher for the privilege of being second guessed. I'm afraid I could never hunt under those restrictions as all my hunts were for pleasure and my appraisal of wildlife in the bush is not that great. I'm afraid I must agree that the current state of disagreement has probably sealed the fate of the lion in Africa. Next will probably be Elephant. Very sad.

Nganga:

Well spoken!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does "honest and up front" also mean "sarcastic & point scoring"?

I do not recall a single instance where Andrew said "let us do nothing".

The below quote is a typical example of political gamesmanship.

_______________________________________

Lane said ....

quote:

Thought your gardener was working on it???

For your sake and the sake of the lion...I hope the ban is lifted.

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.


J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

Andrews words in the other thread..."I have more faith in my gardener helping that Dr. Paula White". Paula has done more than just about anyone I know in the scientific community to advocate for hunting...especially in Zambia. I was pretty taken back by Andrew's comment...so yes...I kind of fought fire with fire.

Lane,

You make assumptions about my gardener.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
From fly camping for Sitatunga in the Bangweulu mud with Andrew Baldry in 2004 to Facing Sudanese Elephant poachers with AK47's in 2012 with Mike Fell. I have loved every minute of every day while in Africa. I have been fortunate enough to have collected most of her bounty. her killing fields have captivated me, her traditions and romance have proven to be a very powerful aphrodisiac.

Between my safaris, I laid awake at night dreaming of my return, mentally checking things off, staying fit, shooting straight and staying mentally focused. I miss those times.

This last week I shared some PM's with Mr Dogcat about loosing one's mojo. I agreed with him, but really cannot put a finger on as to why. I use to be an active poster here, I stopped for various reasons. One of which was the constant bickering, infighting, and behind the scenes nonsense that frankly is not becoming of men engaged in a sport for Gentlemen. I was not and am not without guilt, I partook in the festivities, many times with enthusiasm. I learned my lesson through time and maturation.

I have personally met about 5 AR guys either in the field or perhaps at SCI and without exception, they were all Gents I would share a camp, my home and frankly give the shirt off my back. That said, I don't get the tone of internet forums. They are all the same, there are internet KIA's everywhere. As far as knowledge, hunting experience, I don't and won't take a backseat to many here.

To Brads point; I agree with him. Does Brad break lots of dishes with a thread like this? Yes. But it doesn't change the fact that I agree with him. I also appreciate him putting himself out there to make these points.

Both Aaron and Lane are guys I still communicate with off the forum, after my departure, both FB friends and I very much respect what they have both done in their respective professions. That said, I think they are both bullies when it comes to the LCTF.

There are numerous ways to present any message. The delivery of this one, is and has been hostile and condescending. It has been that way as far back as Worldhunter and Abie du Plooy. The presentation divided an otherwise cohesive group of international sport hunters into factions. That was about when I disappeared. The tone, as I see it is extremely hypocritical. If we, as a community, don't agree with them, we are part of the problem. How much money do I and others send to John Jackson or SCI or DSC? There are many more ways to participate in Lion conservation other than serving the masters of the LCTF.

I am also one thousand percent sure, they do not mean it to come across as it does to many of us. If Lion hunting has devolved into years and months of age rather than a shoot / no shoot scenario, fuck it. I'm done with it. I've hunted with Andrew really enjoy his company, wit and respect his bushcraft and judgement. BUT.....if the lion pictured presented itself, and I was told not to shoot it (under the first scenario) I would be sitting drinking tea and eating crumpets with Joloburn right now. Lion hunting, or the hunting of anything cannot come down to fractions. It is a sport of high emotion, snap decisions and living with those decisions. The delta of emotion involved in hunting is why I do it. The utter despair while on track of a wounded anything, and the euphoric jubilation of any hard won trophy. Face it, we are shooting guns at living animals, things are bound to go wrong on ocassion.

To Bobgrows post, "Leadership is seen as Narcissism". I disagree, Leadership in my narrow definition is leading by example. Not bludgeoning your peers with your opinion then discrediting and casting aside all others. If I cannot convince someone of something, I will look in the mirror and find the usual culprit.

If in fact AR is truly The prominent African Internet forum, and the LCTF uses AR for its communication, then Aaron and Lane have a duty (as I see it) to perfect a presentation that speaks to all of us, and doesn't talk down to us that may have varied opinions.

Please read, I have nowhere stated, I don't agree with their work.

Respectfully,

Steve

Excellent post Nganga.

I was always brought up to be respectful when its due. Its not what you say, its the way that you say it.
No matter how many times you have your ass kicked in the woodshed.jc

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Does "honest and up front" also mean "sarcastic & point scoring"?

I do not recall a single instance where Andrew said "let us do nothing".

The below quote is a typical example of political gamesmanship.

_______________________________________

Lane said ....

quote:

Thought your gardener was working on it???

For your sake and the sake of the lion...I hope the ban is lifted.

But if you think doing nothing is the better way and if no one can do anything to help...well...carry on...all I got to say.


J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

Andrews words in the other thread..."I have more faith in my gardener helping that Dr. Paula White". Paula has done more than just about anyone I know in the scientific community to advocate for hunting...especially in Zambia. I was pretty taken back by Andrew's comment...so yes...I kind of fought fire with fire.

Lane,

You make assumptions about my gardener.

Actually, judging lions age by their teeth pointless for us anyway.

By that time he is already dead.

We need to find a way of judging lions on their feet.

Of course, the silly "trophy" industry has seen to it that farm bred lions are transported into free roaming lions and shot so they can appear in the SCI record book.

LCTF is trying to do something, and I think they are doing a great job.

Sometimes in the past they have criticized a members for shooting a lion that they deemed too you, despite the fact that neither the client, nor his PH was aware of this fact. And the country they were hunting in did not require a 6 year minimum age for lions.

Reminding us that the lion in question is too you, there is nothing wrong with that.

BUT, I think the wording is taken too far in making the hunter feel that he has done something earth shaking.

Which, in fact, is not the case.

It is very good that we are discussing this in a very honest and open manner.

I have shot lions that were under 6 years old, and I have absolutely nothing to apologize for.

They were legal to be shot when I shot them.

I have shot lionesses.
They were legal were I hunted.

I hunt lions every year.
And I rely on the judgment of my PH whether a lion is a shooter or not.

@Nganga