quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
Your question above can be be reworded to "if Europeans were not genetically inferior as a race...why had they not figured out the cause and cure of bubonic plague when around the same time Baghdad was thriving as a center of commerce and learning?" or couple of dozen other ways.

Had anyone figued out bacteriology at that time??? NO! If the people of Bagdad at that time had the ability to view, culture, and kill bacteria...I would say they were genetically superior...but they didn't.
================================================
They hadn't even figured out a way to dispose of waste and sewage, something that Indus valley civilizations had discovered 5000 years prior. Also at the time of the golden age of Middle East, the medical discoveries made by their scientists and surgical procedures perfected by them would make Europe look like uncivilized land of savages

quote:

How would you explain the vast divide between the progress of North and South Korea and a huge difference between the living standards? Surely you can't attribute it to genetics.

This is a stupid comparison...as the North has limited itself by dictator oppression. Over time however...that will influence genetics.

May be you did not understand my point. I said precisely the same thing that political ideology can be the determining factor in the progress of a society not genetics


As far as oppression changing the genetics overtime, you have lost me there. How come hundreds of years of oppression in Europe didn't make the European genetics inferior?

quote:

Thier traditional cultural beliefs and mores held them back.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Just a thought. It is now generally accepted that mankind hatched in Southern Africa and then spread throughout the world over a period of, give or take, eighty thousand years. Over that period, the rest of humankind developed building skills, medicin, mathematics, agriculture and astronomy. Around four to three hunred years ago, European explorers, [the first of the bloody colonialists] pitched up for a look around. Guess what, they found nothing. Over the preceeding eighty-odd thousand years, f#*k all had happened. Damn!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
At some point in time...somebody had to be smart enough to progress past cultural beliefs of the time. And those that were not...they stayed in the stone age.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Oppression creates selective breeding. Selective breeding alters genetics.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Oppression creates selective breeding. Selective breeding alters genetics.

You still didn't explain why European genetics have not been rendered inferior due to hundreds of years of oppression?

And for someone who is almost working in medical field, you sure have very little knowledge of medical research done in the Mid East from 10th to 13th century.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

The europeans eventually over came there oppression. It was not good for genetics while it lasted.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
Harris,

Why in the hell do you keep debating with a fruitcake........

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I am a surgeon...I have been doing arthroscopic surgery for 10 hours today. I am still waiting for Harris to name one surgical technique that was successful in Eastern medicine in the 10th-13th century. Western medicine brought human health into the 21st century...not Eastern. Even a fruit-cake would recognize that.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Good question LEDVM. .

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:
The problem with these sort of discussions is that you always have that group that basically insinuates that the blacks are genetically inferior to whites.

And they are not. The fact is that culturally they have been brought from the stone age to the modern era in less than 100 years. Thier culture, and various traditional hang ups have held them back.

And culture is a tough nut to crack.

The fact that almost all african independence movements were socialist in origin is also proving to be a huge handicap.

So you combine cultures that for various reasons the people have a hard time taking the 'long-view' when it comes to life and combine it with communism - and modern africa is what you get.

Same thing applies to anywhere else, like chicago for instance... except those results are almost entierly socialist in origin.

You then have those guys that love to haul out the debunked racial IQ studies. Which actually to a degree prove my point. Asians have the consistently highest test results. But it is the western nations that have ruled the global roost for the last few hundred years.

Why? Thier (eastern) culture and acceptance of socialism have held them back. And why are countries like china now starting to come into thier own?

By the acceptance of certain western cultural values into thier society, like capitalism, and personal freedom. (to varying degrees)

Low time preference cultural thinking and the indoctrination of socialist thought for the last 60 years or so is the real reason Africa is getting so "stuffed-up" as it is.

We must remeber that socialism is a very seductive doctrine, and very difficult to combat or get rid of. And the western nations are starting to feel the effects of adopting varying degrees of socialist policies.

When your culture and political institutions drift away from the doctrine of personal freedom and individual self-reliance, you are starting the slow slide into the abyss.


.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Why is just the black man's fault?

THAT is the crux of the argument & the FACT is that ALL the bad policies that are affecting Zimbabwe (which is the country under discussion) are being implemented & enforced SOLELY by black men.

I'm not suggesting that ALL black men/people are at fault just that all of the men/people who are at fault (in this case) are black.

And quite honestly, the same statements can be applied to pretty much every African country.

As I've said before, there are black people/leaders that do have their heads screwed on right & are shrewd & intelligent such as Tutu, Mandela & Ramaphosa but the real truth is, they're FAR from average.

I appreciate it's not politically correct to point that out but it's the cold hard truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Good question LEDVM. .

Not really. I would say it's rather absurd that someone as educated as Lane would seriously pose such a question. I tend to agree with the message of the original quote in question even if I object to its tone or nature. Threads like this always bring out the worst in SOME on this sight. Sad........

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I am a surgeon...I have been doing arthroscopic surgery for 10 hours today. I am still waiting for Harris to name one surgical technique that was successful in Eastern medicine in the 10th-13th century. Western medicine brought human health into the 21st century...not Eastern. Even a fruit-cake would recognize that.

Ok "Doctor" .

You are waiting for me to answer a question you never asked yet you conveniently ignored answering my question?

Just for starters, the superiority of medical science in the Mid East during that time period is not even debatable. The works of Majusi, Averroes, Rhazes and Albucasis and many others still survive. Mind you this is just a fraction of the work that survived the Mongols.

Yale library has some medical books and research papers from that era. (If you ever happen to cross the Mason-Dixon line, you should check them out)

Now I don't have any medical background so I will only write down which I could find on the internet.

Majusi (10th century) Book "Al Kitab Al Malki)

Some of the procedures described in the book:
Catheterization, Cyst removal, removal of tumors of breast and uterus, treating aneurysm, drainage of abscesses, extraction of arrows, surgical treatment of hydrocephalus, surgical removal of nasal polyps, extraction of teeth, tonsillectomy.

Rhazes (9th-10th century) Book "Al=Hawi"
Some of his works
Stitching the wounds, using alcohol for cleaning wounds, 1st recorded successful operation of cataract, tracheotomy (step by step record of the procedure he performed), definition of over 200 surgical instruments, most of which were invented by him.

First person to describe the differences between smallpox and measles.

Detailed work on allergies and immunology.

Some quotes about him:

"His writings on smallpox and measles show originality and accuracy, and his essay on infectious diseases was the first scientific treatise on the subject." – The Bulletin of the World Health Organization (May 1970)

"In today's world we tend to see scientific advance as the product of great movements, massive grant-funded projects, and larger-than-life socio-economic forces. It is easy to forget, therefore, that many contributions stemmed from the individual efforts of scholars like Rhazes. Indeed, pharmacy can trace much of its historical foundations to the singular achievements of this ninth-century Persian scholar." — Michael E. Flannery
Now that your wait is over, can I please have my answer?

quote:

Brett,
This whole latter debate in this thread was whether or not genetics influences IQ.

My stance is that it does. Basically, no modern scientist founded in fact could argue otherwise.

That is the only point I was making.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
...This whole latter debate in this thread was whether or not genetics influences IQ.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Harris,
Please restate the exact question you want me to answer so that I waste as little time as possible to satisfy you.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
Harris,

Why in the hell do you keep debating with a fruitcake........

jjs,

you have to admit there is a lot of humor in his theories. Grab a seat and enjoy a good laugh.

Wait till he tells us why Africans are not able to right the genetic wrongs that Europeans managed to accomplish by overcoming oppression.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Harris,
Please restate the exact question you want me to answer so that I waste as little time as possible to satisfy you.

Lane, I asked a very simple question. Let's stay on the topic, shall we?

You stated that oppression is bad for genetics.

I asked If that was true, how come European genetics have not become inferior after several hundred years of oppression?


you stated "because Europeans were able eventually overcome oppression"


My follow up question was, If your theory is correct, then do you think Africans can improve their genetics just like Europeans did by overcoming oppression and building functional and progressive societies or in your opinion they are not capable of it?

The only way genetics are improved are by selective mating. In the wild...animals have built in mate selection criteria that theoretically make females choose genetically superior males. I the human world...with out natural selection in modern times...it takes conscious mate selection to improve genetics and with the lifespan of people...centuries of time.

As far as smart ass comments, I have not said anything degrading to you or anyone except that I find your theories humorous.

I find it equally humorous that you think genetics don't play role in how societies evolve over time. I just thought it rude to point out to you in a civil public debate.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Brett,
This whole latter debate in this thread was whether or not genetics influences IQ.

My stance is that it does. Basically, no modern scientist founded in fact could argue otherwise.

That is the only point I was making.

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:

quote:

Brett,
This whole latter debate in this thread was whether or not genetics influences IQ.

My stance is that it does. Basically, no modern scientist founded in fact could argue otherwise.

That is the only point I was making.

A very obvious point that the PC among us just cannot emotionally accept.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Give it up Ledvm What seems obvious to to you and me is so unacceptable to others that they can not get their brains around it. What passes for education in this country is apalling.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
THIS IS A CULTURAL ISSUE . THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE OR IQ!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
Lane,
Do you have any data or reference to any study that shows the genetic mutation in Europeans or Asians after the oppression?

In other words, any documented proof that the genes improved? Remember that you have already stated above that oppression was bad for the European gene while it lasted.

Another question, if genetic mutation is a lenghty process, and in your opinion genes and not culture are the determining factor in establishing progressive societies how can you explain Europe coming out of the dark ages and going into the industrial era within a few generations? How can you explain Japan doing it in even fewer generations?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Now back to the original question: Why did Africa never progress past the stone-age before European influence intervened? I am willing to bet my reputation that the answer is genetically influenced.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jim and Brett,

You 2 are friends and I'll accept criticism from my friends.

Y'all call it crap and I call it what is wrong in the USA today.

While it is fine to tell every child he/she can be a rocket scientist, major league baseball player, or President and encourage them to reach their peak and excel to their fullest abilities...the bottom line is that they all CAN'T BE. The truth is that they can only reach their predetermined genetic potential. For some that is to hit 50+ homeruns a year, others to be the leader of the free world, still others to put rockets on Mars. But...what we all don't want to talk about...is for some...it is driving the trash truck...and that is the cold hard truth based in cold hard fact.

I wanted to play college baseball and I was almost there. Trouble was...my nerve conductance in my periocular muscles is just not quite fast enough to track fast balls from the pitchers hand all the way to homeplate...I just didn't have the genetics and no amount of work or practice could over come it. Just a biological fact that I had to accept.

Now...the number 2 problem we have in the US is that nobody wants to haul the trash. We have become a society that has told everybody they don't have to haul the trash and they can be a lawyer instead. Then when their genetics don't allow it...we say awe heck...just sit on the couch and watch TV cause I wouldn't want to haul the trash either. We'll pay an illegal immigrant to do it.

Here's the rub though. SOMEBODY HAS TO HAUL THE TRASH!!! And for some people...it is all they are genetically capable of. We shouldn't vilify them...we should recognize it is a needed job to make the world go 'round and encourage them to make the best of it and CONTRIBUTE to society rather than drag it down.

Now back to the original question: Why did Africa never progress past the stone-age before European influence intervened? I am willing to bet my reputation that the answer is genetically influenced.