I enjoy reading books on Africana, especially books about people on safari in the mid-to-late 1990s. I did my first safari in 2002, followed by another safari in 2003.

One of the biggest differences I noticed was that the PHs of my hunts, very seldom stated "Don't shoot, we can do better".

The PH telling the client not to shoot, was one of the most common themes in those books. The client, more than ready to shoot an animal he/she thought to be a worthy trophy, was told by the PH, time and time again, not to shoot, let find something better.

On my two safaris, only a couple times (when hunting elephant), did the PH, tell me to pass up on a marginal animal.

I wonder if safari hunting has become more of a commodity, where PHs try to have the client fill his/her tags with the first acceptable animal, of, if the number of quality animals has just decreased to a point, where shooting an "acceptable" animal is the best you can hope for on a typical 7 - 14 day hunt?

Any thoughts?

BH63

Depends on who you are hunting with.

I routinely hear we can do better.

Really, it is a matter of what expectations you pass on to your PH, and how game rich the area is. If you tell the PH that you want a representative animal, of course the first one will be good to go. If you tell him you want the best you can find, you may not shoot one (if you are serious) and most PH know their areas pretty well.

Communications. The day of SSB radios are long gone. Now Sat. Phones, cell phones, wifi.

In regards to passing on animals, today people want to go to Africa on a 7 day hunts and kill everything. Fifteen days is considered a fairly long safari.

In the old days one month was considered short, Ruark's safaris were 3 months long IIRC.

You can pass on a bunch of animals in three months and still kill everything on license.

In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

I went in 2012 (Zim) and 13 and 14 (SA) and was told quite a few times "we can find a bigger one".

BH63

I read over your original post again. Are you saying that the safaris in the '90's are what you consider old time safaris? Regardless of that I don't think there is any trend to not turn down less desirable trophies now than in the past 25 years. It all depends on who you hunt with and what your expectations are. If you tell the PH on your 7 day safari that you want 10 animals and it's important to you you'll probably not end up with Top 10 trophies. If on the other hand you tell the PH you'd like to take some good representatives of what the area offers you'll probably get good trophies for the area. I only had one PH that was happy with just filling the the list with one of everything and that was exactly 20 years ago.

Mark

I can't say as I ever worried about the "trophy" size too much - if I like em - I shoot em, if not - I don't. Most PHs will usually hunt for a "mature" animal, unless you ask them otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

Not impossible for sure Jim. Elephant and lion are both big stumbling blocks these days. All I am saying is I don't remember the last time I saw a report where all 4 were taken on 1 safari.

In the 70's early 80's it was routine to take 4 buffalo, 2 elephants (yes I said 2), lion and leopard in the Selous.

Last time I remember this happening was when General Shwarzkoff took them in Botswana when elephant reopened in the late 90's I believe. That window was very tight as lion was closed shortly thereafter.
Although "technically" still possible in the Selous it ain't happening!

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

Not impossible for sure Jim. Elephant and lion are both big stumbling blocks these days. All I am saying is I don't remember the last time I saw a report where all 4 were taken on 1 safari.

In the 70's early 80's it was routine to take 4 buffalo, 2 elephants (yes I said 2), lion and leopard in the Selous.

Last time I remember this happening was when General Shwarzkoff took them in Botswana when elephant reopened in the late 90's I believe. That window was very tight as lion was closed shortly thereafter.
Although "technically" still possible in the Selous it ain't happening!

My booking agent has a client that took all 4 on one Safari. He took them in M'barangandu. Thats where Mark Sullivan is hunting now.

He sent me the guys pictures from that safari when I was looking into hunting with Mark for next year.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

Not impossible for sure Jim. Elephant and lion are both big stumbling blocks these days. All I am saying is I don't remember the last time I saw a report where all 4 were taken on 1 safari.

In the 70's early 80's it was routine to take 4 buffalo, 2 elephants (yes I said 2), lion and leopard in the Selous.

Last time I remember this happening was when General Shwarzkoff took them in Botswana when elephant reopened in the late 90's I believe. That window was very tight as lion was closed shortly thereafter.
Although "technically" still possible in the Selous it ain't happening!

My booking agent has a client that took all 4 on one Safari. He took them in M'barangandu. Thats where Mark Sullivan is hunting now.

He sent me the guys pictures from that safari when I was looking into hunting with Mark for next year.

How recent was that hunt? You could have done it up until about 2009/10 maybe but I didn't think anyone was taking elephant there these days. Was M'barangandu spared the poaching?

Save would be your best bet right now if one were to buy up the limited quota.

I do remember a fairly recent photo from Roger Whittall safaris that had the big 4 taken on one hunt. When I say recent I am talking 6-8 years ago.

Just for clarification when I say big 4 I mean trophy big 4, not tuskless...

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

Not impossible for sure Jim. Elephant and lion are both big stumbling blocks these days. All I am saying is I don't remember the last time I saw a report where all 4 were taken on 1 safari.

In the 70's early 80's it was routine to take 4 buffalo, 2 elephants (yes I said 2), lion and leopard in the Selous.

Last time I remember this happening was when General Shwarzkoff took them in Botswana when elephant reopened in the late 90's I believe. That window was very tight as lion was closed shortly thereafter.
Although "technically" still possible in the Selous it ain't happening!

My booking agent has a client that took all 4 on one Safari. He took them in M'barangandu. Thats where Mark Sullivan is hunting now.

He sent me the guys pictures from that safari when I was looking into hunting with Mark for next year.

How recent was that hunt? You could have done it up until about 2009/10 maybe but I didn't think anyone was taking elephant there these days. Was M'barangandu spared the poaching?

To be completely transparent, I don't remember. I think it was within the last 5-6 years.

Elephant are a problem. I spoke to Mark before booking and in general conversation he mentioned their sparseness in comparison to past years.

As far as poaching goes. Poachers don't mess with Chuck Norris....or Mark Sullivan

I hunted Kilwa concession last year. What a horrible tragedy. I saw probably 100-120 poached elephant carcasses. The 10-12 live elephants I saw all had bleeding bullet holes or had a wire.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
In the not too distant past you had a "general bag" 21 day safari that included the big 4 and all plains game found in the area.

Now hunts tend to be specialized and not many, if any, areas can offer the big 4.

We were lucky enough to have exactly that in 2012 as first in at Royal Kafue. We did have Elephant on quota as well but none worth shooting were found.

Cheers
Jim

Not impossible for sure Jim. Elephant and lion are both big stumbling blocks these days. All I am saying is I don't remember the last time I saw a report where all 4 were taken on 1 safari.

In the 70's early 80's it was routine to take 4 buffalo, 2 elephants (yes I said 2), lion and leopard in the Selous.

Last time I remember this happening was when General Shwarzkoff took them in Botswana when elephant reopened in the late 90's I believe. That window was very tight as lion was closed shortly thereafter.
Although "technically" still possible in the Selous it ain't happening!

My booking agent has a client that took all 4 on one Safari. He took them in M'barangandu. Thats where Mark Sullivan is hunting now.

He sent me the guys pictures from that safari when I was looking into hunting with Mark for next year.

How recent was that hunt? You could have done it up until about 2009/10 maybe but I didn't think anyone was taking elephant there these days. Was M'barangandu spared the poaching?

To be completely transparent, I don't remember. I think it was within the last 5-6 years.

Elephant are a problem. I spoke to Mark before booking and in general conversation he mentioned their sparseness in comparison to past years.

As far as poaching goes. Poachers don't mess with Chuck Norris....or Mark Sullivan

I hunted Kilwa concession last year. What a horrible tragedy. I saw probably 100-120 poached elephant carcasses. The 10-12 live elephants I saw all had bleeding bullet holes or had a wire.

It is a shame Steve. 5-6 years might as well be 50 years in that part of the world. As I eluded to in previous posts for all practical purposes its over.

You're 100% correct. As long as there is corruptible politicians in African countries and people in the bush willing to take chances, Elephants are screwed.

I believe the efforts to stop poaching are nothing more than window dressing to make us think something is being done, and they care.

Safaris have been going down hill since the end of the colonial period coupled with the growth of the SCI mentality and the awards programs. Coupled with the one day flight to Africa rather than the month long boat trip each way.
Just sayin'.
Cal

If I had the permits, it would have been easy to shoot the big 4 in trophy quality at Maswa (Tanzania) in 2014. The elephant I saw were not that bad... Best was maybe 60# and we were not really looking for elephant. Saw lion sign everywhere and leopard a couple times, with only 10 days on the ground.

If you have the money, and can disregard the silly US government import regs, there are some spots that you can still shoot the big 4 in the wild realistically in a 21 day hunt.

Yes, getting fewer and fewer, but still a few.

quote:

If I had the permits, it would have been easy to shoot the big 4 in trophy quality at Maswa (Tanzania) in 2014. The elephant I saw were not that bad... Best was maybe 60# and we were not really looking for elephant. Saw lion sign everywhere and leopard a couple times, with only 10 days on the ground.

If you have the money, and can disregard the silly US government import regs, there are some spots that you can still shoot the big 4 in the wild realistically in a 21 day hunt.

Yes, getting fewer and fewer, but still a few.

I second that!

You could do it in Matetsi, Dande, any area in Zambia that has elephant quota, Save, Kruger border areas both in SA and Moz off the top of my head.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
BH63

I read over your original post again. Are you saying that the safaris in the '90's are what you consider old time safaris?

Mark

Actually, I should have said '80's and '90's. I just bought a bunch of books from Safari Press and have been reading them. Most of those safari's took place around that time frame. That was fresh in my mind when I made that post. My bad.

And no, I have read a lot of books about the olden days - hunts in the '40s, '50s, '60s, and '70s as well. But I consider them an entirely different ballgame and was trying to focus on the differences, if any, in the last couple of decades.

BH63

BH63,

Perhaps I'm just dating myself as the 90's seems like very recent history to me. For myself "Old Time" safari starts with Ruark and Hemingway and goes back from there.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
...Perhaps I'm just dating myself as the 90's seems like very recent history to me...

Exactly what I was thinking. The original question painted an entirely different picture for me than the revised explanation did.

Is there a way to use the Ignore function to weed out threads that are begun during the summer when all the kids are out of school?

it's all about the $$$. Run clients in and out on a weekly basis and double your income. Charge a lot more on a daily rate, and re-double your income.

That, coupled with clients, as was said, who want to kill two weeks of animals in a week' time...

80's and 90's old style by azz ld them were some of my prime hunting times dogone whippersnapper probably owns a blaser

What has changed mainly are the duration and the price!!!

But also, the availability of dangerous game. Sad, that, most of all.

What has changed has been the easy global reach, instantaneous communications and a world of instant gratification, rather than time tested patience, and enjoying every aspect of a safari. Many are worried about "book" animals so they can broadcast their achievements over social media. Furthermore, everyone now has to stay engaged with the office or others, no matter where you are. Most don't take the time to disengage from the rest of the world and enjoy the experience. As an example, just watch any group of people wherever you are, and 99% of them are actively engaged with their i-phones, not with the world or with those around them. I'm a lawyer with a busy law practice, but when I leave for safari, my i-phone goes off in Atlanta and does not come back on until I arrive back in Atlanta. I carry a satellite phone for occasional use, but that's it. I want to enjoy every minute that I have in Africa without constant interruptions or worries. An African Hunter today needs to get as "old style" and as "old school" as he or she can get during safari. Just my two cents worth.

When to country of Zim was orderly, the conservation of game was the prime concern of th e operators. Without Game they could not hunt, selections were good, game was plentyful
. Now with the blacks stealing the land and poaching everything in sight the focus has changed to getting it before the poachers do, because they will get it.

I really liked a lot of the comments posted. In about 3 weeks I will be going a 10-day, single animal hunt. For a trophy buff. My goal is to shoot a buff over 40 inches, with a decent buff. I will try my darnest not to shoot a lessor buff. I already have two buff mounts. These are nice, typical buff heads with decent bosses and about 34" wide. Very representative, but not a real trophy in the sense of an outstanding animal of that species.

I figure the hunt will turn out in one of 3 ways:

a) I get the bull I wanted within the time frame.

b) I shoot a bull that is close, but not quite what I wanted

c) I shoot nothing.

I will let you know how this safari turns out.

BH63

PS It is also possible that my physical limitations might prevent me from getting the bull of my dreams, in spite of the efforts of the PH and his staff. I will own up to that failure, if indeed that is the case.