This whole topic of back up shots is interesting. Let's flip it around. Who backs up the PH and when?

I have seen lots of examples where there is an unexpected charge by an unwounded animal and the PH is forced shoot. I would say that in well more than half of those instances, the brave client can be seen beating a quick retreat to the rear leaving the PH to back up himself. Seems like it is a lot easier for the hunters to be brave and tell the PH, "Let me put as many badly placed shots into the animal as I can before you back me up and shoot", than it is to stand their ground when the shit hits the fan.

Is the client supposed to stand tall by the PH and help resolve the matter or is the client's job to ensure that he is the first one back to the Cruiser?

Back in the day (college...and thank God they are over) Mike...I got in quite few bar fights backing up friends only to find them later sitting in the truck.

As I said on the other post...there are hunters and then there ARE HUNTERS.

Of course...any MAN should stay and help the PH.

Curious Lane, is your experience the same as mine in terms of what you have seen on video clips of unexpected, close-in charges? Off the top of my head I can recall at least half a dozen clips where the client and the PH are either approaching an animal or watching an animal, the animal catches their wind and charges, and the next thing you see is the client with his back to the animal headed to the rear.

quote:

Off the top of my head I can recall at least half a dozen clips where the client and the PH are either approaching an animal or watching an animal, the animal catches their wind and charges, and the next thing you see is the client with his back to the animal headed to the rear

I have seen some of those as well...but...I hope it is not the norm.

Sadly, we keep hearing of more charges lately than we did before.

This could be due to the fact that there are a lot more people going to hunt in Africa than before.

It could also be due to carelessness, due to both the PH and and the client.

Oner hears stories of clients wounding an animal, turn around to the PH and say ÿou can go after it now" and head back to the truck.

Some clients, according to some PH, are best left behind if there is any chance of a charge.

I know some Ph who actually have asked the client to stay behind when the likelyhood of getting into a stickly situation arises.

Some PH give the client the choice of going after the wounded animal, or leaving the PH to go after it alone.

I suppose when we have so many PHs and so many clients out in the field, one tends to get quite a few who really have no business being there in the first place.

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.I got in quite few bar fights backing up friends only to find them later sitting in the truck

welcome to the club

Did I not see recently a PH pleading with his client to "come back" to save him from a charging elephant?? Huh? Huh?

God is the Ph's back up just before he bends over and kiss's the tender parts of himself good bye.
from some of the recent postings I have seen here most guys could not be trusted to back you up if you where being charged by a savage 8 week old puppy

Mike, interesting angle...

Shortly after the unwounded elephant charged Martin and I, still out of breath, said something to the effect of "Thank you for not leaving me". At that point we didn't know where his shot went (it had gone up thru the "chin" and hit the base of the spine), and shooting from a semi-kneeling position he had fallen backwards into some brush and was vulnerable. My shot right after his hit the brain and by all accounts it appeared as though had I not made the shot one of us, maybe both, would have been hit. We actually both killed her.

His most sincere and genuine comment still strikes me very odd...I mean what else would I, or you, or others do???

Apparently, and I have heard accounts from multiple PH's, some very funny stories actually as nobody got hurt, it is not uncommon for the client to haul arse! Maybe these are the smart ones!!!

This of course was all “good practice” for the following day when the hippo charged and I was solo. Which can happen too, although I suspect statistically this is extremely unlikely. Although, this is how Bob Fontana was killed by that buffalo, I believe.

Not to sound like a dork, but a standing order I have when hunting with one of my sons is that the PH’s primary responsibility is my son, and that he should not worry about me. I would venture a guess that others who hunt DG with children/wives have – or should have – the same edict. In a situation where we are grouped, I would expect to be the one to step-up.

Many of us have hunted w/Appy’s especially in Zim, and I have never met one who would run and leave the PH and/or client dangling. Well, maybe one!

Last thought, the cameraman are potentially useful too in absorbing charges...although the ones I have hunted with are as clever as the trackers in getting themselves out of harm’s way, hung-over or not!

Not to change the subject, but what about the clips that we have all seen where the PH instructs the entire group(including himself) to run?

I believe Saeed posted one a few years ago.

I have never understood this as I am slow and prone to trip at the worst moments. In this type of situation I would be the one to be killed.

For this reason I have always felt safer(with rifle in hand) facing the animal. And no I'm not saying that I have nerves of steel, or that I trust myself to stop the charge(I frighten easily and my shooting is nothing to brag about. And that's the truth), I just feel less safe trying to run away.

I don't think I have ever outrun any type of danger, so I stopped trying a long time ago.

Jason, in my experience the "RUN" command is given when the PH believes that the critter in question will not pursue too far (like a hippo boilling out of a pool of water), and does not want to be in position to have to shoot the animal. I have witnessed numerous times elephant for example, "coming" - but not "charging" (perhaps an important differentiating factor) - and stopping at the location where we were to smell and get a read. So…it is good if you are not standing there. I think often the ele is heading towards where he/she suspects something to be, perhaps based on an unnatural noise of movement (not the smell of a human). Very common after an ele in a herd is shot.

I don't think I have ever run from a buffalo??? Maybe not the most prudent course of action. But then again, I have never been charged by one either! Rhino, yes, standard practice given their eye sight AND nobody wants to shoot a protected rhino!

I have only been involved in a long “sprint” once in the Caprivi…to the truck…but man you should have seen this bull ele boiling…very impressive w/a cloud of dust coming up from his feet. He ran to where we were standing…and it was my fault as I was taking video and the camera beeped or something. Pretty neat footage as I recall, the ele looks, takes off, we run, camera rolling as I pump, then laughter of relief when at the truck. Aw, them were the days….

But I agree, I don't like to turn-tail and run either. I'd rather stand too personally. But sometimes a hasty retreat is part of the cat-and-mouse game especially when amongst elephant.

It just depends on whether is enough room to run. If you are actually getting charged there is no time to run. You sure as hell cannot outrun an elephant.

Of course, some of us on AR have perfected the art of running backwards...at least until we crash into the cameraman or go ass-over-tin-cups over a log.

I have found that no matter what game I am hunting. I do whatever the PH tells me too, no questions asked. Wikus probably saved us from alot of trouble when he told us to "get out" when a small herd of elephants decided that didnt want us in a very heavily wooded area. Myself and the 2 trackers and game scout did, but he knew exactly what to do and when! It pays to be a good listener when your in Africa!!!

If the PH says "run" I slowwwwly move off. I'm too old and out of shape to run very fast or far; so I'd probably be the one getting gored or clawed, or trampled either way. I am NOT a hero, but I figure to stand there and take my share of what ever goes down as best I can. As mentioned here, a man does what he has to do.

Rich

I would never run, just stand and make the best of it.

BigB

We have often, not run but beat a hasty retreat when around cow herds and the lead cow shows behavior that says "Now, where in the hell are they?". It may be prudent to move back to a clearing where you have a little more time to see her if she comes (happened twice to me). Or after you knock one down out of a herd and the rest of the herd is close. It isn't a I'm scared, type of run but a move to a more defensible position. Now that I think about it there were more than two such occasions. They keep popping up as I relive some of my hunts. I have never been actually scared around buff or elephants. Usually things happen too fast to for me get scared. But I have been known to be a slow thinker without much imagination.

As Bill C said, black rhino are another thing all together. I have run three times from them because my PH said, "It is much easier to take a goring by a rhino than to try to explain to Parks why you shot one of their precious rhinos".

465H&H

I suppose there are times to run, but I cannot name a single dangerous game animal in Africa that I can out run so whats the point? But I do know that you cant fight when your running with your back to them. I guess the Marine Corps training and instinct is to stand your ground, maneuver and deliver devastating fire on the enemy. If all parties are laid out with intersecting fields of fire or mutually reenforcing positions and no one runs the chance of not killing the animal would be small. That being said I have not applied this training to dangerous game of the four footed type yet.

But as stated in other posts there are the mock charges and the protected animals that make a hasty retreat prudent. But regardless of that, when push comes to shove I will fight before I die with a horn, tusk or teeth in my back.

I have a shirt I purchased this summer that says: You don't have to out-run bears, just your friends!

Back on topic: I'd think standing your ground & taking a shot is better than turning your back to a creature that can out-run & maul you. Climbing a tree, if available, makes a sense as well over running.

There is one example in particular that stands out to me. Last year there was a Tracks Across Africa episode where two Canadian clients, male and female, were hunting in Zim. I cannot recall the PH. It was very thick and very green -- must have been an early season hunt. At one point in the hunt, they come across an ele cow in the brush 20 or 25 yards in front of them. They freeze and the cow is staring them down for some time. If I recall correctly, the PH throws a rock or something to try and get the cow to break off so they can move. As soon as he throws the rock, the cow charges. The PH stands his ground and the client looks like the fellow depicted in the song The Streak by Ray Stevens -- he is out of there like a bolt. The PH has a double and puts the cow down on the second shot. If that shot had not done the trick the PH was toe jam. Irony is that later in the hunt the client shot a damn fine bull elephant (on a long open shot). Maybe others recall the episode. I remember calling my wife, come look at this guy crack and run, amazing.

From an earlier post which reminds me that running or relying on the P.H. sometimes just ain't an option:

quote:

With absolutely not the slightest bit of warning, just seventeen yards in front of me, the bush exploded in sun-dappled violence and multiple shades of gray, black, dirty browns and dusty tans. I saw Clement, still bent at the waist, spin to his left and then scurry backwards on a supporting hand. Lou could see nothing as the tree blocked his view and he was turned to the left somewhat, himself...

...I had not the least doubt as to what was happening. A big grey-black hulk was at full-stride coming directly at my body.

I never had the slightest thought of running because it was immediately evident that
1. I had no where to go and
2. I had no time to go there.

If I'd had a chance to ponder... who knows???

If ever such an unfortunate event is upon us,one has to do whatever they must do to stay alive and live with dignity.

Stand and fight! The only rational course of action, IMO. I have been charged and have also had some very strange confrontations at close quarters with a few Buff, wherein had I run I doubt I would be writing this. When you find yourself looking eye to eye with a Buff at 2-3 yards, there aren't a lot of options.

Although I've hunted and taken Buff in Tanzania and Mozambique, the nastiest Buff I've come across resided in the Mwanya of Zambia.

Mike,
Interesting question.
On my trip to Dande with Dean Kendall, I noted his lead tracker was scared up on the arms. I asked him what happened. A leopard was wounded, they followed up. The leopard charged, got on Dean and was gnawing on him. The lead tracker whacked the leopard with something, the leopard jumped on the tracker while Dean retrieved the .458 Lott and shot the leopard off the tracker.

So the answer is - the trackers seem to back up the PH with a knife, club or flesh.

I have not had to run. But I have had to move out of the way. I bet other hunters and PH's have done this too.

Its not a brave factor or a super-machismo thing. If an ele come hauling at the hunting car you might want to leave rather than try to get the rifle and have to explain your actions later. Oh and not to mention having the car or truck mashed with your wife and driver in it. You might also want to find a nearby tree to stand behind, or in, while 40-50 or more buffalo are running by in confusion and stampeding in the the wrong direction, just where you just happen to be. You better have a lot of cash and a lot of cartridges both on you on that trip if you are going to stand tall.

In Alaska some years ago I saw a couple of world class bears while we were fishing. The guide and I looked carefully at them, at each other, and at the rifle leaning on a tree. While we did not run we did move carefully out of the way.

On one occassion we had to almost entirely shut down a complete oil and gas drilling operation in Africa. Someone reported they had seen a mamba on the pallet and it had got onboard. With about 200 tough guys on board, and more on the beach and boats, I assure you that EVERYBODY was running everytime someone "saw" the mamba! I dont think anyone slept for 2 weeks.

I mentioned to a PH a year or so ago that if I had my wife and kids with us, and saw a mamba, we would not be having a good time and that they might be running for the truck. He said that "he" would not be having a good time either and that he too would be running for the truck !

Of five buffalo my wife or I have killed we have had no charges. We have tried to take reasonable shots and do so accurately. She shot one at dusk and we followed up in the morning as the foilage was so thick there was no backlighting to detect any movement. I asked the PH to defend her to the best of his ability, but we did the follow-up in unison. No way could I desert this young man if things went south. Fortunately, the buffalo had expired from the .375 bullet. These are our rules. Defend the wife, stand and fight, leave no one behind. Every dangerous game hunter should make this commitment to himself or stay home. Then, pray you never have to see if you can live up to it. Later that year our PH was badly injured on another buffalo follow-up.

A lot of wisdom and common sense recited by preceding posters. We can never learn these lessons too well. Thanks for sharing.

At my age and with my limited running ability, facing the danger might make the most sense. Sense does not always prevail.
I have not yet been so tested, and if I am I just hope the retrospect-o-scope shows I did the right thing.

Haven't been around for awhile, so missed the other threads referred to.

I've done some running/hasty tactical or strategic retreats at the command of the PH and done as a whole group. But never in the plain sight of the eles. A really good description was given by 465H&H - you move out smartly when the cow or cows, matriarch in particular, are looking for you NOT after they have found you!

In the thick stuff a short, smart retreat will leave plenty of brush between you and the eles, often with a bend or two on your line of retreat. Even if the eles decide to track you by scent, and this has happened twice to me, you will have made enough room to make an informed, rational decision to stand and face the eles on ground you choose or to keep departing the area.

I have to say that I was suprised by the smart retreats at first, since everything I had read prior to my first hunt had repeated the refrain that there is no running from eles. And the common sense notion that if you can't outrun it your better off standing your ground makes sense until you find yourself in the situation where the eles are going to look for you but haven't found you yet.

As a team we've done plenty of slow retreats in the face of demonstrating or itchy eles, especially cows. Walking backwards or half turned and always ready to shoot if required.

As far as clients breaking and running, apparently it happens frequently. Must make for a really awkward ride back to camp, eh? If everyone makes it. Beyond awful if not.

I've seen trackers bolt, though most stand with their PH. I've seen game scouts as brave as anyone could ask but I've seen plenty bolt too, and unlike trackers, they have weapons.

As far as backing up the PH, or vice versa, its a team sport. Not many of us could successfully hunt elephants without a PH or trackers, we need them as an integral part of our team. Hell, they could successfully hunt elephants without us along, but for the costs. Its only good and right to do so when we can contribute more than merely money to the team's efforts.

For all the brave talk about standing your ground, I'm not sure a fellow knows if he's up to it until he is required to. I doubt breaking is a conscious decision. I know that standing your ground during a quick, close charge is not.

The team sport thing is one reason why I think it is pretty ridiculous for a hunter, especially a green African hunter, to insist that a PH never shoot his buff, ele or other dangerous game. On the other hand, I expect the PH to do it when it is required, in his experienced, proffessional opinion, not when its fun for him or just an opportunity to shoot his rifle.

FWIW,

JPK

A masterful tale of the "running client" and his redemption!

If you haven't read it, pour a toddy, get comfortable, turn off the phone and have a great read. It isn't long, but is, of course, some of Hemingway at his best!

Depending upon the circumstances the wisest course of action may be to run, beat a hasty retreat, sneak out slowly or stand and fight. You can only chose the right one after a lot of DG experience. You need to be able to read DG behavior to do that. Very few of us have that amount of experience. That is why we have a PH along. Supposedly he does know. But don't count on it. As JPK said above, "The team sport thing is one reason why I think it is pretty ridiculous for a hunter, especially a green African hunter, to insist that a PH never shoot his buff, ele or other dangerous game. On the other hand, I expect the PH to do it when it is required, in his experienced, proffessional opinion, not when its fun for him or just an opportunity to shoot his rifle."

465H&H

Thanks to an auto accident 30 plus years ago I can't run or even walk fast. The PH I have hunted DG with knows this and I have told him if he thinks he needs to shoot go right ahead. We have had a few interesting times but so far so good.

BigB

And then there's this hunting guide in Namibia that hauled ass on his first leopard charge, leaving the client to sort it out. Of course, if you speak to him, he will tell you the client bailed, and also how big a Recce he was! (His trackers and the client saw it otherwise though!)

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
And then there's this hunting guide in Namibia that hauled ass on his first leopard charge, leaving the client to sort it out. Of course, if you speak to him, he will tell you the client bailed, and also how big a Recce he was! (His trackers and the client saw it otherwise though!)

I will assume that he is NOT a "Professional Hunter!"

The leopard or lion thing could get a bit sweaty. Those lioness always look like they are ready to pounce - and thats when you see them. Give them a lot of room as it usually several of them !

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Thanks to an auto accident 30 plus years ago I can't run or even walk fast. The PH I have hunted DG with knows this and I have told him if he thinks he needs to shoot go right ahead. We have had a few interesting times but so far so good.

BigB

I'm in the same situation, after 7 knee operations I have very limited abilities now and I've told that to all the PHs that I've contacted for next year's Buff hunt. I simply look at it as, if the shit hits the fan we'd better both be on the same page.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
There is one example in particular that stands out to me. Last year there was a Tracks Across Africa episode where two Canadian clients, male and female, were hunting in Zim. I cannot recall the PH. It was very thick and very green -- must have been an early season hunt. At one point in the hunt, they come across an ele cow in the brush 20 or 25 yards in front of them. They freeze and the cow is staring them down for some time. If I recall correctly, the PH throws a rock or something to try and get the cow to break off so they can move. As soon as he throws the rock, the cow charges. The PH stands his ground and the client looks like the fellow depicted in the song The Streak by Ray Stevens -- he is out of there like a bolt. The PH has a double and puts the cow down on the second shot. If that shot had not done the trick the PH was toe jam. Irony is that later in the hunt the client shot a damn fine bull elephant (on a long open shot). Maybe others recall the episode. I remember calling my wife, come look at this guy crack and run, amazing.

The best part of that was the OS! look on his face. Where did he think he was going? That blew my mind.

"Sadly, we keep hearing of more charges lately than we did before". I think this is simply because of the fact there are sooooo many Mark Sullivan post on here lately!!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Sadly, we keep hearing of more charges lately than we did before.

This could be due to the fact that there are a lot more people going to hunt in Africa than before.

It could also be due to carelessness, due to both the PH and and the client.

Oner hears stories of clients wounding an animal, turn around to the PH and say ÿou can go after it now" and head back to the truck.

Some clients, according to some PH, are best left behind if there is any chance of a charge.

I know some Ph who actually have asked the client to stay behind when the likelyhood of getting into a stickly situation arises.

Some PH give the client the choice of going after the wounded animal, or leaving the PH to go after it alone.

I suppose when we have so many PHs and so many clients out in the field, one tends to get quite a few who really have no business being there in the first place.

If it is really coming your best chance of surviving is to kill the animal. You'd probably have to be quite a salty dude to make a CNS shot whilst running away so standing your ground gives you the most decent odds.

Like most here I would hope the PH would use his experience of body language, wind, terrain etc., to avoid charges but if you're faced with one you're going to have to deal with it. If you feel no inherent moral responsibility to defend the unarmed members of your party then you're a POS in my book.

Lions frighten the ever-living bejaisus out of me and I always thought I would not be able to face a charge. When it came to it, instinct took over and I stood ready. Had I run there's little doubt I would have died.

I was watching one of the outdoor channels at a friends hose a few week ago and one of those personality you always see and hear people talk about almost shoved a small tree up his own arse running backwards to get away from a charging buffalo. a few seconds after the Ph had the buff down the showman was all smiles standing over his buffalo NO mention of his rearward advance NO pun intended

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On the other hand, I expect the PH to do it when it is required, in his experienced, proffessional opinion, not when its fun for him or just an opportunity to shoot his rifle.

I agree totally with JPK here. It is the "profession opinion" I worry about in some cases.

quote:

Depending upon the circumstances the wisest course of action may be to run, beat a hasty retreat, sneak out slowly or stand and fight.