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Got update from a ph friend of mine at the shows.... Apparently a Zim PH walked up to OOA booth in Dallas and commented out aloud; "So you are the guys who are poaching in Zim" within a couple of hours a police officer and a DSC official walked up to him and was asked if he could prove what he said and generally hassled him and warned him...... Just shows how deeply connected they are at all levels and in all countries..... "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | ||
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Anybody know who the PH as the made the statement, I'll buy him a beer. Billy, High in the shoulder (we band of bubbas) | |||
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Money talks at these conventions. OoA pays for the booth, and donates hunts. I don't know why the cop was there, unless it was to eject 'a disorderly person'. George  | |||
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George, Maybe slander per se, publicly accusing someone of a crime? Of course, if the statement is true, then that is a defense. Can't be slandered by the truth. Regards, Terry  Msasi haogopi mwiba [A hunter is not afraid of thorns] | |||
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quote: Well, slander is not a criminal offense or a criminal matter; it's a civil matter. Of course, I'm sure the police officer was there just in case the PH in question became disorderly. I'm sure he wasn't there to intimidate anyone.  -Bob F. | |||
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Well, my view of DSC just went down a notch. I heard that someone who shall remane nameless called OOA for a discussion of this issue. They said they couldnt talk just then and would call back. A short while later their lawyer called with all kinds of threats of legal action if anything negative was said. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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quote: Sounds like my experience in Zim. The Warvets also turned up with armed police in tow, just in case we who were being "warned off" (ie illegally ejected) caused a problem. Maybe OOA has learned something from Zim after all. Or is it the DSC in this case ???? | |||
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PH was Piet Barnard, Bvukenya Safaris | |||
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A friend of mine bought their Sat. Night Item at SCI in 2003. He spent more than $50,000. on the hunt, not counting travel, and has never seen one of his animals. They will not even return his calls anymore. SCI's response is it is between the donor and the buyer to straighten out. SCI is auctioning the same hunt again this year so some other poor slob can loose his money. All any of these groups want is money. | |||
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Lucky your friend did not get his trophies - that would be an offence under the Lacy act! US Fish & Wildlife have been informed that OoA have no reserve Bank Authority to donate hunts and so all their "donated Hunts" are illegal under Zimbabwe law - which means under US law. This goes back to 2001. If you want to check that OoA have no Authority to donate a hunt at the auction this year, try contacting the reserve Bank of Zimbabwe, (Hunting and Tourism section). Ken Ngwarayi is the new boss there (ex parks) but Mrs Musonza was the official who travelled to the USA last year and met your F&W officials Phone 263-4-703-062 | |||
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Gee,I have never arrested any one for slander,,is that like being stupid in public  Stay Alert,Stay Alive Niet geschoten is altijd mis Hate of America is the defeat position of failed individuals and the failing state | |||
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"... A friend of mine bought their Sat. Night Item at SCI in 2003. He spent more than $50,000. on the hunt, not counting travel, and has never seen one of his animals. They will not even return his calls anymore. SCI's response is it is between the donor and the buyer to straighten out..." What an absolutely disgusting attitude from SCI! | |||
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quote: I arrested a guy when he called me a MFer. I figure any one who calls someone a MFer who has a gun in his hand is either drunk (drunk in public is an offense) or is crazy and needs to be taken into custody.  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Please enlighten a dummy, what is OOA.  Good shooting.phurley | |||
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"Out of Africa" safari company. They have be questioned about shady dealings in Zimbabwe And your not a dummie! There's things on here that alot of members don't know about, at least you ask! "America's Meat - - - SPAM" As always, Good Hunting!!! Widowmaker416 | |||
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I have a short comment to make, not in respect of OOA but is respect of getting caught short. You can legislate as much as you like to try to prevent fraud or being conned BUT you cant legislate against FOOLS ... as the old saying goes (there is one born every day) whom will not take advice and will not listen to common sense ... No matter how many times and how many people tell someone to be wary there are those whom will step blindly into the fray and do their own thing regardless, good luck to them and dont say we have not warned you, and more important good hunting Peter | |||
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quote: He has already been contacted and is supposed to 'keep himself available' to fly to LA to testify in front of a Grand Jury. | |||
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The business relationship between OOA and SCI/ DSC always causes much debate on here with many folks being openly critical of SCI/DSC for having any dealings with OOA. I believe various members have raised the matter with the organisations themselves and even an official Zim investigation has failed to do anything. My question is, has anybody actually quit either sthe SCI or DSC over the issue? People profess to feel really strongly about this, but do the feel strongly enough to take personal action? Regards, Pete | |||
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 As always, people talking about things they have no way of knowing what actually took place there!  Right away someone jumps to the conclusion that the police were called in this matter, and as much, state it as if it were fact, when, in fact, it is not! All security at DSC (which has no affiliation with SCI, by the way) are off duty Dallas Police. It stands to reason when any type conflict starts, order is restored by "SECURITY. In this case a DSC official, and a POLICE officer working security! Further, I have no idea whether OOA donated a hunt to DSC, or not, but it has little to do with this action. In fact, someone posted a link to a message, in the last three or four days, saying OOA had been exonerated of all charges. How come everybody here didn't jump to the conclusion that they were innocent, like they did here that they are guilty? All the statements made here, are hearsay, and I'll ask you, if your club was holding a show, and a fight started would you simply let it progress till someone got hurt, or would you stop it. That is all DSC did! If the person making the accusations was a PH, then he had a booth there as well, and as far as I know neither of the parties was asked to leave, just to take their grievances out of the DSC show. Gentlemen I am not a member of DSC, but I haven't missed a show since 1982, and I have never seen anything go on there that wasn't fun, or expensive,or both, neither of which is against the law, as far as I know. The reason DSC is not still affiliated with SCI,of which I am a long time member , is because of SCI's lack of supervision over thier donated hunts! I think it would be a mistake to bad mouth DSC the way I see here, without knowing the facts. This type of BACK FENCE GOSSIP, is not becoming of the class of people I have come to associate with DSC and African hunting .  I personally think every one of you owe DSC an apology, till you can come up with some FACTS that can be substanciated.  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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quote: I guess there are jerks in every line of work. | |||
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So can I expect to see Out of Africa Safaris selling hunts in Zim for which they are not licensed at Reno SCI? And do hunts conducted without license constitute poaching? | |||
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I've got no association with OoA nor an axe to grind with them one way or the other. I'm not sure what to make of all this OoA business. I wonder how much of it is rumor and spin. I wasn't there at Dallas; might have been somebody with too much firewater causing a scene and was asked to cease and desist. Chances are the truth lie about in the middle of the two stories. As for all the Zim business we've been hearing for so long, it's been going on for over a year and nothing comes of it. Lots of woofing, no action. Lots of people claiming this or that. OoA does not have that much juice to buy off all SCI-dom and the USF&W....could it be that these rumors of wrongdoing are mostly unsubstantiated? We hear rumors and second hand stories, often the same ones over and over again. Sure do hope either something definitive happens soon or else some people need to find another dog to kick. | |||
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quote: And Al Capone wasn't a gangster because he was never convicted. Right? | |||
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Actually Dan, I think he was convicted twice. Once of a Concealed Weapons charge in Philadelphia (I believe),that locked him up for a year. And then the Income Tax charge that landed him in the Federal Penitentary system and pretty much put him out of business as a gangster. Since A-R doesn't have an Investigations Division, here's the appropriate outfit for you with good information/tips on this subject to contact.... U.S.F&W Office of Law Enforcement: PX# (+) 703 358 1949 Fax: 703 358 2271 website: www.le.fws.gov/hq.htm Or perhaps you need to contact the IRS Criminal Investigations Division at 1-800-829 0433 International callers may dial (code+) 215 516 2000 I'm weary of good outfits like DSC and other good SCI chapters taking a kicking on this. If OoA are as dirty as many of you claim to know they are, then make your real world case. Otherwise, time to leave it alone. | |||
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To put all this in perspective. I remember reading on this forum detailed transcripts of illegal activity going on in Zimbabwe. To the extent of recording vehicle licence numbers and of course names of the companies and PHs. These people were operating on illegally occupied private land. This transcript alledged the OOA fellows were witnessed on these properties with South African clients. Now as for "firewater" if I was a PH who had lost his concession or his private land and had the poachers named who were slaughtering my game and destroying my stolen future for a quick profit, I would have more than a "axe to grind". I would be looking to plant it into someones head. *** quote: If SCI and DSC are allowing these hunts to be auctioned with their permission at their convention, wouldn't that make them liable and also by complicit extention parties and accomplices to the illegal transaction? Just a question and my opinion. | |||
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One can only hope the Feds will start prosecuting "the clients" of all outfitters involved with illegal hunting in Zimbabwe with the Lacy Act. I wonder how these hunts sell after a few good old boy's spend twenty to fifty thousand dollars and a year or two in a ferderal pen! Robert Johnson | |||
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I am going to line up with my Internet friend Matt Norman on this one. As an SCI Board member I have posted here several times over the last year that I would take any cognizant government judgements forward in SCI for action. Ganyana has provided information, but even his government won't or can't furnish definitive documentation that I could use. Apparently the rule of law has vanished in Zim. If the US government can assist here, we would all be happy I believe to see any bad actors carted off to jail. Unsubstantiated allegations on AR do not a criminal case make. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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Who was there that actual saw the whole incident from start to finish? Did an offical from DSC and an off duty police officer visit the PH in question, in another area, well after he walked into OOA's booth? Did they tell him he would be banned from DSC in the future? Did DSC tell the same thing to OOA or did they act at the request of OOA? How did this escalate into a "fight" and who threatened who? OOA has not been cleared of anything. The letter from Zimbabwe confirms facts that show OOA has operated against US rules. OOA and others like them have been documented as dealing with A2 farmers and those on the banned list. They along with any one else that supports these people, owe apologies to the hard working people that have had their livelihood's stolen from them. Ask Roy Bennett how he feels about people like this. If responsible hunters would stop dealing with these outfits maybe it would be a step in the right direction. | |||
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quote: I agree that proving something in court is far different from knowing something is wrong. Matt is a good friend of mine but we have different views of this. I dont need to prove something to the letter of the law to know something isnt quite right. However on the other hand I agree that it is time to put up or shut up. I have had no new information that can be used so as such will keep quiet for now. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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quote: As I passed the OOA booth three different times on Saturday the only person I saw talking to them was an adjacent exhibitor. I am sure hunters did talk to them that I didnt see but it seemed they were far less busy than other exhibitors. Maybe the word is getting out. ALLEN W. JOHNSON - DRSS Into my heart on air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. A. E. Housman | |||
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Matt and Mac, quote: It was further explained that the "official" who wrote that letter was a local "chief" in charge of an area they operated in. Such a letter from such an individual would cost probably around $300 - $500 to get or absolutely free if the "official" is already receiving "kick-backs" for allowing them to operate there in the first place. quote: The following did occur: 1- Piet Barnard (PH for BVKenya) walked up to OoA booth and made that comment 2- A DSC official accompanied by an officer in a Dallas Police uniform (at least the badge he was wearing said so!) tracked him down within a couple of hours and asked him if he had made those allegations and whether he could prove them? I guess only a recorded sworn statement of the above by at least half a dozen witnesses would convince you of this. quote: Why don't you both try to call this number and ask a few questions? quote: It can take years to conclude an investigation and collect evidence that can be presented in court. That doesn't mean OoA are innocent in my book? When so many different people, authorities, organisations are pointing a finger there is probably good reason. Or maybe you think they are just trying to wipe out one of their competitors  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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quote: SCI continues to keep its head in the sand on this one. If an exhibitor at the SCI convention were selling cocaine at his booth, would you permit him to continue to do so because there was no conviction yet? SCI needs to show some leadership on this one. Otherwise SCI will have no credability in its lobbying efforts because it has been knowingly assisting poachers in selling poached hunts, and SCI directly benefits from those sales. It is time for SCI to show some leadership and stand up for what is ethically right. Jim, if you think SCI is in the right on this one, why not put your money where your mouth is and book a lion hunt with OOA safaris in ZIM. Then report back about the land where the hunt takes place, whether ZIM law was respected, whether you received your trophis, and whether USF&W thinks the hunt is clear of Lacey Act criminal violations. | |||
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Jeez, Dan, why don't you climb down off your high horse? My point is rumor, innuendo and unproven allegations are not something SCI can act with. Why don't you do the hunt, gather real evidence and prove to SCI what you allege is true. Internet talk is really cheap. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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quote: Bwanamich I don't need a sworn testamony from anyone, I was there! You need to read my post again, because I did not say this did not happen, furthermore, I did not deny the OOA is most likely guilty of everything they have been accused of, but that hasn't been proven. No place in my post will you find anything opposed to the above opinion. All I said is, in relation to accuseing DSC of somehow being involved in illegal actions any place. If you will go back to my post you will see I SAID the matter was stopped by a DSC official, and SECURITY. The reason the Officer was in a Dallas police usniform is because all security is by off duty Dallas Police officers, who wear their uniforms. None of this is in opposition to what you just wrote. The origenal poster intemated that the DALLAS POLICE WERE CALLED IN THIS MATTER, and that is not the case. I was in Dallas when this happened, as were several others who post here, and these two parties were simply told if they couldn't prove the alagations to take it out DSC show. If DSC had not stopped this, and it got out of hand, and someone had gotten hurt, DSC would be liable. They stopped it, and that is exactly what they should have done. There were three or four hundred PHs, and outfitters at that show, and not one out of ten of them would act the way both sides of this problem did, and they were asked to cease, and disist! I personally would have thrown both parties out of the show imediatly, but they didn't ask me! All I'm saying is OOA's problems have nothing to do with DSC, and the clash was stopped by DSC, and a security officer, and security in this case is DALLAS POLICE! I fail to see how this vilifys DSC, they were simply aborting what could have gotten real nasty! IMO, anyone who has a problem with the PH, or OOA, they should take it up with those two, and leave DSC out of it! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, I think the problem is as follows: 1. The PH in question did not engage in any criminal conduct. Yet a uniformed policeman attempted to intimidate him. No person needs to be able to "prove" his statement in order to be free from police harassement, except in this instance. Which of course makes it look like the DSC is using police intimidate to muzzle legitimate complaints about OOA's behavior. 2. DSC should not permit illegal hunts to be sold at their show. If someone makes an allegation of an illegal hunt being sold, or other illegal activity taking place, DSC should investigate and close down the sale of any hunts which could place the show attendees in jeopardy with the law. To do otherwise makes it appear that DSC advocates and protects the sale of illegal hunts, regardless of whether that appearance is substantively accurate or not. The whole safari industry will be more healthy if the various shows will refuse to provide a sales outlet for illegal hunts. Until then, the accusations will continue to be made and people will be at each other's throats. | |||
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HunterJim, As a director of SCI, did you call the phone number provided by Ganyana to inquire about the allegations of illegal hunts being sold and conducted by one of your exhibitors? ______ Matt Norman, Al Capone was never convicted of being a gangster/murderer/loan shark/bookie/bootlegger/etc. Does that mean he was not one? | |||
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I find it pretty humrous though that during the DSC show the Fish & Wildlife guys were going around and making some of the jewlery exhibitors cut up the elephant hair bracelets that they were selling, as they said it was illegal. But then they let illegal hunts to be sold and by the sounds of it protect the ones who were doing shady business | |||
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I am not sure how DSC runs their show but SCI is a private show. You must be a member to attend. That gives SCI the ability to toss anyone they choose to for any reason. You do not have freedom of speech at a private gathering. I would guess DSC has similar rules that they can enforce if they wish to keep the peace for the attendees. | |||
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Why doesn't someone ask Out of Africa to come here and provide some answers directly? If they are in the clear and operating completely legitimately I am sure after a bit of tussle all this talk will go away. I am sure also they are aware of the talk on AR and at one time we had someone post something. The outfitters and agents that stand up for themselves or admit innocent mistakes usually get respect after a while. Does OOA have a website or contact address/email anywhere? | |||
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Dan, What happened to your sense of humor...did you know the fourth ammendment can be relaxed...I mean afterall lawyers relax their ethics all the time by saying...please don't tell me things I don't want to know...  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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