Or is it shooting
Just a question from another thread in Aus + NZ forums being applied here.... (HUNTING OR SHOOTING)

Is it kosher to head shoot elephants at extended distances (up to say 600 yards) using say a .50 cal bmg loaded with hunting ammo?

The q`s arises as there are many that advocate 600 yard plus shooting of deer so why not elephants?
Me? i say naye to the long range shooting of game.....

I'd say no.

I'm very glad that the one elephant I have shot was at only about 10 meters. That was part of the experiance that made it special IMO.

On my hunt the PH would not let me shoot at 30 yards...we cut that distance in half before my shot was fired. I guess that is the fun of hunting Jumbo...you get very close to a very big animal!

It is not Dangerous Game if you cannot "see the whites of their eyes".

You got to be up close, otherwise it is shooting

One of the big thrills of elephant hunting is getting within 10 yds. of a dangerous animal that is as big as a small garage. Long range sniping? No way for me!

465H&H

Elephants a hundred yards away hardly get my heart thumping. At twenty I am pretty sure they can hear it though.

JPK

If they are looking for a rush let them take the BMG and sneak up to a bull at 30 feet and let him have it.. Very upclose and personal...

Mike

Goin on my first ele hunt this year and there is no way I am shooting further then 20 yards if it can be helped at all. How dangerous is an elephant at 600 yards? kind of loses its appeal to me at least.

Bulldog...there is nothing like getting up close to an elephant...I was as close as 20 feet and shot my bull at 30feet..

Mike

Sniping is not hunting.

I've heard a PH state that he has had clients miss an entire elephant at 20 yards...just the thought of being that close or closer to such a huge animal gets my adrenaline going. This oughta be an interesting thread!

They are intimidating at close range...In the green jess..In bright sunlight and shadows they are invisible..You smell them or hear the gutteral sounds they make and snapping branches...They are standing still and your Ph says, he is out in front of us..You can't see him as big as a mountain...but invisible till he moves...Once you've seen them up close you will love the rush...You wonder if your gun is big enough...will it fire....is the gun loaded...

Mike

This is an abomination to the idea of SPORT HUNTING!

My bud RETREEVER did it like a man.

And in JULY he'll do it again with a DOUBLE SxS 450 #2.

GO TO IT MIKE!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:


Is it kosher to head shoot elephants at extended distances (up to say 600 yards) using say a .50 cal bmg loaded with hunting ammo?

If you want to shoot dangerous game at such ranges, then Iraq and Afghanistan are the place to be.

As has been said several times above, to maintain the sporting spirit and excitement of the hunt, elephant are shot at distances of about 20 yards or less.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:


Is it kosher to head shoot elephants at extended distances (up to say 600 yards) using say a .50 cal bmg loaded with hunting ammo?

If you want to shoot dangerous game at such ranges, then Iraq and Afghanistan are the place to be.

As has been said several times above, to maintain the sporting spirit and excitement of the hunt, elephant are shot at distances of about 20 yards or less.

Indeed, I think that most people would agree.
Gryph started this thread, I feel, to see what the reaction might be.
Some of the arguments on the other (long rage hunting/shooting threads) are quite interesting.
It seems that some would prefer to show off their prowess at shooting tiny groups on critters at long distance, instead of paper.
I cannot help but feel that the true measure of a HUNTER, is not how far he can shoot, but how close he can get.
500gr is correct, if you wish to hunt the ultimate Dangerous Game, at long distance, enlist, go do the snipers course at Singleton or Quantico, and then get deployed to a combat zone.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

Good idea to post this here Gryph.

Probably academic. No "professional" PH would allow such an extreme range shot or should.

Why?

Because a wounded elephant is a dangerous animal and if it escapes may end up killing people. And that blood is "on the hands" of the 'sniper'.

Why anyone wants to shoot at such extreme ranges elludes me. Hunting is meant to be fun. Shooting at targets at long ranges proves prowess as a shooter but not skills of being a hunter.

Haven't hunted elephant. But my one and only cape buffalo. I could have shot a better specimen at about 160 metres but decided it was too far (for my first beast anyway). Many would have taken the shot as it isn't a long way, but I wanted to be 100% sure of a good killing shot. The day before we were less than 20 metres away from five dugaboys on the other side of the bush. Which was more exciting? Guess.

(edited to add: a few days later I did take a nice old full hard bossed bull with shortish horns but still a trophy for me. I guess at about 80 metres. )

I don't agree with the notion of shooting deer at 600 yds, so i certainly don't agree with it on DG of any sort.

It's not hunting it's shooting. If you want to hunt an animal, you should get at least within hearing distance of the beast. For Dangerous Game even closer say within scent range, (yours not his). jj

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:



Haven't hunted elephant. But my one and only cape buffalo. I could have shot a better specimen at about 160 metres but decided it was too far (for my first beast anyway). Many would have taken the shot as it isn't a long way, but I wanted to be 100% sure of a good killing shot. The day before we were less than 20 metres away from five dugaboys on the other side of the bush. Which was more exciting? Guess.

You are right in the groove NitroX.

I reckoned that posting on here might elicit the CORRECT type of answer and just about all so far have the right idea about it all it seems,not like some of those damn Aussies answers on the other thread about it all..
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621043/m/224102204

Ditto to all of the above.

Someone on AR has a signature saying that says - The true measure of a hunter’s skill is not the size of the trophy but rather the length of the shot with the greater measure of skill being the shorter shot---Jeff Cooper

.....I think that is so correct and a great answer to the long range shooting fraternity.

thats exactly what i posted on the above linkBB

Doesn't the shooter pay the trophy fee regardless of the recovery? If so why would you want to spend a huge chunk of money on an iffy shot. John

Amen

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Sniping is not hunting.

I think it is irresponsible and unethical to even try that shot with any big game animal. Trying that shot on something as noble and great as an Elephant makes me feel sick.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:



I cannot help but feel that the true measure of a HUNTER, is not how far he can shoot, but how close he can get.

Cheers, Dave.

One of the bigger truths, Well said

600 yards is obviously too iffy, at least for me if I ever go elephant hunting. But...

What's wrong with shooting an elephant in the chest at 100 to 200 yards? I shot an elk (obviously a lot smaller) at 50 yards and the shot itself was duck soup. I would think an elephant at 200 yards with a scope sighted accurate rifle would be about the same.

Aside from tradition, or maybe the elephant is hidden in brush, or maybe the old rifles were not accurate, or the shooter flinched a lot, what's the reason for the 15 yard shot anyway? We don't require stalking that close for elk or bear, so why elephant?

There is no point to shooting an elephant that is not very close. The whole point of the hunt is to get close, and then closer. The shot is almost anticlimatic if done right. Its getting close and manuevering for a shot, preferably a brain shot, IMO, that makes the hunt pulse pounding. If you don't feel some aprehension then you just aren't close enough.

At 100 or 150 or 200 yards, there is no risk, no danger in getting set up for the shot and no risk, no danger in muffing a shot either. There is just no test except for your shooting ability; and they make paper targets for that.

For me its the same with cape buffalo. I'd just as soon shoot a heifer in a pasture at 150 yds as a cape buffalo. Same skill level, same risk, same thrill, less money and time, better eats.

The real trophy you take with you after an elephant hunt is in you mind. And to earn that trophy you need to be close.

JPK

I'm not a fan of extended ranges for any big game animal. Indy, to hunt DG beyond 75yds ceases to be hunting DG. Might as well drive up in the baake & let loose.

Indy, shooting an ele in the chest at 1ooyds or longer as bad as missing a brain..You have to go thru the trunk of muscle...


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Sniping is not hunting.

Sniping is hunting. It is hunting the most Dangerous Game on Earth.
Shooting animals at long distance is not sniping, it's just shooting. Sniper is a job description, not a hobby.

Cheers, Dave.

Not having shot an elephant but having been close to a fair number in the wild, wouldn't the need to get close have something to do with the size of the animal and the exact and acute angles required at different ranges?

Other than the fun factor of stalking close to a huge animal of course.

Nitrox,

I never considered a shot at any kind of long range but it seems to me that if you found an elephant in some relatively open country - and we saw plenty - the heart is so big that a shot at say 100 yards with a 375H&H or 416 Rem/Rigby or 458 Lott, especially one with a scope, would be ridiculously easy.

If you've got the wind right, the elephant would have no idea you're there, no matter how open the country, and you could have plenty of time to find a rest and pick your shot. No jitters either because DG isn't dangerous at that range.

The angles, relative height of the elephant, range...come in to play with brain shots. And the angles become more accute the closer you are.

Anyway, thats my take based on my limited experience.

JPK

JPK - thanks for the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Sniping is not hunting.

Sniping is hunting. It is hunting the most Dangerous Game on Earth.
Shooting animals at long distance is not sniping, it's just shooting. Sniper is a job description, not a hobby.

Cheers, Dave.

Sorry.

What I meant to say was:

"Hunting is not sniping."

you guys with your "500wackblaster" at 20 yds make me laugh talking DG. You really want DG sneak in to <20 yds, then lace his ribs with an arrow! (but beware as some machoman with his "DBL Wackblaster" may be sniping away at him too from 30 yds)

I have neither hunted ele yet nor have any familiarity with the ballistics of the .50 BMG.

My take on the hunting range aspect falls in line with every one elses.

My question is, does anyone know at about what range would a .50 BMG start losing enough energy to penetrate & cleanly kill an ele? Quite a bit of difference between having enough energy left in a bullet to kill an elk & penetrating an ele. Somewhere along the line it isn't the "sporting aspect" anymore, but the capability of the equipment. Imagine the conversation with the PH after some one has dropped a couple of ineffective hits... located somewhere in an elephant several hunderd yards away and it is time to go into the ruff stuff and sort him out!

I am looking at this scenario from a more humorous standpoint, because I see it as so ridiculous that it isn't worth really generating a lot of ire over.

Mike

Cats,

Go do it then come back and tell us how great it was. In the meantime, since you're only fantacezing, leave it to the adults to discuss dangerous game hunting.

JPK

I love you too
BTW I've found hunting to be about 99.9% getting ready to hunt and rehashing the hunt. The kill isn't that big of a deal for a sportsman. But if it is for you that speaks volumes.

Cats:

Somewheres I read once (and the phrase stuck in my mind, Dos Passos perhaps): "It is not all of hunting to kill".

gerry you are a wise gentleman. When I sit here in my den and recall all the years in the Alaskan bush, or look at some of my mounts such as a 70" bull moose, 10'+ brown bear, etc. I only skim over the actual killing shot be it with bullet or shaft. I am able though to recall in detail the place I took them,the weather, friends whom were at hand,campfires that never really caught well till we were ready for sleep, waking to find 3" of new snow in August had fallen on my half shelter during the night and much much more.
Like most I can recall some great shots I made but in truth the killing was never why I kept at the sport. Hell beef is one hell of alot cheaper in the long run. TLM/Cats