Folks,

I'm putting the SCI blurb about the 4457's in my new client packet. I'm recommending clients just copy off the new 2019 dated 4457 from the Customs website and use that version only. Christy who handles all the gun permit issues with Gracy Travel has talked to their people on the ground at O.R.Tembo. What is acceptable now by SAPS is a 4457 with no date or the 2019 expiration date. The forms dated 2012 are not acceptable. After reading over the SCI blurb and talking to Christy I think everyone just needs to get the 2019 version for all future international travel with guns. It will be what I personally will be using this fall for my Newfoundland trip.

Mark

What is really amazing is that the the form is a US customs form 4457 and has nothing to do with a Homeland security or SAPS, its no more than proof of ownership to get your firearm back into the US...Always has been. A bill of sale from who you purchased the firearm for is just as good...If So. Africa or Homeland Security wants a firearms permit they should come out with one, but the sad fact is So. Africa or Homeland security has no clue as to what they are doing..

The form 4457 has been accepted by So. Africa and the rest of Africa simply because it looked professional..The form is good for life by US customs.

Just one more piece of unnecessary hassle for hunters. This means every couple of years we will need to get new forms. Does South Africa know how many millions of dollars hunters bring in every year. I have always felt that South Africa was a great affordable destination, especially for the first time hunter. Namibia is sounding better and better. There are other countries, and other ways to get there. I may start recommending alternatives to my clients.

All the more reason to rent guns....

Bloody idiots all around us.

The USA idiots who put an expiration date on the form, which has nothing to do with its validity, but only applies to the edition of the form.

And the RSA idiots who don't bother to check with the USA idiots to confirm that the expiration date is totally irrelevant, and that the form is valid for the life of the holder.

And then there's the rest of us, who are left with no choice but to jump through the hoops held up by the idiots.

Great, just got one filled out a few months ago and it says 2016. Guess I'm headed back to customs and border patrol.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Bloody idiots all around us.

The USA idiots who put an expiration date on the form, which has nothing to do with its validity, but only applies to the edition of the form.

And the RSA idiots who don't bother to check with the USA idiots to confirm that the expiration date is totally irrelevant, and that the form is valid for the life of the holder.

And then there's the rest of us, who are left with no choice but to jump through the hoops held up by the idiots.

Sad, true, but hilariously spoken. Thank you for bringing laughter to the situation.

A bill of sale is just as good as the 4457 to US Customs on your re-entry...As to So. Africa, or any African country who knows, welcome to Africa so put your give-s--ter in neutral or stay home otherwise you will surly go insane!

.
Earlier today, I reviewed the CBP Form 4457's that were issued by a CBP Officer here in Houston on February 14, 2017. Both completed forms have the following info:

Upper Right Hand Corner: OMB No. 1651-0010 (without any expiration verbiage)
Lower Right Hand Corner: CBP Form 4457 (06/92)

FYI - During the last 6 years, I have obtained several completed and stamped CBP Form 4457's from the Houston CBP office. Upon inspection, none of them have expiration dates in the upper right hand corner.

also
Both the 2016 and the 2019 are still on the website to download


https://www.cbp.gov/sites/defa...BP%20Form%204457.pdf

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/defa...%20Form%204457_0.pdf

Unfortunately, most African countries have come to believe the 4457 document is a permit for the name on it to own the firearm by the USA.

The bill of sale may be all that is legally needed, but that doesn't mean the African customs will accept it and demand the 4457.

It seems the USA customs is not the only official group who are prone to go by their opinion, rather than the legal rules.

Just bite the bullet and get 4457s for all your firearms that will be taken out of the USA, and save yourself from the misconceptions of "KNOW IT ALL" Government officials!
.................................................................

I just returned from my local CBP office where I got new 4457's for five different rifles. I took a chance and went without my guns. I just took my old 4457's with me. I explained the situation in RSA to the receptionist and asked if I could get forms with a new "expiration date." She took my old forms and the new ones I had printed off the CBP website to an unseen agent and returned in a few minutes with both my new and old forms. I'm holding onto the old ones since 4 of the 5 have no expiration dates.

The CBP lady was very courteous and helpful. Lots of security in their office. I never got past a waiting room and had to speak to the nice lady through bullet proof glass.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I just returned from my local CBP office where I got new 4457's for five different rifles. I took a chance and went without my guns. I just took my old 4457's with me. I explained the situation in RSA to the receptionist and asked if I could get forms with a new "expiration date." She took my old forms and the new ones I had printed off the CBP website to an unseen agent and returned in a few minutes with both my new and old forms. I'm holding onto the old ones since 4 of the 5 have no expiration dates.

The CBP lady was very courteous and helpful. Lots of security in their office. I never got past a waiting room and had to speak to the nice lady through bullet proof glass.

The closest CBP to me is the N Ky airport. My limited experience has been they will not fill them out until you show up to depart. I have tried to show up a day before even called ahead to make arrangements only to be told we will do it when you fly.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
I just returned from my local CBP office where I got new 4457's for five different rifles. I took a chance and went without my guns. I just took my old 4457's with me. I explained the situation in RSA to the receptionist and asked if I could get forms with a new "expiration date." She took my old forms and the new ones I had printed off the CBP website to an unseen agent and returned in a few minutes with both my new and old forms. I'm holding onto the old ones since 4 of the 5 have no expiration dates.

The CBP lady was very courteous and helpful. Lots of security in their office. I never got past a waiting room and had to speak to the nice lady through bullet proof glass.

Did you happen to go to the office in Philly?

Yes - located in the Customs house. 2nd & Chestnut St.

I just got a email from SCI that South Africa will accept 4457 without expiration date if issued in 2017.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I just got a email from SCI that South Africa will accept 4457 without expiration date if issued in 2017.

This is the same info I received from a SAPS official this afternoon, they will accept a form without an expiry date only if the 4457 is dated 2017, all of mine (and yours) with no expiry date are now worthless as far as SAPS is concerned. General Bothma is back in charge of firearms and apparently going to make a few "changes".

quote:

Originally posted by Dulcinea:
The date on the form is most likely not a date that means your form is expired.
It means in government speak it probably means that particular version of the form is obsolete, and there most likely a newer version available.

You just gotta wonder how Africans can screw up anything they get near.


Dulcinea

That is exactly what customs in TPA told us, but we got new ones anyways for a trip to Canada. Just trying to avoid a argument with customs.

ALERT UPDATE: South Africa Will Accept Form 4457s Without Expiration Dates Only If They Are Issued in 2017

SCI has been informed by the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA) that the South African Police Service will accept U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Form 4457s without expiration dates only if they are issued in 2017.

Last week, we alerted you that PHASA had notified us that the South African Police Service’s Central Firearms Desk had announced that they would no longer accept United States Department of Homeland Security Certificates of Registration, commonly known as CBP Form 4457s, if the date in the top right hand corner of the form had expired.

SCI received many questions from members who are in possession of Form 4457s that have no expiration dates. SCI learned that CBP has been issuing at least two different types of Form 4457s. At local offices (e.g., in airports), CBP officials have been issuing Form 4457s without expiration dates, but the Form 4457s downloadable from the CBP website bear an expiration date in the upper right hand corner.

SCI’s Hunter Advocacy Department contacted PHASA for clarification about how South Africa would treat Form 4457s that have no expiration date. PHASA advised us that the South African Central Firearms Control Register will only accept Form 4457s without an expiration date if the form was stamped in 2017.

PHASA acknowledged that South Africa has previously accepted forms without an expiration date and stamped prior to 2017. However, PHASA’s communication with the Central Firearms Control Register confirms that, effective immediately, South Africa will no longer accept those forms.

Many SCI members have correctly notified us that CBP has allowed those traveling with firearms to use the same Form 4457 on multiple occasions. However, South Africa is not bound by U.S. practices and has the ability to apply rules and restrictions that are different than those imposed by the U.S.

The new Form 4457 can be found online here. SCI members with questions about the process for obtaining a valid Form 4457 should contact the Customs and Border Protection Information Center directly. The CBP Info Center is open Monday-Friday between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. Eastern time. You can ask your question via email or by calling (877) 227-5511. If you are outside the U.S., you must call 1 (202) 325-8000.

Those needing additional assistance may contact SCI’s Office of Hunter Advocacy at (202) 543-8733 or may email hunteradvocacy@safariclub.org.

SCI also encourages members to defer to PHASA’s recommendations and their travel protocols when hunting in South Africa. PHASA recommends hunting clients pre-apply, through a reputable, registered meet-and-greet agency, for temporary import/export of firearms and/or transit permits.

SCI recognizes that this new information from South Africa poses new obligations for hunters who wish to travel with their firearms. SCI will continue to work on this issue to independently confirm this new information from South Africa and to hopefully find ways to lessen the burden on U.S. hunters planning travel to South Africa

If you download the 4457 from the CBP website you get a form with a thin black border. The OMB form expiration date is 08/31/2019. The expiration date is printed outside the printed border of the form.

Now if one was to follow the border when cutting out the downloaded form you would wind up with a new 4457 issued in 2017 without an expiration date. Of course you still have to make a needless trip to CBP to get the forms stamped.

All this needless crap simply because the SAPS folks are to lazy to contact US Customs and get an official explanation for the form expiration date. The lack of logical thinking on part of Africans never fails to amaze me. No wonder so many African countries are going down the proverbial shit hole.

Of course this may simply be another example of African racism. Just another way to hassle visiting white hunters.

If you check through to Bulawayo and just transit OR Tambo...does this new SAPS rule influence you?

Great mine have no date. They closed the Customs office her so I have to go to Seattle. Round trip is 280 miles.

You don't need to enter RSA with your firearms if you are connecting "straight through". But the reality is the connections are such that many have to spend a night in RSA either going or coming (mostly going). As long as you are not clearing customs in RSA this mess "should" not affect you. But beware, a flight delay causing you to miss your connection and you are in a pickle ...

It really confounds me as to what this is all about. The form is a "Certificate of Registration for Personal Effects Taken Abroad", not a firearms license. Do they think that you took it abroad some years ago, and it's no longer yours but it's still in your possession? And the SA firearms act only requires you to prove that you own the firearm in question, it does not require a 4457 per se. Similarly, US customs does not require that you use the 4457 to re-enter, only proof that you bought the item in the USA or previously paid duty to bring it in. So a bill of sale, an invoice, or an insurance policy should all work for both sets of officials.

Having said that the only alternative I have tried myself is an invoice .. used that once coming back into USA from Zim, never cleared in RSA. It worked fine.

the problem exist because your dealing in the 3rd world, and African Customs Agents as a rule have less than a 3rd grade education. Fact not being derogatory..

Coming back from Tanzania, had 100 lbs of Brochures in one suitcase, cost was about $300 extra, offered to buy the agents mother some $50 worth of tea to make her life easier, Agent passed me, as I borded the flight he came running and yelling Mr. Atkinson, oh Lord! Im busted..scary...He handed me a receipt for $50 worth of tea!!

Coming back from Tanzania, had 20 or 30 Empty .470 cases in carry on brief case, made a stir in the airport and Agent asked in a very impolite way what I was doing with empty "bullets", he was incredibly concerned..Knowing that explaining handloading would probably only confuse the situation, I told him I intended to cut the heads off the case with the caliber designation on them with a hacksaw and make buttons for my Safari coat, He looked stunned and thought that was brilliant, so I graciously gave him 10 cases to dress up his Jacket and I left a happy American, and he was explaining to all his dumb help that's what everyone did with old bullets.

Coming out of a Northern African country with a PH to Tanzania, with a PH that I had just met in a bar, we were in the customs line and he asked me to be a couple of customers behind him in line?? Ok, whatever, he went thru the line acting really weird and obviously simple minded, and crippled. They ran him past custom so fast I couldn't believe it..On the plane he explained to me he was smuggleing diamonds in his pocket, and they belived that mental illness was a transferable desease and wouldn't talk or touch him, and just couldn't rush him to the plane fast enough. Said he'd been doing it for years!

That's Africa, so don't expect any reasoning as to why they do anything, it will drive you to drink, just go with the flow..

Does anyone have their crystal ball ready? I'm the one that plans trips out years in advance. The wife and I have already started planning return trip to RSA in 2020 (Wedding Anniversary). The deposit is tentatively set for the beginning of 2018. I know a ton of things can change in 3 years with the 4457 but, it's really becoming a joke.

I was just at customs office and got a new 4457 with no expiration date. The officer signed the date 3/27/17. Is this what they mean by the stamped date?