What do you concider fair business when dealing with and outfitter?

Is a deposit on the day rate only and tag fees paid after the hunt fair?

Should you have to pay for taggs fees if the PH can't put you on game?

Your thoughts.

I assume your questions are about African hunting.

Generally 40% of the daily rate is paid as a deposit. The remaining 60% is payable as early as 90 days before the hunt starts, although some companies let you pay the remaining 60% at the end. Trophy fees are due at the end of the safari, but a lot of guys pay them in advance so that they do not have to transport money. Then the safari co. refunds the trophy fees if the game is not taken.

Most safari companies have a deadline for cancelling a hunt. Before the deadline you get your 40% back, and after the deadline it is non-refundable. But in reality a lot of them will let you apply the 40% to a hunt in a future year.

Some countries require you to pay a concession fee to hunt in the area, or a license fee for particular species hunted. I understand that Ethiopia makes you pay all trophy fees in advance and that they are non-refundable. Those fees are all pure out-of-pocket expenses to the safari company whether the client sees a single head of game or not, so the expense is borne by the client.

In general these business practices work pretty well and have been the basis for many thousands of successful safaris, and happy clients. There are a handful of safari company operators who have gotten wealthy along the way, but most of them and the PH's just earn a living.

I'm looking for opinons, not facts. Possibly in your rush to pontificate, you missed that point?

I shall chime in here because you insist
There are outfitters/ PH's of all makes and ethics out there, same as clients.
SO starting from an assumed honest hunter - like meself - who is willing and does indeed pay for contracted services, and set this fact against the fact that I usually try to select and specify what I expect, meaning : I discuss with the outfitter I want to hunt this and that of this quality,would pass on animals of less than ...,I then ask : is this possible with YOU?
Based on an affirmative answer,I then might contract with that outfitter.
This goes square against all the good people claiming that REAL hunting ,fishing and wife selection is always a gamble and no results can or should be expected.
I strongly disagree, know of too many areas,outfits that simply overhunt an area,promiss the sky and deliver indeed little - after they milked the client for all fees up front.
A contracted hunt cannot promiss super trophies, yes luck has a lot to do with it,but also the PH's experience,skill ,familiarity with animals and area etc.
So to my view, the PH should deliver per contract written or oral, what he agreed to when he takes on the client.
Payment of trophy fees after the game is down or "chance to be gotten" ( not sighted at 2 miles ) is therefore a small insurance and maybe incentive to keep the outfitter honest.
Its not a perfect arrangement but probably the better one.This really comes into play in North American hunts where all fees are usually demanded up front and many,many hunts sold as hunts but really should be sold as guided hikeing or rides with a small chance to see game.

quote:

Payment of trophy fees after the game is down or "chance to be gotten" ( not sighted at 2 miles ) is therefore a small insurance and maybe incentive to keep the outfitter honest.
Its not a perfect arrangement but probably the better one.This really comes into play in North American hunts where all fees are usually demanded up front and many,many hunts sold as hunts but really should be sold as guided hikeing or rides with a small chance to see game.

EXCELLENT Point!...Thanks for your opinon!

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I'm looking for opinons, not facts. Possibly in your rush to pontificate, you missed that point?

It is both a fact and my opinion that, with an attitude like that, you're not going to get very many helpful responses.

George

George - You are probably right.

I'll try to be more understanding of unsolicited condescending ramblings in the future.

Boss Ko0ngoni!

500 Grains was kind enough to give you the facts of the way things generally work in Africa. Your responce was very rude. You owe him an apology! Consequently, you will get no responce from me.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Boss Ko0ngoni!

500 Grains was kind enough to give you the facts of the way things generally work in Africa. Your responce was very rude. You owe him an apology! Consequently, you will get no responce from me.

465H&H

I felt his responce was rather condesending actually. Which has been his tone on other threads as well, in responce to my posts.

Post a responce or not that's your business.

Boss Kongoni ---- I have an opinion and as my grandson would say "you're acting like a butt-head". Does that do it for you? It made me feel better. Have a nice day.

Boss K,

Ethiopia does not have trophy fees but rather license fees which are bought in advance just like you buying a deer license at home. Since most species are on strict quota, the licenses have to be allocated for the client when he books the safari. If the client bails out we've lost not only the date in question, but the quota that he had reserved. This is unless we are able to fill that date and license list. That's why we usually ask for and get a 50% deposit on our safaris. Most folks who hunt Ethiopia plan it 2 years in advance (or more) so here's little likelihood of a short term replacement being found. A good percentage of the species hunted have a 100% success rate. I am always quick to point out any species that doesn't have (like Abysinnian Greater Kudu) so the client understands his chances. Also, it needs to be pointed out that if either one of the game scouts (and there are 2 along..one provincial and one federal) pronounces an animal wounded and lost the license is cancelled. I think this is the norm in countries where trophy fees are paid as well.

Rich Elliott

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I felt his responce was rather condesending actually. Which has been his tone on other threads as well, in responce to my posts.

Post a responce or not that's your business.

To me all 500grains did was post facts or facts as he sees them.

I don't see any condesention at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I'm looking for opinons, not facts. Possibly in your rush to pontificate, you missed that point?

IMO the reply by 500grains was most factual, and your reply was not only rude, but unwarranted as well.

quote:

What do you concider fair business when dealing with and outfitter?

Is a deposit on the day rate only and tag fees paid after the hunt fair?

Should you have to pay for taggs fees if the PH can't put you on game?

Your thoughts.

Reading this thread it seems to me some are on a short fuse, is it the extreme heat in the USA or just impatience, I dont see why we need to be abrasive and confrontational when after all we are only trying help, sometimes we are not perfect but that is not any reason to castigate someome, or is it

Anyhow for what it worth ///

Generally speaking (which might be a problem in this thread) the booking deposit is normally paid on the (hunt price only) and well in advance ( 3mths +) @ 40 or 50% EXCLUDING the specie fees, these are paid for (at the end of the hunt) for taken or wounded and lost animals, as a lot of hunters will only provide a wish list and end up hunting some different species after arrival at the ranch or hunting area.

If you are on a fixed package hunt ( set species) then you will normally have to pay the fees as I cant see why a PH will not be able to put you on the game, that is why it is important to do your homework before booking.

If it were to happin that you did not find the game or as you say were not put on them it is then an open book for each outfitter and client to sort out amicably, it should in any event be covered in the genaral contract

To circumvent these anticipated problems it might be a lot better OR good idea to rather book a daily rate hunt and with species at standard price only as taken //

All other questions welcome

Peter

I will have to agree with the crowd on this one. 500 grains was giving some info. Hey, he doesn't agree with everything I say, but so what? They guy has experience. Don't be so sensitive Kongoni.

BK,

Except for your first post, you have been out of line in this whole thread. Take a dip in the pool and chill out.......

Kongoni; You ask for advice and shit in your breakfast plate. You are an asshole.

Boss, you should check out worldshooter.com You will fit it perfect there!

George you might as well pull the thread, nothing good is going to come of it.

Boys your're right, it's time for me to go.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I'm looking for opinons, not facts. QUOTE]

Well, you've come to the right place!




Dave
OBTW- you misspelled "opinions".

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
George you might as well pull the thread, nothing good is going to come of it.

Boys your're right, it's time for me to go.

I am afraid this thread will remain here, as an example of how should not make a fool of himself.

Anyone else ever notice 500 grs and Nitro X are always lurking in the shadows waiting to come to the aid of each other??? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

...and for someone who has never hunted in Africa, you sure are full of opinions...

quote:

Anyone else ever notice 500 grs and Nitro X are always lurking in the shadows waiting to come to the aid of each

And is there some reason they should not?

Unfortunately IMHO BK seems to have come to AR this time maybe with good intentions BUT for some reason only known to him, he then did a Jekel and Hyde and became confrontational and to a certain extent quite rude !!

The one thing this AR forum does not accept is blatantly rude and confrontational behaviour, as many of those whom have tested the waters have found out to their peril // they never win in the end due to the combined power of the good AR family of loyal clear thinking supporters

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
I'm looking for opin[i]ons, not facts.

I can't help it, but I can't get enough of that!
I might have to adopt that as my new sig line....with appropriate credit to the author, of course!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Anyone else ever notice 500 grs and Nitro X are always lurking in the shadows waiting to come to the aid of each

And is there some reason they should not?

I regard Dan as an online friend even though we had some pretty good fights a year or two or more) ago. Even though we haven't met in real life.

I am always of the opinion friends should stick up for each.

My comments earlier were not confrontational to BK, just saying I disagreed with his point of view.

It is standard operating procedure to pay a 50% deposit to secure the hunt, then the remaining amount 60 to 90 days prior to the hunt...you pay trophy fees after the hunt and only on what you have shot of course...

This is a good example -- one should be thankful for what he has. Most of the threads I've seen on here are not ramblings but based on more than a day or two of experience. I'll keep reading -- and I say to those that are rude, if you get run out you asked for it, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Ray, I don't understand why a hunter should pay the balance prior to arrival at camp weather it be in Africa or wherever. I (the client) an traveling a great distance to be met by someone I have never met face to face and hope they will be there. I do not have the experience of many here having only done 15 to 20 outfitted hunts over the years. The first time I had an outfitter tell me (after I made deposit) I would have to send hime the balance prior to the hunt I tild him I am flying with my son and daughter-in-law thousands of miles and hope he will met us, if I don't pay him he has no responsibility to hunt us. He agreeded and I have hunted more with him. Oh yea son and I flew to Texas this spring for Rio's and oh yea no one there to meet us - thank God for celular phones. Afterf about 2 hrs on the phone between home, Wy. and Tx. we were picked up at the airport. Yea I know shit happens and the appoligies were accepted.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Ray, I don't understand why a hunter should pay the balance prior to arrival at camp weather it be in Africa or wherever. I (the client) an traveling a great distance to be met by someone I have never met face to face and hope they will be there. I do not have the experience of many here having only done 15 to 20 outfitted hunts over the years. The first time I had an outfitter tell me (after I made deposit) I would have to send hime the balance prior to the hunt I tild him I am flying with my son and daughter-in-law thousands of miles and hope he will met us, if I don't pay him he has no responsibility to hunt us. He agreeded and I have hunted more with him. Oh yea son and I flew to Texas this spring for Rio's and oh yea no one there to meet us - thank God for celular phones. Afterf about 2 hrs on the phone between home, Wy. and Tx. we were picked up at the airport. Yea I know shit happens and the appoligies were accepted.

Thank You, Die Ou Jagter!

Apparently, I was wrong something good might come from this thread after all.!

This is what I was requesting from this thread, your thoughts on. how it does, should or shouldn't work. I'ver hunted in RSA, every outfiiter has thier policys on their pages, the forums are full of the FACTS, rulers & gamelaws.

I agree with Die Ou Jagter. I'd still like you hear thoughts on both sides outfitter & client.

That is, if my punishment is over.

If you want to get back into the good graces of this forum, an apology to 500 Grains would probably do that. It certainly would do it for me.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
George you might as well pull the thread, nothing good is going to come of it.

Boys your're right, it's time for me to go.

I am afraid this thread will remain here, as an example of how should not make a fool of himself.

Priceless!

George

Right we will go nice and slowly and cover the subject in a bit more depth this time //

The (first thing to remember) is that Africa comprises of more than one country and with many different rules and regulations, also the outfitter/operator costs and logitics can vary considerably from hunting within a government concession to a private owned ranch, so there is no SINGLE perfect solution to SKIN THE CAT with regards payment ...

Although I wont speak on behalf of RAY generically speaking those with a well respected name and with many years in bussines with repeat clients often have (open rules for payment) by virtue of their respect for the client and vice versa ///

WE personally had a (repeat client) very recently whom came to hunt with us in Zambia and he (paid nothing) untill the hunt was over, this is an exception not the rule

Generally speaking, most operators require a deposit of around 40-50 percent of the basic daily rate or the package price whichever option is applicable, this is paid well in advance as it becomes the (holding deposit) to secure a hunt date, as outfitters need some security as some hunters can procrastinate about a date without booking and if they then cancel out ( without a deposit) the outfitter is left (holding the baby) having possibly turned away other hunters wanting that same date. So essentially the deposit becomes the confirmation and legal obligation to hunt with a particular outfitter at a particular time.

The holding or booking deposit is often non refundible if a hunt is cancelled within a couple of months prior to the clients arrival, that is why (travel and cancellation insurance) is recommeded as circumstances can and do prevail that prevent a hunter making the planned trip. The formalae for partial refund of a deposit can vary considerably, but ESSENTIALY the onus is on the hunter more so than the operator to cover his bases and get the necessary and or deemed appropriate cancellation cover. Again, sometimes a hunter will be able to either find a replacement hunter to take over his cancelled hunt and/or even carry a deposit over to a later hunt, this depends a lot upon the outfitters circumstances at the time with regards existing or future bookings and his relationship with the outfitter

Some clients ACTUALLY PREFER to pay the (full safari amount) prior to departure from home to hunt, we have a few repeat clients whom want this option as they dont like to carry a lot of t/c or cash with them, they then only pay for any additional animals taken at the ranch following the hunt.

Some clients run out of money at the ranch and pay for the outstanding amount upon their return home, so there are many different options and unforseen circumstances when hunting, that is why I believe a documented contract is a pre requisite for any hunt so both parties have some obligation and clear undertanding

Peter

This may only hold true for Ethiopia but I rather doubt it. In order for the licenses to be issued we have to demonstrate that the foreign exchange has been made(thus the early payment) Also,in order to get the licenses and have them in hand when the client arrives we have to start the purchase procedure about 30-45 days ahead of that time. Both the Federal Gov't) by way of the Game Department) and the Province (or Provinces) where the safari is to be conducted have to be paid for the licenses
to be issued. It's a bureaucartic nightmare but we have people skilled in getting it done. I keep saying that if it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

Rich Elliott

Die Ou Jagter, Boss Kongoni,
Well I will attempt to clearify that, since you do not understand...

If you were to cancel at the last minute and leave the Safari Company stuck with your deposit, all that money would have been spent on concession fees, licenses, gun permits, Gov. fees, hotel rooms, air charters, and a host of things, the PH is stuck with other PHs sitting around for a week to 21 days with nothing to do or the safari company is stuck with airline bills and charter flights sending them home, and feeding and paying a complete staff for that length of time, and the company is not making a dime in a slot where someone else could be hunting. If it were a group hunt then the company would have as much as $25,000 or more lost in cash dividends that could not be recovered, and there are a lot of other reasons that don't come to mind off hand...If one wants to cancel 90 days prior to his hunt then that gives the PH and myself time to sell the hunt at a discounted amount or at a full amount and the hunter getting a refund or the opertunity to hunt the following year..In other words we are willing to work for the client and ourselves to a better solution....

Now that final payment is negociable and with many of our clients that we know and as many are repeat clients we would wave that rule and take a chance....

We might take a chance on whoever if I was comfortable with the client, but that is determined by me not the client, but the client has the option to book with someone else, so its up to both to agree or disagree, its business plain and simple, you come to a meeting of minds or go do business elsewhere.

However, as a matter of fact, 99.9 percent of those clients who have been with us and have hunted Africa in the past send me the remaining amount by thier own choice so that they don't have to carry those funds or checks, whatever in a foriegn country, and all they need is spending money and trophy fees in TCs, it simplifies their life, keeps them safe, and protects their money, now surely that is not a bad thing..This year as I recall all our hunters sent all the daily rate by choice not demand...

So it all boils down to the old adage, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..Hope this has been informative, if not then I don't know what to tell you...

So I don't see this as the big problem that you and BK see it...but if its a problem then like I said its negociable and arrangments could probably be made to satisfy your request...I have been known to allow folks to pay out the deposit in monthly payments and many other negociations that were out of the ordinary if the approach by them was intelligent and gentlemanly...in other words I am easy to deal with but hard to push around with demands.

I prefer to only deal with outfitters of known integrity. Then I can pay them in advance, or whatever they require, and not worry about it. I do prefer to not have to travel with a lot of cash anyway. If you are shopping for the cheapest possible hunt and don't check references or use a reputable booking agent you are likely to be disappointed sometime along the way.

Ray - Thank you for you comments. I'm our company's Operations/Sales manager I fully understand the business reasons for requesting payment up front. Your profession is unique in that regaurd. Most service busineess work on net 30, which tend to become net 90.

Contactually, the customer seems to have little recourse on prepaid hunts, if things go south.

Am I not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Kongoni:
Contactually, the customer seems to have little recourse on prepaid hunts, if things go south.

Am I not correct.

BK

You are correct, if a hunt is pre=paid then if the operator is shady then there could be a problem BUT generally speaking most if not all pre-paid hunts prior to arrival are only with clients and operators whom have either done previous bussiness together or have other good vibes going between them.

Essentially it is only (the deposit) that might be lost if there is a late cancellation, NOT the full payment made in advance, and then again, the deposit is or should be covered by the client taking out the appropriate recommended insurance cover

If you are talking per se about the hunt turning to custard at the ranch, then that is another scenario totally and YES a pre-paid hunt might/could leave one open to hassles.

Just briefly, changing the subject totally for the heck of it and to end on a lighter note ...

How about those people whom pre-pay for their own funeral, holy smoke, there aint much recource if the services arnt up to standard when they depart the world

Take care, Peter

Peter,

Now that you mnetion it, I can think of a few folks that probably had to prepay their funeral!

Our 50% deposits are placed in an interest bearing (which we get) escrow account here in the USA and aren't withdrawn until the balance of the safari and other costs are paid...app. 45 days up front. This protects both the safari company and the client should a major catatrophy (war, hunting cessitation, death, etc..) occur before the safari.

Ray is correct. Policy can be ammended up to a point for repeat clients and it works both ways. I've had one gentleman cancel twice. One time he had paid the licenses already which were non refundable and at that late point in time non transfereable. The second time he cancelled was at the time when he was supposed to pay the licenses. Again, too late to fill the spot. Would we book him again? Of course, but only with full payment up front!

Deal with an established safari company or safari booking agent with a good track record and you shouldn't have any worries.

Rich Elliott