.

I did not want to derail the tragic Greg Michelson post, so am posting this here as a new thread.

The post title is Slider's comment quoted here which made me think where does one draw the line - client and / or PH ?

Many hunters are not athletes, some are overweight, many are seniors, many have replacement knees, hips and shoulders and very few of us have multiple 'follow ups' on DG under our belts (thank God).

I for my part plan to hunt as long as I can and as long as a PH will guide me. I don't think ones age need be a criteria and as to fitness, well I guess that is the PH's call, as seems to have been the case with Greg and his clients.

I cannot comment on Greg's hunt as I read it here on AR, but I am sure that the client(s) are gutted and they have to live with it.....

It is dangerous game hunting and we should never forget that when we pull the trigger!

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To point, you are right.

Hunters SHOULD be in shape to finish their wounded animals.

But, realistically, there are many hunters who are really incapable of walking all day.

Some cannot even walk a single mile from the truck.

Some might be due to themselves letting their health go down.

But, many don’t have a choice.

I have hunted with friends who were not in the best health.

They all had great hunts.

Admittedly, it was up to me to finish their wounded animals.

I didn’t mind.

And if I wasn’t there, the professional hunter would have been happy to.

You probably refer to this particular incident because the professional hunter who unfortunately lost his life.

I can assure you many of us have been in these situations, and no one I suspect really like it, and I also suspect everyone keeps in mind that things can go bad.

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Saeed - I too have followed wounded game inc DG and was fortunate to be there to the end.

My point is that at the end of the day hunting / DG hunting is a dollars and cents business and I have yet to hear of a PH / guide saying 'Nope you are unfit to hunt, I cannot guide you'. On the contrary, I know of PHs who went the extra mile to get the wheelchair hunter, amputee, sight impaired and overweight hunter their desired trophies! And cudos to them.

I suppose it is up to each of us to know when to quit and that was a discussion that I think Ross / DogCat started a while back......

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Charlie64, I agree with you.
A "PH" (Professional Hunter) has to evaluate the abilities of his client and tailor the hunt/stalk/shot to their abilities and ensure a clean and ethical kill. That is part of the job. If the client has a medical condition and is unable to cope with the requirements of the hunt (think Lord Derby or a sheep hunt) then the PH needs to make the call. With the price of DG hunts it's unlikely that many young hunters will be able to afford them. Far more likely those with a bit of grey around the edges will be heading into the bush!
Also the very fact that a PH carries a heavy rifle on a DG hunt is indicative of the possibility that he may in fact have to use it to fix a less than ideal outcome. It's not for decoration!!!

JCHB

A general African safari, including dangerous game, isn’t that hard, most of the time.

I have been hunting for over 40 years, and all the professional hunters I have met are more than happy to accommodate any hunter with any disability.

Including those in wheelchairs.

In fact, several of the professional hunters I have met had hunted with these.

I know, we can sit here and talk about one shot kills.

And about making your first shot count.

I have been on safari with several people who are better shots than me, off the bench.

But make terrible shots on game.

I have seen hunters who have been hunting all their lives, make terrible shots.

At the end of the day, everyone involved accepts the simple fact that sometimes, thing could go wrong.

And unless in very very occasions, no one can point fingers at others.

When one hunts, and I mean on a proper hunt in the wild, not sitting in a waterhole on a farm.

One will miss.

One will wound.

One would lose wounded game sometimes.

One can get hurt.

Accept it.

Or don’t go hunting.

Last year, out of the blue, while following a bush pig, we got charged by a lion.

Luckily it was in an open area, and I was able to end it at about 20 yards.

0n other occasions, we have followed a lion I have shot just before sunset.

He ran off into the bush without me being able to fire again.

He went less than a hundred yards.

But it took us ages to find him.

He was less than 10 feet when we saw him lying in the grass.

He wasn’t dead, I hate to think what might have happened to us.

Again, if you really cannot accept the fact that things might go wrong, badly, stay home.

You are right, Saeed.

In dangerous game hunting, things can go wrong, and quickly.

Sometimes because of poor judgment or other human weaknesses, but sometimes utterly by chance.

It’s a hard fact that professional hunters and their clients are sometimes killed by dangerous animals.

Not often, but it does happen with some regularity.

As I say, it’s a hard fact.

https://www.hoferwaffen.com/ho...pid=761&cid=&lang=de

Charlie64,

The only PH I have ever heard turn down clients because of physical fitness is the legendary Kai-Uwe Denker.


Denker’s response to people who show up at his booth at a hunting convention. Mind you, Denker is there to sell hunts, so one has to wonder his motivation in the following situation: An overweight man shows up at Denker’s booth and asks the price of a hunt, whereupon Denker answers, “Do you think you are going hunting with me with that body?” This has happened on more than one occasion.

I was thinking exactly same as Charlie.
I knew also what people here will answer to it, and its logicall.
What Saeed is saying is the real thing.
One thing is what things should be, and whole different thing is how things are.
I am not in the position to judge the decissions the PH took on that hunt, neither clients decission of leaving him alone after the animal wounded by them, but something is clear to me, Dangerous Game is not just a name, is a description and it should be taken more seriously by clients. Dangerous game is not a honey moon walk.
I have been charged by a Buff already, I have lost a friend by a wounden Ele, but I still will go hunting to Africa till I consider my capabilities good enough of not putting others life at risk.
So sad the lost of this brave hunter and PH.
Maybe it will be a good lesson of what might happen if you go DG not in a good shape. I hope to be wise enough to know when to stop.
That lesson will be good to learn from this, but doesnt mean I am judging this particular and sad incident and blaming anyone

On some occasions, I was given the choice by a professional hunter to stay back, and he wanted to go after a buffalo I wounded.

I laughed and went with him.

We found it dead!

In places with bad visibility, we walk abreast.

Which means it boils down to luck which one gets charged from close quarters.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
On some occasions, I was given the choice by a professional hunter to stay back, and he wanted to go after a buffalo I wounded.

I laughed and went with him.

We found it dead!

In places with bad visibility, we walk abreast.

Which means it boils down to luck which one gets charged from close quarters.

It should be like that.
If you are doing Dangerous Hunting with a guide because is required by law (behind you need the unvaluable help of trackers and a experienced fellow hunter for backing up if required, etc).

Different thing is when you are contracting someone to actually DO the Dangerous Hunting for you. Shooting a Buff does not always mean you did DG.

Maybe this is another important difference that not many people can appreciate.

Some clients, apparently, think it is the professional hunter's job to follow wounded game and finish them off.

Heard this from a number of professional hunters.

Funny enough, most of these stories are about European clients.

One year hunting in Chete, a difficult area for unfit clients.

I was surprised at the number of buffalo left on quota - I was hunting at the end of the season.

Apparently a number of hunters were not able to shoot their quota, because of their physical condition.

Some apparently said walking "sucks"!

This was great, as I had the opportunity to hunt buffalo every day, as Zimbabwe did not have a limit on how many you can shoot on a license.

It was up to the concession holder that you shoot as many as you wish, if the quota allowed!

Charlie many elderly folk still want to hunt dangerous game and our job is to make that possible. These follow-ups are what PH's do and part of our job is to protect the client from harm. Greg was a very experienced PH but could not react fast enough at such close quarters and suspected a snapshot was all he could do. Imagine if he had two inexperienced clients with him.

Some here are very experienced hunters and I would be comfortable with them joining me in a follow-up and then such a situation may have been a lot different.

I've done a few mop up hunts at the end of the season and it can be a bargain. And, I've been offered the opportunity to not follow on wounded game, but I've always gone. The offer was never because the PH thought I was a threat to his safety or that of the crew. No matter how good you think you are, if you hunt long enough, you'll botch a shot sooner or later.

quote:

Some clients, apparently, think it is the professional hunter's job to follow wounded game and finish them off.

It is and it isn't:

The PH's primary job is to ensure the safety and well-being of the client at all times and to limit exposure to danger when the shit hits the fan.

It goes without saying that almost all clients want to experience the privilege of shooting/killing their own game and the PH will strive to make this happen.

"Following up on wounded game" is a rather generic term in that wounded DG does not really fall within that category and it is up to the PH to evaluate the scenario and to decide if the client will be a liability or not in the follow-up of a potentially dangerous situation.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Some clients, apparently, think it is the professional hunter's job to follow wounded game and finish them off.

It is and it isn't:

The PH's primary job is to ensure the safety and well-being of the client at all times and to limit exposure to danger when the shit hits the fan.

It goes without saying that almost all clients want to experience the privilege of shooting/killing their own game and the PH will strive to make this happen.

"Following up on wounded game" is a rather generic term in that wounded DG does not really fall within that category and it is up to the PH to evaluate the scenario and to decide if the client will be a liability or not in the follow-up of a potentially dangerous situation.

Said from a man of great experience

It is incredible what some PHs put up with as far as clients are.

And many stories told back home by some of these clients are as far from the truth as the moon is from earth.

We had one of these utter idiots with us once on a hunt in South Africa!

He was telling us the story of his day.

After he finished, his PH asked “is Mike talking about our hunt??”

2024 has been a very bad year for PHs. 3 mauled by leopard and one killed by a buffalo. The amount of animals that are being wounded in recent times is simply not acceptable. Yes everyone makes bad shots but it seems to be a lot more frequent in recent times. I think that more emphasis should be put on how important the first shot on any animal is, especially on the dangerous game. More discussions about how dangerous these animals are when wounded, more attention on hunters ability on shooting the bigger calibers. I think that a target/box should be placed at 50 yards and the hunter made to shoot 10 rounds at the target free hand. If there are any flinches or other shooting issues then they can be addressed there and then. Its not about just checking if the rifles are shooting accurately, it's about the hunters shooting ability as well. Yes some PH's pressure hunters into taking risky shots, but at the end of the day it is the hunter/client, that is making the first shot. If he/she is not happy with the shot then the trigger should not be pulled. Peoples lives are at risk. This African big game hunting is not a game, there is no winner or looser. Peoples egos should not play a part of the hunt. It does not matter how much money someone has or how much hunting someone has done, once the sights are set on one of the dangerous animals that can kill you, that person must be sure that when he or she pulls the trigger that animal is going to die. I personally have seen far too many hunters coming over to Africa to hunt the dangerous animals, hardly ever shooting their big caliber rifles and when they do shoot them they are flinching, cant see the crosshairs of the scope etc etc. This is not the time to be sorting out the shooting issues. Because hunters have less time now days, they want to hunt the same amount of animals in ten days as what a 21 day safari use to be set aside for. More and more hunters seem to be in a rush to get their animals. This also causes problems. Hunters must take time to hunt the animals ethically and in a sporting manner. The more pressure the Ph is put under, the more risks are taken, thats when life changing tragedies can happen. It seems that there are far too many excuses for bad shooting now days. Ammunition is too expensive to practice a lot, no time to practice, no where to practice, the scope is not fit for my eyes, must be bad ammmo etc etc. When people come on these expensive hunts in Africa the rifle and the ammo is the cheapest part. Time has to be set aside to go to a range and practice, practice and practice some more until all the faults are ironed out. Once in a hunting area there are no places to replace a scope or ammunition. Find out what the very best rifles and ammo are for the animals that are going to be hunted, there are enough experts out there that are willing to share their advise free of charge. There is no excuse once the trigger has been pulled and the animal is wounded. If the hunter is not happy with the shot, it should not be taken. There will always be another chance.

I have said many times before, there are individuals who have no business hunting.

Or using a gun.

I saw plenty of these at shooting ranges!

Interesting topic. The problem here is that "physically fit" by who's definition?

I consider myself in the upper 5% as far as fitness goes. I ride and race bicycles 5-6 days a week and have a personal trainer for gym work. so, Is everyone less fit than myself "out of shape"? by no means so.

Just because a guy is carrying a few extra pounds, doesn't make him fit. Conversely, just because you're trim doesn't mean you are.

I feel that I have been very fortunate to have collected some very, very fine hunting trophies. That said, I do believe that a PH might see myself as someone who he doesn't need to concern himself with as far as walking.

When I was on track of LDE with Mike Fell, some of the stories he told me were unbelievable.

I've also heard stories, that I cannot confirm, about Marco Polo hunts where the guides go off "to find a wounded Ram" and come back with a questionable trophy that the hunter felt wasn't the one he shot. His condition didn't allow him to go along with them.

Typically, hunting in Africa is pretty easy. Walking on flat ground and only carrying a rifle isn't difficult. Yes, following a herd of Buffalo can be a long and tedious day, but it isn't grueling.

When a PH makes a decision as to who goes and who doesn't there is probably some long and hard thought given to his decision.

Whatever the shape, size or age of a client is irrelevant as the hunting industry relies on their participation and financial contribution as well to keep it alive and failing to accommodate this group of clientele is tantamount to discrimination.

Truth be told there are quite a few who fail to qualify for the "ideal client" category but should nevertheless still be entertained and catered for accordingly; this is where the PH shows his true mettle to ensure the client is not denied that same privilege reserved to others, to savor what could be one of many hunts to come or his first and last.

The hunt may not turn out to be as successful as the PH might desire but could equally end up as a stellar hunt in the client's mind.

I can easily understand how it would be more advantageous in some cases for the client to stay back.

It obviously depends on the client.

Following up a wounded dangerous animal is not for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Whatever the shape, size or age of a client is irrelevant as the hunting industry relies on their participation and financial contribution as well to keep it alive and failing to accommodate this group of clientele is tantamount to discrimination.

Truth be told there are quite a few who fail to qualify for the "ideal client" category but should nevertheless still be entertained and catered for accordingly; this is where the PH shows his true mettle to ensure the client is not denied that same privilege reserved to others, to savor what could be one of many hunts to come or his first and last.

The hunt may not turn out to be as successful as the PH might desire but could equally end up as a stellar hunt in the client's mind.

I remember hunting the true 'Crocodile Dundee' of Australia and he had not weathered well in his old age but was still keen to hunt. I would send my sons and trackers to find the Buff and late morning when the winds picked up we would slowly take the vehicle to a couple of hundred meters of them and then proceed very slowly on foot. It was extremely exhausting for him but he always got his Buff.



He is now battling cancer and can no longer hunt Africa but it was always his passion and such men you cannot deny their spirit

Do not over look one point. Hunting everywhere is no longer cheap! From Texas to Africa costs have risen dramatically. Who has the expendable cash for such hunting? Mostly some older retired guy who has spent he life building a business or saving! He wants to go and or take his family or so on a great adventure. Young healthy guys are raising a family and building a business, beating up their bodies to make money to go hunting one day! There would be lot fewer PH's with out us old out of shape clients! Take our money and keep us safe!

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
https://www.hoferwaffen.com/ho...pid=761&cid=&lang=de

Charlie64,

The only PH I have ever heard turn down clients because of physical fitness is the legendary Kai-Uwe Denker.


Denker’s response to people who show up at his booth at a hunting convention. Mind you, Denker is there to sell hunts, so one has to wonder his motivation in the following situation: An overweight man shows up at Denker’s booth and asks the price of a hunt, whereupon Denker answers, “Do you think you are going hunting with me with that body?” This has happened on more than one occasion.

I saw this happen. Uwe is a serious foot hunter. He expects you to be in hiking shape to go 20-25 miles per day at his pace, then drop down, sleep and go again the next. I saw him turn down several hunters that he said "you are too fat and will not keep up".

I was keen to hunt with him 20 years ago, but not sure I could these days. I respect that.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Interesting topic. The problem here is that "physically fit" by who's definition?

I consider myself in the upper 5% as far as fitness goes. I ride and race bicycles 5-6 days a week and have a personal trainer for gym work. so, Is everyone less fit than myself "out of shape"? by no means so.

Just because a guy is carrying a few extra pounds, doesn't make him fit. Conversely, just because you're trim doesn't mean you are.

I feel that I have been very fortunate to have collected some very, very fine hunting trophies. That said, I do believe that a PH might see myself as someone who he doesn't need to concern himself with as far as walking.

When I was on track of LDE with Mike Fell, some of the stories he told me were unbelievable.

I've also heard stories, that I cannot confirm, about Marco Polo hunts where the guides go off "to find a wounded Ram" and come back with a questionable trophy that the hunter felt wasn't the one he shot. His condition didn't allow him to go along with them.

Typically, hunting in Africa is pretty easy. Walking on flat ground and only carrying a rifle isn't difficult. Yes, following a herd of Buffalo can be a long and tedious day, but it isn't grueling.

When a PH makes a decision as to who goes and who doesn't there is probably some long and hard thought given to his decision.

Agree totally but I would also add that I've seen very fit people physically cave because they can't embrace the suck when the terrain or weather gets difficult.

We are having a pointless argument.

There is a paying customer.

There is a trading professional.

They agree, between them, how the hunt is run.

End of story.

First time hunting in South Africa I became the laughing stock of everyone first couple of days.

As I kept jumping off the truck to shoot.

Then I was told they shoot from the back of the truck.

So I did that.

Walter, who had serious health problems, said hunting in South Africa was the best thing he ever did!!

African terrain is not always easy. I've hunted in a few places where there was a lot of up and down and steep hills, uncertain footing, etc. That said, I'm not in the best shape and at times have struggled to keep up, but hope to be in top shape before next year and next year should be the level ground Steve describes.

In my early days I was an exercise snob .

Why can't other keep in shape.

The I was hit with Lyme's. Then at 60 3 stents now prostate cancer.

I no longer question others.

Last year I had the younger members gut and drag my deer out

I told them I had help them all before now it is time that I need help

Actually, it is surprising what one can do.

A few weeks ago we were in Verbier, Switzerland.

There is no flat ground there.

I arrived in the afternoon, my wife and daughter were at our home.

Had visiting friends from Dubai and the UK.

Was told they planned on a hike the next morning.

The hike was up in the mountains, where there is a stream that goes on for miles around a sort of horseshoe .

Trouble is the stream was quite high from our place, and no one wanted to walk up to it.

Except my daughter Hessa and her dog, Alask.

Everyone was taking the ski lift up and meeting up with here there.

She actually told them before I arrived that “dad will walk up with me!”

I did.

It was a bit hard in some places in the forest.

By the time we stopped for lunch up in one of the highest restaurants, my Garmin was showing we walked over 9 kilometers.

Including 1,584 meters up!!??

If anyone told me I would walk uphill 1.5 kilometers I wouldn’t have gone!!

I think the PH should always have the option to "fire on report" to minimize the chance of follow up of wounded game. I think we owe this to both the PH and the critter.

quote:

Originally posted by Arniet:
I think the PH should always have the option to "fire on report" to minimize the chance of follow up of wounded game. I think we owe this to both the PH and the critter.

Absolutely not!

I have seen trigger happy PHs on YouTube, I would never hunter them.

Anytime the PH feels it is NECESSARY, then it is up to him to shoot.

I always have this argument with whoever I hunt with.

But under no circumstances would I allow a PH to fire when it is not necessary.

As I have had described to me "there are people with the check book but not ability" or that are more in love with the "idea" of hunting than actually doing it.

“I don't want to go in there,” said Macomber. It was out before he knew he'd said it.

“Neither do I,” said Wilson very cheerily. “Really no choice though.”

“You don't have to go in, of course,” he said. “that's what I'm hired for, you know. That's why I'm so expensive.” -Robert Wilson, PH following up a wounded lion


It's crappy, but's always been and always will be part of the job, as summed up by Hemmingway's character as written in the 1920s.

I shot a croc in the water in lake Kariba.

He went under in what we thought was quite deep water.

Roy said "I will have to get a diving mask from the camp to look for him"

I said "get two. I am going in with you"

A couple of minutes later, the croc surfaces across the bay and was trying to get out of the water.

His head was out, and was seen opening and closing his mouth, trying to breath.

I lay down and shot him again in the head.

First shot hit him in the throat, that is why he was not able to breath.

We have followed wounded dangerous animals where there was no choice but one person can get through the bush, and I think a professional hunter would not allow his client to go through first.

One morning we saw two old bulls feeding in the grass.

We got above them, and I shot one.

He ran off a few yards and dropped.

The second ran a bit and stopped to look.

I shot him too.

He ran off into very thick grass with lots of trees.

We knew he went down, but were not sure of his condition or where.

Someone climbed a tree and saw him lying down, still alive.

Trouble was you cannot see him until you are on top of him.

There was a tree a few feet from him.

I said to Alan I would go to it and shoot him.

He wasn't happy about it, as the bull was probably 10 feet behind that tree.

And he was still alive.

We agreed on that and I slowly got behind the tree, and was able to get a finishing shot in.

I am not sure if he would have let another client do that, without knowing him as well.

Tall grass is a real problem. In 2021, I shot a bull thinking he was broadside, he wasn't, he was quartering to, so the shot was too far back. He ran into a sea of tall grass which made for a long day. Eventually, he lined out and went parallel to a karongo that he was apparently too sick to cross and we followed, but the grass was thick and over our heads. It was hard going. I was hunting with Ernst Schultz and he got a bad feeling and decided to back out and cross the korongo. The trackers couldn't see the buffalo from the trees on the other side of the karongo, but we walked along the edge and eventually Ernst saw the buffalo right on the other side. I couldn't see him (Ernst is taller than I am) so he made a finishing shot. Once we crossed the karongo and came up to the buffalo, you literally could not see him until about 10 feet. He had been waiting for us. Ernst's second sense saved us that day. Like to never got him out of there. Like I say, I like to put them down right there if possible and avoid follow-ups and I hope I never have to do a follow up in the long grass.

Shot a lion in Chete.

He was feeding on a hippo we had put up for him in a tree in a gully between two mountains.

I shot from the top of one of these mountains.

He was actually standing feeding when I shot.

He dropped at the shot, started growling and disappeared before I could get another shot in.

He continued growing where we could not see him.

After he stopped we went down to look.

Lots of blood by the tree, but no lion.

Very rocky area where he could be hiding.

Decided to go up the other mountain, may be we could see something.

We did.

Nothing to see.

Back down, and trying to see where the blood was heading.

One of our trackers saw him lying between two large rocks.

He was less than a yard from him.

Imagine of he was still alive!

This year in Tanzania, had a license for two Buff. We tracked two old Dagga Boys on edge and in long grass. We caught up to them with PH getting in tree. The one bull I could see was in under a tree laying down the other I could barely see to my right. They were about 35 yds. The PH told me to shoot the one when he got up. I did, he ran off to left in more long grass. The second bull moved to my right broadside 35 yds. The PH said if you want him shoot him, I said and thought I don't want to shoot two. I want to hunt another one. So I passed, about that time we heard the death bellow on the first. We started walking to him and the second bull had come back. The PH said you have to shoot him because he's coming. I put up my rifle heard him snort and he started coming. I shot him at 20 yds with a lethal frontal and he turned left headed to trackers and PH followed up with 500 NE on side with a precautionary shot. Did he have enough gas to take out a tracker? Don't but it ended it and I had two buffalo. Great hunt and it's what we do it for and nobody got hurt.
There was also another incident late in hunt Hippo hunting when one came that appeared to have been wounded by poachers with on their funky weapons. PH dumped him. As we all know this can and does go with the territory.

As I have said on occasion here - I tell the PH, shoot if you feel you need to... Period.

I do not want to get hooked nor anyone else. If I shoot poorly, I expect the PH to shoot. That is why he is carrying a stopper.

I have three occasions where the PH shot - all three justified. I made killing shots but the buff was still moving toward us. I trust the PH or I don't hunt with him. BTW - It was Dean Kendall and Thierry Labat. I am glad they chose to fire.

Dean was hunting with us when a wounded buffalo charged them.

He put it down.

quote:

The PH said you have to shoot him because he's coming.

Interesting.
What if you only had one Buffalo on license?