Lest some of you think I am a careless, wanton killer, my father used to carry his shotgun over his shoulder, with the muzzle pointed backwards, invariably pointed right at me if I was anywhere behind him.

It is never a good thing to get into a serious argument with the old man regardless of your age but at some point I just had had enough.

But he forever denied any such practice so I just gave in and always walked in front or far enough to the side.

It is obviously your own responsibility to be safe and insure others around you practice safe gun handling.

You can outlaw stupid but I'm pretty sure you just can't prevent it.

Others have said it. I will say it again.

It's not the method of carry that matters; it's where the muzzle is pointed.

Do not cover anything with the muzzle of your firearm that you do not intend to kill.

That is all there is to it.

If it is predictable, it is preventable.

So for these guys who do AC and have their muzzle under control at all times.....

how do you turn around to look behind you, or to talk to the person behind you?

what do you do when something catches the corner of your eye at your 9 o clock?

how do you deal with a right hand turn in the trail, when those in front of you are now crossing your front ie where your muzzle is pointing? (assuming you are right handed?)

and how do you negotiate low brush (which is necessary 100 times a day in some areas)?

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
So for these guys who do AC and have their muzzle under control at all times.....

how do you turn around to look behind you, or to talk to the person behind you?

what do you do when something catches the corner of your eye at your 9 o clock?

how do you deal with a right hand turn in the trail, when those in front of you are now crossing your front ie where your muzzle is pointing? (assuming you are right handed?)

and how do you negotiate low brush (which is necessary 100 times a day in some areas)?

Russ,

1st & 2nd points. - I turn my head to look behind me and either do the same thing if I want to speak to the person behind me, or if I need to face him, I either pull the muzzle down so it points to the ground or push it skywards, (but I don't point it at any human), or I point the muzzle to the side or take the rifle and cradle it in my arms pointing in a safe direction.

3rd Point. - If something catches my eye, I turn my head. If I have to face whatever has caught my eye, I pull the muzzle down or puch it skywards as I turn (if necessary) and then point the muzzle in a safe direction.

4th point. - I point the muzzle up or down as they turn in front of me or take the rifle in my hands and change carry.

5th point. - I don't understand why low brush would make a difference? - If you mean thick bush, I take the rifle in my hands and carry it that way for as long as necessary.

Incidentally, I also very often give my rifle to my head tracker who always walks in front of me. He's trained to carry my rifle the same way and if I need it in a hurry, I just reach forward and take it and he ducks down or steps to the 'safe side'............ and it works a treat.

To me. the most important thing by far is to ensure you don't point the rifle at anyone, not whether you carry it on a sling, in your hands or any other way. If you point it at someone and you have an AD, you'll shoot them. If you don't point it at anyone and you have an AD, you won't shoot anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
So for these guys who do AC and have their muzzle under control at all times.....

how do you turn around to look behind you, or to talk to the person behind you?

what do you do when something catches the corner of your eye at your 9 o clock?

how do you deal with a right hand turn in the trail, when those in front of you are now crossing your front ie where your muzzle is pointing? (assuming you are right handed?)

and how do you negotiate low brush (which is necessary 100 times a day in some areas)?

You're kidding with these questions, right?

If not, I would suggest that you buy a pack of gum and practice walking while chewing it.

Good Lord Russ, you can point that muzzle in any direction with the AC..Up, down, sideways, in either direction or anywhere in between. Your in complete control of the muzzle and that btw is where the bullet comes out!

I think you need to try it, and with an open mind, then make your own conclusion and unless your just being hard headed you will see that it is defineately a viable option.

And that as far as I am concerned is Law.
The fact that there is discussion going on as to the ins and outs of pointing your muzzle at anyone, whether loaded or unloaded is worrying.
Risking anyone else's life for the sake of your comfort is not acceptable in the field. Hell who is going to worry about a potential charge when then have a gun toting fool pointing a loaded rifle at them. For my money I will choose the sharp end of a horn thanks

I don't understand why slings are so unpopular in Africa.

Slings are not unpopular, it's just that in heavy cove or brush, tall grass, etc, when you need to mount the gun quickly they have a nasty tendency to get caught or catch on brush and slow things way down. I always carry my sling in my pocket and on long walks back to the car or camp, I sling the rifle. I thoroughly agree that the AC is not inherently dangerous and it's where the muzzle is pointing that counts. I happen to find if very easy when my hand is on the muzzle to very easily (perhaps more easily) manipulate where the muzzle is pointing at all times.

I also find that the AC (at least for me) is much safer in one way: on a forward fire, rearward safe gun, any brush, etc that comes in contact with the safety will not "push" it off. I don't know how many times in 50 years of hunting with a slung rifle behind me, I've had either my belt, some brush or something else in advertently release the safety (some actions are worse than others). It is very disturbing to check your saftey only to find that your gun you thought was on safe, is not. I have never had such a problem with AC.

I love the over-the-shoulder carry, great for putting on miles and picking your way thru bush/thorns, tall grass, or climbs/descents including over challenging ground.

And with it I like a crisp 3-position not-too-large safety, where the rifle is safe when in the back position (like the Ruger).

I carried a scoped loaner CZ in .375 during my last hunt, 2-position safe when fwd, and my (and the PH's) concern was the safety getting knocked off by the bush. I (or the tracker if I had the Lott) carried this w/o a cartridge in the chamber, and yes at least once dry-fired it on non-dangerous game. But, given the rifle, this was the safest way to carry it and we got used to it not being loaded.

If somebody is unsafe handling their rifle, I would not limit my concern to the type of carry, but everytime they touched the rifle. It is amazing more PH's - and their Crusiers - are not shot.

Now when the Game Scout starts racking his AK, it is indeed time to be concerned!!!

The sum of this discussion is, not the carry, but the man carrying!

If he is a safe gun handler, you are safe as well in his presence, and he is as well, if you are a safe gun handler yourself! The method of carry has nothing to do with it!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The sum of this discussion is, not the carry, but the man carrying!

If he is a safe gun handler, you are safe as well in his presence, and he is as well, if you are a safe gun handler yourself! The method of carry has nothing to do with it!

Spot on assessment. End of arguement.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
So for these guys who do AC and have their muzzle under control at all times.....

how do you turn around to look behind you, or to talk to the person behind you?

what do you do when something catches the corner of your eye at your 9 o clock?

how do you deal with a right hand turn in the trail, when those in front of you are now crossing your front ie where your muzzle is pointing? (assuming you are right handed?)

and how do you negotiate low brush (which is necessary 100 times a day in some areas)?

I know Shakiri answered but here is what I do:

If I turn around I either pull the muzzles down if turning to the side with the rifle or pull them away to the side if turning to the side without the rifle.

To look 90* then tunr my head, if more turning is needed the same as turning around.

For a right hand turn by the party, I point the muzzles down, if its more than a jink, but a sweeping turn the with the muzzles down I swap hands and shoulders and raise the muzzles to the natural position.

To duck under brush I raise the muzzles and let the rifle drop down on the shoulder blade, returning to position after having passed the low hanging brush. If there is extensive brush, I carry the rifle in one hand or cradle it with one hand on the bottom of the grip and the forearm cradled in the crook of my elbow. In even the densest bush or jess, the rifle will spend the great majority of time on the shoulder.

To look through binos, unussual for me, then I hook my forearm over the barrels which are poinint at about a 45* angle so I can use two hands on the binos.

On tracks for hours, ever possible carry gets used, including a sling if the rifle has one, including holding the butt with the barrels pointing up and rearward.... Four, six, eight, ten hours of walking and they all get used.

JPK

I will just let the tracker carry my rifle and if he shoots me, I will kill him .

Seriously? You think ACers are robots that can't react and adapt to different situations in front of them? Instead, keeping the muzzle pointed directly to the front, or whipping around to look behind them with the muzzle flashing about?

For the record, I don't AC in Africa, but I do with my hunting buddies while rabbit hunting, turkey hunting, and waking into and out of a stand while deer hunting. So, I'll take a crack at these:

quote:

So for these guys who do AC and have their muzzle under control at all times.....

how do you turn around to look behind you, or to talk to the person behind you?

Either turn your head 90deg and talk without turning around, or *gasp* take the rifle off the shoulder

quote:

what do you do when something catches the corner of your eye at your 9 o clock?

Whip around real quick without thought of where the muzzle is pointing. Sometimes we just start shooting, in case it's a deer.

No wait, that's what a complete moron would do. I turn my head to that direction to look at whatever it is to see.

quote:

how do you deal with a right hand turn in the trail, when those in front of you are now crossing your front ie where your muzzle is pointing? (assuming you are right handed?)

Oh golly! The dreaded right-hand turn! You know, the rifle doesn't have to point to the direct front. Just move the muzzle to the right and the rifle can point almost 90deg off to the right and still be on the shoulder. One can also lower the muzzle so that it points at the dirt just ahead of you. Either of this as well as *gasp* taking the rifle off the shoulder would work for that pesky right-hand turn.

Or you could just make three lefts

quote:

and how do you negotiate low brush (which is necessary 100 times a day in some areas)?

This is even more difficult than the dreaded right-hand turn. You can take the rifle off your shoulder.


*Whew!* That was harder than calculus...

Even more difficult when you are doing a right turn with a double over your shoulder in front fo a keyboard. To further complicate it this is most often when you are taken on with a frontal assult from a rogue troll. At this stage the best option is to fling verbal abuse at the offending target whilst trying your best not to overbalance in the quest to catch that ever elusive mouse.

Sgt Sabre,

Russ Gould is not the first person who, without the experience of trying the AC, has had questions and corncerns with it.

Moreover, it works better with some types and configurations of rifles than others and on some types of hunts than others.

No reason to belittle the questions, eh?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
Even more difficult when you are doing a right turn with a double over your shoulder in front fo a keyboard. To further complicate it this is most often when you are taken on with a frontal assult from a rogue troll. At this stage the best option is to fling verbal abuse at the offending target whilst trying your best not to overbalance in the quest to catch that ever elusive mouse.

OR............Making post from another keyboard, like the one above without stateing who it is aimed at!

This is silly because safety has nothing to do with the method of carry, but everything to do with the nut holding the rifle!

While on the subject of "carries":

Like most here I'm a BIG fan of Capstick's work, but did he EVER write anything sillier than the carry method he proposed in
Safari: The Last Adventure?? Sling behind the left shoulder, rifle held upright out front with the left hand?

Struck me as something only somebody who badly wanted something named after him would suggest...

I always carry my rifles in condition one ,larges marches in rhodesian ready ,sometimes stock in shoulder muzzle depressed the rifle in front of the chest -product of my military training-.
Another local guide member of AR mfischer always carries his rifle in the african method over the shoulder but.....i prefer military carrying sistems.

The Three MOST Important Rules Stated In Order:

1-ALWAYS Handle Firearms As LOADED
2-ALWAYS Point Muzzle(s) At Your Target, [sometimes the target is the SKY or ground etc.]
3-ALWAYS Prevent UNINTENDED Pulls Of Trigger(s), [whether by fingers or foreign objects.]

It's NOT QUITE perfectly certain that a firearm
won't "Go Off" unintended if the triggger(s) don't
get pulled, but it's very, very unlikely. That's
why the SECOND rule requires safely pointed muzzle(s)
and the THIRD rule IS THIRD and NOT SECOND.

I hate the idea of an unloaded firearm except
for cleaning or inspection/disassembly times.
Some say unload firearms in camp. I say No Way,
we mentally "gear down" just a bit when told,
"It's NOT loaded...". That "ever so slight" re-
laxing of our "Be Safe FIRST" type of thinking
can kill unintentionally. Store the arms correctly
when not hunting, but keep them loaded. We
never know when a human with ill intentions is
about to make a move against us.

quote:

Like most here I'm a BIG fan of Capstick's work, but did he EVER write anything sillier than the carry method he proposed in
Safari: The Last Adventure?? Sling behind the left shoulder, rifle held upright out front with the left hand?

That always struck me as odd also. I thought it seemed like something that was thought up by someone who wanted to be different, but was never tried before it made it into print.

Carrying the rifle slung over the shoulder with the butt behind the shoulder and the muzzle down and pointing slightly toward the front seems just as odd. But unlike the "Capstick carry" it does have some merit.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
No reason to belittle the questions, eh?

JPK

Why not? Rus has insinuated that anyone who has carried on the shoulder (even with only the mag loaded) has been a danger to anyone else in the vicinity. Sounds like it would be an insult to some people.

I think this is one of the most important threads ever posted on AR.



On a long, hot hunt you will probably carry your rifle several ways, including over the shoulder frontwards and backwards.



And muzzle down over the left shoulder.

Your fellow hunters and staff will also carry more than one way.

Very few of us who have not been to Africa are used to hunting in a large party of rifle shooters.

I tried to keep my muzzle away from my fellow hunters.

They very seldom bothered to keep theirs away from me!

Be warned, be safe, and discuss protocol with your PH.

Andy

Hi Andy
Off topic, but what stock is that on your rifle? Is that custom paint or standard?
Thanks
Ian

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
No reason to belittle the questions, eh?

JPK

Why not? Rus has insinuated that anyone who has carried on the shoulder (even with only the mag loaded) has been a danger to anyone else in the vicinity. Sounds like it would be an insult to some people.

Maybe there was insult in the first posts, but by the time he posted the questions there was increduality but no insult. That change likely the result of the informative and reasonable responses given prior to the later questions he asked.

JPK

Vlam,

That is a BRNO 602 kevlar stock by McMillan, inletted for a CZ 550 by ROBAR (Robbie Barrkman's business in Phoenix).

Robbie added the "knurled" finish which he applies to many of his military sniper rifles at my request.

The color was also borrowed from his para-military side of the business. It is actually an "urban camoflauge" gray.

I thought it would blend in with the dry season acacia trees and it did!

Robbie also did the nickle plating on bolt, trigger, safety and follower.

If you need contact information send me a PM.

Andy

Believe I saw on AR recently a photo of Harry Selby's daughter with a rifle over her shoulder. She didn't look dangerous to me.

Only on the internet! I don't care one damn how anyone carries their gun as long as they are safe and don't point it at me or anyone else in my party...Whatever the carry a person must be careful, end of story!

I don't see how this can even be a discussion, except at a school for begining shooters or at boy scout camp..

I believe methods of carrying are interesting ,and affects ,the resolution of some hunts and confontation with 4 and two legs critters.Most of the people here arent begginers ,Ganyana is a real operator ,military and hunting ,i believe myself after 35 years shooting ,hunting ,guiding,competing in the national team ,teaching civilians and military personnel ,im not a beginner .By the way Jeff Cooper methods are a sure way to carry ,some of them are ilustrated by GILES STOCK another excellent operator in the book THE ART OF THE RIFLE a book that i recommend ,Ultimate Sniper by Plaster is another book ver useful for riflemans.Juan

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I don't see how this can even be a discussion, except at a school for begining shooters or at boy scout camp..

Which is it for you Ray, I think you've had four posts here now.

If you use a sling check it's integrity frequently and that it's securely connected every time you take it out.

I've had a sling come off the stud and the rifle drop butt first onto the ground with the muzzle ending up in my armpit

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

If you use a sling check it's integrity frequently and that it's securely connected every time you take it out.

I've had a sling come off the stud and the rifle drop butt first onto the ground with the muzzle ending up in my armpit Eeker Frowner thumbdown

That happened to me also except the muzzle hit the dirt first and I had to unclog it before continuing on. The sling was a nylon one made by Uncle Mike of Oregon. I now use leather slings exclusively when I use slings at all. I find that the nylon slings get caught up in the thorns and also they make a lot of noise when I try to pull the rifle free.




When going through thick brush or thorns I find the over-the-shoulder carry to be best for me. Besides, the PH usually carry his that way. Of course, we are always mindful of safety and where the muzzle is pointing.

Rifle carry should be according to one's own preference, as long as it does not endanger you or others.

Namibiahunter

This issue of safe carriage when hunting with a PH, trackers and other 'hangers-on' has always concerned me too.

Yes, the African over-the-shoulder carriage is the easiest and most comfortable, but when you are number two or three in the line, with your tracker and PH in front, and the line is weaving through the thornbush, and you are trying to spot game and trying to following the tracking (so you are not just a passenger on the hunt) it is very easy for your muzzle to cover one of the bodies in front.

So it depends upon the situation. When the terrain and the pace of the hunt allows it, I will use the over the shoulder carry but step off to the side, slightly, so that the muzzle only 'sees' bush. If the thornbush is thick, and single column is the only way, then I tend to cradle the rifle with the muzzle pointing at 90 degress to our travel and my thumb on the safety for added assurance (yes, I am paranoid about safety, too!).

I always carry my a cz375hyh rifle over the shoulder while guiding .I guide for the weatherby nominee Jose Sodiro ,and for Juan Pozzi ,an expert instructor who always advice me against this practice ,and showed me confortable israeli slings,giles stock slings ,ec he uses during very long walks or horseback hunts 3 points slings in his guide gun,or israeli 2 points ,i saw him resting his arms in his rifle in front of his chest ,BUT I CONTINUE CARRYING OVER MY SHOULDER.