I can't tell you how many times I have personally seen rifles carried on the shoulder in the "traditional" African method, muzzle forward. Sometimes they are not loaded, but sometimes they are, and always there is ammo in the mag.

I know why this is done...on a DG rifle, the sling is normally omitted. So the easiest way to carry a heavy rifle without a sling is over the shoulder.

However, it's clearly not a safe way to carry a rifle. Easy for brush to snag the trigger and boom, someone is going to get a nasty surprise or worse.

I prefer that the PH carries his rifle in his right hand muzzle down. Or if it's a double, over the shoulder and broken but unloaded. If shooting is imminent, then the rifle can be carried at port arms loaded.

Or am I just too strict?

I think i'd rather have my PH/guide carrying it ready to go if we were in an area where you could unexpectedly come across a cranky dugga boy or ele.

The time it would take to load or chamber a round might be too long for you not to get trodden on / bitten.

Russ,
For my money there's no such thing as too strict when it comes to safety with firearms.

Nothing sadder than somebody getting crippled or dead through carelessness.

There ought to be a law(?).

Do what you want to, but all this sounds more like the bureaucrats trying to tell me how dangerous it is to get up in the morning!

How many people get killed every year doing what you describe? It reminds me of all the reports of the hungry and starving masses in the US. Just once I would like to see the body of anyone that starved to death. Just one.

What was the point of this post again?

There are some interesting attitudes to "The African Carry'.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Numbe...&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.australianhunting.net/index.php?topic=26552.0

I've been prowling this forum and a couple of others for quite a while, and I have yet to hear of anyone getting shot by shoulder carry. I've carried my rifles that way for years, always insure that the muzzle doesn't cover anyone, and have yet to hang a rifle up in the bush because I am careful. Very very careful.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Russ,
For my money there's no such thing as too strict when it comes to safety with firearms.

Nothing sadder than somebody getting crippled or dead through carelessness.

Or how about safety with the dreaded automobile? I guess you should figure out how to stop the cops from routinely going 10 to 20 mph over the speed limit.

Or how about a national speed limit of 25 mph? Or better yet, just outlaw cars, except for the important people like Senators and Reps. and Nancy with her jet? Doesn't she know that speed kills? And flying? Now that is inherently dangerous.

And we could solve the hoax of global warming by eliminating the carbon footprint of ethanol production.

Or eliminate your carbon footprint of the evil and inherently dangerous practice of hunting by just staying home. And how much more dangerous for the animals? Not only of being shot but choking on all that carbon dioxide.

It's all so scary. It's a global crisis. We need more laws, and at least higher taxes, to solve this insipid disease that not only is killing our children here at home but around the globe.

More at 10.

Will,
I watched a kid take an 8-round burst in the face from an M16 because of carelessness, so sneer all you like, I don't figure a little extra care ever killed anybody but sure as fuck a little carelessness has.

It's also a rare week when I don't drive past some carnage somewhere on the highway caused the same way, Saturday morning it was a jack-knifed rig just south of Louisville that wandered into a guardrail then jack-knifed across all three northbound lanes of I-65. Don't know if anybody got maimed or killed but sure as hell the potential was there.

Word was the driver dropped his cell phone and leaned down to pick it up.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I prefer that the PH carries his rifle in his right hand muzzle down. Or if it's a double, over the shoulder and broken but unloaded. If shooting is imminent, then the rifle can be carried at port arms loaded.

Or am I just too strict?

I can't believe it. Someone telling a PH how to carry his rifle. Over the shoulder is not inherently dangerous IMO. But I can imagine a rifle carried muzzle down in the right hand ending up pointing back at anyone, after a bad tumble.

And with all the walking involved I would expect anyone to change positions and hands.

So there is no guarentee your plane won't crash on the way, or something won't tromp you to death, and there is NO totally safe way to be around firearms. How many times has an "unloaded" one gone off?

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I've been prowling this forum and a couple of others for quite a while, and I have yet to hear of anyone getting shot by shoulder carry. I've carried my rifles that way for years, always insure that the muzzle doesn't cover anyone, and have yet to hang a rifle up in the bush because I am careful. Very very careful.

One of Zimbabwe's best known PH and outfitter once killed and seriously wounded his trackers with this method of carrying a rifle.
No need for names.

Best thing to do is stay away from anything that COULD be dangerous. Better yet lets get the UN to in act global law.

Perry

Jeffive, you are correct safety is foremost with guns or any weapon, it is a personal thing and the responsible thing. Will is also correct hunting is a dangerous sport not only the DG hunting but also from careless "hunters". I am always amazed at how PH's handle the whole thing. He is hosting a hunter that he may have met at a show or maybe just booked via the internet and have never met. When the hunter arrives the PH doesn't know if the person knows the barrel from the stock. I know most of this does not apply to posters here but there are some among us ("hunters")
who are lacking in many hunting and safety skills. Personally I prefer to carry my rifle (not a double - too poor) with a sling on my left shoulder with the butt up, this way it is very easy to bring to my right shoulder.

Jefffive: just wondering: when did you see a burst of 8 strike a kid in the face? the newer versions, of the jamming jennys, have a three round burst mechanism, before you have to release the trigger to shoot again and the ones like I used to carry required you to hold the trigger longer than normal to fire 8 rounds

Interesting responses from folks who seem to be/claim to be experienced hunters.

As a person who regularly buys, fixes, and sells guns, I can tell you that it's not uncommon to find a gun, esp a double, whose safety is U/S.

I can also tell you that anyone over the age of 40 is capable of loading a rifle, and then forgetting that there is a round in the chamber. Some folks under that age too.

Anyone who has hunted in Africa has to understand that it's possible, if not probable, that brush and your trigger are going to come into contact in the right way at the wrong time.

Frankly, I think the truth here is that some folks (yes, God forbid, including hallowed PHs) think it looks macho to carry the rifle this way. The same guys that wear short pants and shirts with the sleeves cut off. Anyone who thinks it is safe to carry a rifle this way through the brush, in a group of people walking in Indian file, needs to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror. And stay the heck away from me and mine.

This is something that comes up from time to time, and there is never a resolution to the thought process that tends to see things in only one way, and are not open to the opposite side of the question! So lets take this post apart, and try to answer each part individually!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
I can't tell you how many times I have personally seen rifles carried on the shoulder in the "traditional" African method, muzzle forward. Sometimes they are not loaded, but sometimes they are, and always there is ammo in the mag.

You will always see this type of carry in Africa, especially when in dangerous game country, or thick Jesse! This is because this has been proven over time that this is the most effecient way to carry a rifle, sans sling, and still get it into action fast.

quote:

I know why this is done...on a DG rifle, the sling is normally omitted. So the easiest way to carry a heavy rifle without a sling is over the shoulder.

That is partially true, but is not why it sarted!
This started when the old ele hunters would allow the tracker/gun bearer to carry the very heavy double rifles, loaded and ready. The butt of the rifle pointed back so the hunter, could simply reach forward, and grab the rifle, and the tracker/gun bearer faded to the side out of the way, leaving the fireing line unobstructed.

quote:

However, it's clearly not a safe way to carry a rifle. Easy for brush to snag the trigger and boom, someone is going to get a nasty surprise or worse.

The safety of this carry is not as dangerous as some seem to think, and my guess is the person thinking this unsafe, has not looked at the actual carry in detail they should have before makeing this assesment.

Fist, the rifle carried on the shoulder, barrel forward, is not pointed at the person in front of the carrier, but at about a 40Deg angle to the right, for a right shoulder carry. This also means the butt, and triggers are behind the carrier's head. and shoulders. This accomplishes three things, #1 the rifle is redily available with the barrels already pointed as near to shooting position as is posible. #2 the triggers, and/or hammers are protected form contact with brush, better than when carried in the right hand at the carrier's side! #3 The barrels are not pointed at anyone, but is pointed 40 Degs to the right into the jesse, with the right hand controlling where the muzzles point.

quote:

I prefer that the PH carries his rifle in his right hand muzzle down. Or if it's a double, over the shoulder and broken but unloaded. If shooting is imminent, then the rifle can be carried at port arms loaded.

This muzzle down carry with the rifle at the carrier's side, makes the rifle's trigger, or triggers more likely to be snagged by brush than over the shoulder carry.

A double rifle carried over the shoulder, open, and unloaded is just an invitation to getting foreign matter in the acction, negateing the loading, and closeing of the rifle when needed in a hurry!

The port arms carry is a given, once you know the traget is near, and in my experience, is always applied in that sittuation, no matter how the rifle was carried before.

quote:

Or am I just too strict?

You are not too strict, and one can never be too strict where safety is concerned, but like the law makers Will mentioned there is no value in passing a law, where there is no problem, and the same goes for the so-called "AFRICAN CARRY". If you really study this carry method, you will see more than you saw before, and may change your mind about the safety of this very old,tried, and true, method of carrying a loaded rifle!

Of course. like any handleing of loaded firearms, there are places where people do not pay attention to where they are pointing them. In this case, Mark Sullivan is one of the worse offenders of this. He does this when he turns to talk to the camera. Because his main focus is on the camera, he often points the muzzles toward his client while talking into the lens of that damn camera.

If you will study the practice, you will come away with a far more favorable opinion of this old method of carry!

This post has nothing to do with Russ, other than his post has expressed concernes about the safety of this carry, and rightly so, if he thinks it is unsafe. My intention is to show, as well as posible, the practice to not be nearly as unsafe as some of the treditional carries we Americans consider safer. It simply happens to be my opinion, that the PH, or African carry is not only safe, but safer than most here think their carry method is! In the end, no form of carry, or safety device is more or less safe than the person who is carrying the rifle!

My opinion, but worth exactly what you paid for it, and it is not binding on anyone here, or anyplace else!

On two different trips I have had two PHs who did not use the safety on their rifle. They raised the bolt part way up till it would not fire. They claimed it was done this way because it was faster to hit the bolt down into the fire position. Both carried their rifle on their shoulder the traditional style with two trackers in front. It seems that hunting professionals are indifferent about safety or meticulous about it. The curious part was that both of the half bolt safety PHs were constantly asking if my gun was unchambered as I walked behind them.

Well I have to ask this:
How many people are killed/injured by a.d.s from a african carry per year?

How many people are killed/injured by d.g. in Africa?

Sooo which is more of a concern in the bush, the carry position or the dangeroud game?

Perry

My rifle is loaded and safety on from the time I arrive in the bush. I use a sling unless a followup is imminant -then I take it off.

Rodger Whital Killed his tracker with an AD from his double carried muzzel forward over the shoulder. I have personally picked up an old Afrikaans farmer who was killed by an AD - He used to pull the trigger of the rilfe as he closed the bolt on a loaded round. He then just lifted the bolt up and down quickly to cock the rifle if needed. Very fast- very fatal (with a mauser with an exposed cocking piece). Had an AD on the proficiency exam from same casue.

We all carried F.N. Rifles cocked and on safe for years with no problems- why change a winning formula? (unless the safety doesn't work - a la old weatherby's!)

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Rodger Whital Killed his tracker with an AD from his double carried muzzel forward over the shoulder. I have personally picked up an old Afrikaans farmer who was killed by an AD - He used to pull the trigger of the rilfe as he closed the bolt on a loaded round. He then just lifted the bolt up and down quickly to cock the rifle if needed. Very fast- very fatal (with a mauser with an exposed cocking piece). Had an AD on the proficiency exam from same casue.

So much for the "experts"! Russ is right all the way.

- mike

When I was in Scotland a few years ago, walking several miles each day I carried my .300 H&H the "african" way. I was alone going up and down hills and actually found it the best way to carry the rifle in general.
I haven`t to africa yet, but I am going to next year with Andrew McLaren and natually I will prior safety first.
I think the "african carry" is a good way to feel "ready" of always having a rifle at hand and especially in pursuit on dangerous game....or where there is a potentiel of of dangerous game is around, even on a simple impalahunt I can imagine.
When comming to africa next year I will let the PH educate me. Things might change my imaginary sence

On the first morning of my first safari we took following some buffalo tracks. the PH instructed me to follow behind the tracker while he followed me. After that first morning he always was in front of me. I found out later that he was following me to see how safely I carried my 465 double. This was actually the first time that I used the over shoulder carry. But I took to it easily but was very anal about watching where the muzzle was pointed. I still am 25 years and 15 safaris later.

When I approach thick Jesse I always take the rifle off of my shoulder and carry it in my right hand at the balance point where I can keep it away from the brush. If you can't carry this way safely then by all means use a sling or carry an unloaded rifle. But remember it is usually the unloaded rifle that kills.

465H&H

One must always be cognizant of the direction of the muzzle, regardless of the carry position. If you are not safe with your gun, there is potential for disaster.

I just returned from my first safari and it was my first ever hunt with a PH/Guild. When were loading the truck with our gear to go out for the first time, I politely notified the PH that she would never have my muzzle ever point at her and I expected the same courtesy. It was very well received and she commented at the end of the hunt that it made it easier on them to look for game when they did not have to worry about me doing something stupid. Her husband nearly had his head blown off by a hunter a few months earlier. This is a sport/recreation, if it can’t be done safely then it should not be done at all.
The only reliable safety on a firearm is the person holding it being continually conscious of muzzle direction, to where it is second nature and to be used in conjunction with the mechanical safety on the firearm.

Anyone who is not aware of where his muzzle is pointing at all times has flunked the first rule of firearms training. I won't hunt with them and am not afraid to tell them to shape up or ship out. I always keep an eye on anyone who I have not hunted with before to make sure they are safe, be they professional or not.

Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
Jefffive: just wondering: when did you see a burst of 8 strike a kid in the face? the newer versions, of the jamming jennys, have a three round burst mechanism, before you have to release the trigger to shoot again and the ones like I used to carry required you to hold the trigger longer than normal to fire 8 rounds

Bryan,
Back in my misspent youth, in 1976. It was on a range during a night-firing exercise, the dead kid knocked a magazine off the bench in front of him, the Safety NCO who had that part of the firing line was clearing a jam three or four positions down and didn't notice him going under the bench, for whatever reason once the kid had his clip back he stood up, directly in front of the guy in the next position over.

On the bright side, he didn't linger.

I have hunted with a number of guides an friends over the past 30 + years, being a firearms safety instructor, I am more then careful and always muzzle conscious... I have carried my rifles over the shoulder slinged, on shoulder holding muzzle at a 45 degree angle from the forward postion... Now when we are in the heavy cover it comes off the shoulder and either a I am ready if a charge comes or I am carrying it with one hand...
Safety is the foremost always in my book and secondly one must be in control of his emotions during a tense situation...

Mike

I think the term should be Negligent Discharge in these cases.



Dutch

I read this post early this morning. It's now evening and I've been thinking about it and particularly Will's response (to this and another similar thread) as long. I do not profess to speak for anyone else but I think I have some insight into what our friend was aluding to, that being that safari hunting as many other activities we indulge in are by definition dangerous activities. For myself I (like all of you) am going to die one day. I don't have a death wish and hope the inevitable waits as long as practical. That said it will come and for myself I'd much perfer it be on safari (whether by man or beast) or one of my other "unusual" activities than by drowning in my own fluids on some hospital bed. Family, friends and people who don't even know me will talk about my death by such means for years as opposed to simply saying "he died." Perhaps it's simply being romantic but its the way I feel. I'll do everything reasonable to forstall death but I will not short change life to avoid it. A very good friend died several years ago on his fiftith birthday. He was celebrating the ocasion by challenging "The Dragon" in east TN. on his Buel. The Dragon won but somehow I doubt he regretted it. He lived through many experiences most of us have not. He took life seriously and cherished it but similarly he had a deep appreciation for living life. To me the fact his was cut short is justified by how much he loved what he did. Do I carry my rifle over my shoulder? Yeah, sometimes but I'm carful about how I do it. Do I allow others to do it around me? Yeah, but I either stay away from their muzzle as possible or tell them to keep it off me! Face it, guns can kill you and accidents happen no matter how diligent we are. As Will insinuates, I will not live in a bubble because of what may happen!

Oupa,
Yeah, we're all gonna die, and some of us will die not because Murphy caught up with us during an elephant charge in the thick stuff or we pushed when we should have backed off a little, but because some lazy, thoughtless SOB did something stupid and careless.

If I die the last way I only hope I last long enough to get a blade into him.

To add to my post above. I will allow an accompaning hunter one mistake. He or she will receive a very very stern warning not to let it happen again. If it does, I will turn around and not hunt with them. Sure hope I never run into a PH with poor safety habits. It could get very embarassing.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To add to my post above. I will allow an accompaning hunter one mistake. He or she will receive a very very stern warning not to let it happen again. If it does, I will turn around and not hunt with them. Sure hope I never run into a PH with poor safety habits. It could get very embarassing.

465H&H

I will explain, once, that I find a loaded gun pointed AT me to be a threat, and if no threat is intended it shouldn't be repeated. If it is I take it right personal.

The African carry came about by having the tracker carry the rifle in the "African carry", when game was spotted or charged the PH stepped forward, shouldered the rifle and fired. It is very fast and effective...

I have carried my rifle in the African carry for years and I ALWAYS know exactly where the muzzle is pointed because I have it in my hand for Petes sake..The last thing I want on my rifle is a friggen sling..

If one cannot carry his rifle in that manner safely then he probably shouldn't be in hunting camp in the first place. I also carry my rifle loaded and on safety, as a empty rifle is hard to save your bacon with..

The last thing I need is some ninnie telling me how to carry my rifle unless I am a danger to someone and I am not...

I am absolutly with Will on this one!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
There ought to be a law(?).

Do what you want to, but all this sounds more like the bureaucrats trying to tell me how dangerous it is to get up in the morning!

How many people get killed every year doing what you describe? It reminds me of all the reports of the hungry and starving masses in the US. Just once I would like to see the body of anyone that starved to death. Just one.

What was the point of this post again?

So what is the point of your almighty post?!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Or how about safety with the dreaded automobile? I guess you should figure out how to stop the cops from routinely going 10 to 20 mph over the speed limit.

Or how about a national speed limit of 25 mph? Or better yet, just outlaw cars, except for the important people like Senators and Reps. and Nancy with her jet? Doesn't she know that speed kills? And flying? Now that is inherently dangerous.

And we could solve the hoax of global warming by eliminating the carbon footprint of ethanol production.

Or eliminate your carbon footprint of the evil and inherently dangerous practice of hunting by just staying home. And how much more dangerous for the animals? Not only of being shot but choking on all that carbon dioxide.

It's all so scary. It's a global crisis. We need more laws, and at least higher taxes, to solve this insipid disease that not only is killing our children here at home but around the globe.

More at 10.

And, your second post as well?

Russ brought up the point of gun safety, which should always be first and foremost regardless if you're chasing a squirrel, quail, elephant, etc.

Let's do this then, Will, if it is ok to carry a loaded weapon hung over your shoulder with a muzzle pointing to the back of someone's head who is awalking in front of you, regardless of who that someone is i.e. tracker, PH, hunting buddy, etc., how about you and I go hunting and I'll walk behind you with my loaded muzzle pointed at your head, and we'll see just exactly how much you like it.

I hate going to gun shows for this very reason. I was once at a very large gun show and saw a guy get shot with his own gun about 10 yards from me. A guy was looking to buy this gun and pulled the trigger on an UNLOADED firearm. Luckily, the gun was pointed towards the ground; however, the bullet shattered both femurs in his legs. It very well could have been me. And, just exactly how many guns get pointed at you at one of these events?

One of my dad's friends accidently shot himself while tracking down a wounded whitetail. The trigger hung on a piece of brush, and when he pulled a bit, the gun went off with the bullet of his 7mm mag hitting him in the left arm, and luckily the bullet went through the two bones in his forearm, but had it struck bone, it would have likely blew his entire left hand off. This very incident could have been avoided had he took his eyes off the blood trail long enough to determine what had snagged his gun.

So, my rant is based upon the facts that when someone brings up gun safety and some smartass, senile, old fart starts making smartass/DUMBASS, needless comments, it just hits me the wrong way.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
There ought to be a law(?).

What was the point of this post again?

So what is the point of your almighty post?!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Or how about safety with the dreaded automobile? I guess you should figure out how to stop the cops from routinely going 10 to 20 mph over the speed limit.

Or how about a national speed limit of 25 mph? Or better yet, just outlaw cars, except for the important people like Senators and Reps. and Nancy with her jet? Doesn't she know that speed kills? And flying? Now that is inherently dangerous.

And we could solve the hoax of global warming by eliminating the carbon footprint of ethanol production.

Or eliminate your carbon footprint of the evil and inherently dangerous practice of hunting by just staying home. And how much more dangerous for the animals? Not only of being shot but choking on all that carbon dioxide.

It's all so scary. It's a global crisis. We need more laws, and at least higher taxes, to solve this insipid disease that not only is killing our children here at home but around the globe.

More at 10.

And, your second post as well?

Russ brought up the point of gun safety, which should always be first and foremost regardless if you're chasing a squirrel, quail, elephant, etc.

Let's do this then, Will, if it is ok to carry a loaded weapon hung over your shoulder with a muzzle pointing to the back of someone's head who is awalking in front of you, regardless of who that someone is i.e. tracker, PH, hunting buddy, etc., how about you and I go hunting and I'll walk behind you with my loaded muzzle pointed at your head, and we'll see just exactly how much you like it.

Graybird, you need to read a little closer for comprehention! The PH carry does not point at anyone, fore or aft, but at a 40 to 45 deg angle to the right, or left, depending on the side it is carried on. This places the muzzlesin the hamd, pointed out into the bush, and the triggers behind the carrier's head, avoiding brush, better than carrying by one's side.

In the final analysis, no method of carry, or safety device is more dangerous than the idiot carrying the rifle! And all carries are safe if the person carrying is a safe gun handler! Done properly all carry methods are as safe as all others! I carry a combination of methods, but I always know where my rifle is pointing, so you carry your way, and I'll carry mine. In 66 yrs of hunting alone, and with other people,since the age of 6 yrs old, I have never had a accidental discharge, or needed to be told where to point my rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
There ought to be a law(?).

What was the point of this post again?

So what is the point of your almighty post?!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Or how about safety with the dreaded automobile? I guess you should figure out how to stop the cops from routinely going 10 to 20 mph over the speed limit.

Or how about a national speed limit of 25 mph? Or better yet, just outlaw cars, except for the important people like Senators and Reps. and Nancy with her jet? Doesn't she know that speed kills? And flying? Now that is inherently dangerous.

And we could solve the hoax of global warming by eliminating the carbon footprint of ethanol production.

Or eliminate your carbon footprint of the evil and inherently dangerous practice of hunting by just staying home. And how much more dangerous for the animals? Not only of being shot but choking on all that carbon dioxide.

It's all so scary. It's a global crisis. We need more laws, and at least higher taxes, to solve this insipid disease that not only is killing our children here at home but around the globe.

More at 10.

And, your second post as well?

Russ brought up the point of gun safety, which should always be first and foremost regardless if you're chasing a squirrel, quail, elephant, etc.

Let's do this then, Will, if it is ok to carry a loaded weapon hung over your shoulder with a muzzle pointing to the back of someone's head who is awalking in front of you, regardless of who that someone is i.e. tracker, PH, hunting buddy, etc., how about you and I go hunting and I'll walk behind you with my loaded muzzle pointed at your head, and we'll see just exactly how much you like it.

Graybird, you need to read a little closer for comprehention! The PH carry does not point at anyone, fore or aft, but at a 40 to 45 deg angle to the right, or left, depending on the side it is carried on. This places the muzzlesin the hamd, pointed out into the bush, and the triggers behind the carrier's head, avoiding brush, better than carrying by one's side.

In the final analysis, no method of carry, or safety device is more dangerous than the idiot carrying the rifle! And all carries are safe if the person carrying is a safe gun handler! Done properly all carry methods are as safe as all others! I carry a combination of methods, but I always know where my rifle is pointing, so you carry your way, and I'll carry mine. In 66 yrs of hunting alone, and with other people,since the age of 6 yrs old, I have never had a accidental discharge, or needed to be told where to point my rifle!

THAT'S the key thing, always knowing where that muzzle is pointing. If you do that it doesn't matter if you drag the rifle behind you in a little red wagon; if you don't no carry is safe.

Being safety concious costs nothing, but failing to can be damned expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Graybird, you need to read a little closer for comprehention! The PH carry does not point at anyone, fore or aft, but at a 40 to 45 deg angle to the right, or left, depending on the side it is carried on. This places the muzzlesin the hamd, pointed out into the bush, and the triggers behind the carrier's head, avoiding brush, better than carrying by one's side.

I comprehended everything you stated!!!!! (and I'm well educated and can read well, too); however, if you think that every muzzle is always pointed at 40-45 degree angle 100% of the time, then I think you're mistaken. I'm sure that within a typical hunting day the muzzle will flash across the guy in front, or the guy behind, if turning around to talk a couple of times. I've been on safari, I've hunted for almost 30 years, I know how guns are carried and how incorrectly they are carried, too.

My simple statement was for the worthless, needless bullshit that Will decided to enlighten us with.

It all comes down to gun safety, regardless of method of carry, and not some crap about carbon monoxide, global warming, starving babies, or the other ridiculous crap that a pompous smartass tried to use, while making some ridiculous point.

Do I throw a gun over my shoulder in the "African Carry" method? You betcha, but only if there isn't someone in front of me. Besides, when I took the Hunter Safety Education course, I don't ever remember that the "African Carry" method was an acceptable method of carrying a firearm when/if someone is in front of you. But, of course, I took that course some 25, or so, years ago, and I'm sure I could have forgotten that acceptable method, since I've slept since then, but I doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
In the final analysis, no method of carry, or safety device is more dangerous than the idiot carrying the rifle! And all carries are safe if the person carrying is a safe gun handler! Done properly all carry methods are as safe as all others!

You are spot on about this, if done properly.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I carry a combination of methods, but I always know where my rifle is pointing, so you carry your way, and I'll carry mine. In 66 yrs of hunting alone, and with other people,since the age of 6 yrs old, I have never had a accidental discharge, or needed to be told where to point my rifle!

Maybe you don't need to be told but others do. Read the latest African Sporting Gazette pgs 10 & 11. Try telling him I've never had an AD in 66 years of hunting to that PH, and see if you don't still get a refresher on gun safety. So, roll your eyes all you want, but there might be folks in the field that are not as good as you!! And, he might be standing behind you!

quote:

Besides, when I took the Hunter Safety Education course, I don't ever remember that the "African Carry" method was an acceptable method of carrying a firearm when/if someone is in front of you. But, of course, I took that course some 25, or so, years ago, and I'm sure I could have forgotten that acceptable method, since I've slept since then, but I doubt it.

In June, I sat through hunter safety here in Oregon with my 12 year-old son who was taking the course. African carry was NOT on the list of recommended carries. The recommended carries were over the shoulder (shoulder arms in mil terms), sling over the shoulder, cradle carry (like a baby), side (under the armpit), trail (one handed muzzle-down), and ready (port arms). Any student who "painted" another with the muzzle was severely reprimanded in front of the entire group.

One other point: if you observe a hunter from a distance on a sunny day, you will see the sun flashing off his rifle long before you see him. Shoulder or sling carry are the worst for this. I would think AC is pretty bad as well. The one (and only) carry that avoids this is the rifle slung upside down over the shoulder. I carry my Valmet this way over the right shoulder, trigger guard forward and the index and second finger of my right hand around the end of the forend. Thus my right arm takes part of the weight. And this way the trigger is protected between my forearm and the stock. The bbls are not in the sun so no telltale flashing. This works because the bbls on this (break action O/U) gun are short enough to keep them well up off the ground. It also works with a bolt rifle if the bbl is real short (less than 24"). It won't work as well with a sxs as you can't get your fingers around the forend tip. I don't mind having a sling on the rifle.... in fact I use it when shooting, even offhand and esp. when kneeling. When set up for arm through and around use, the sling is just the right length for inverted shoulder carry. I will teach my son this way as the best way.

On a related topic, we hunt guinea fowl using group tactics. This quite often has hunters facing each other with the birds in between. In these circumstances, we follow two rules: muzzle to the sky at all times when the gun is not broken, and blue sky shooting only (there must be blue sky all around the bird). This way, you don't paint the other guy when bringing the gun to your shoulder, and you don't shoot the other guy behind the bush.

The argument that we are all going to die anyway so we should have some fun while we can is spurious. Nobody is saying you can't hunt or live your life. We are just suggesting that all armed parties carry their firearms in such a way that you (or your PH) doesn't end the fun by having to deal with a dead or wounded human in the bush.

It's also silly to say you are more likely to get killed by a buffalo than be shot by the PH. Probabilities are additive in the case where there are alternative paths to an outcome. If you take too many chances on a lot of long shot ways to get killed, your probability of ending up face down in your own blood becomes fairly high.

I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair (or to lose my life before my time) because someone else thinks it's sissy to be safe. I am with the poster who said that if accidentally shot, he hopes he lives long enough to take out the asshole who shot him.

It really does not matter in what manner you carry your rifle.

African carry, slung muzzle up, slung muzzle down, high ready, low ready, in you hand at your side, or what ever other name you call it.

It does not matter ONE BIT.


In the course of walking, running, climbing, falling down, as long as your muzzle does not cross another person, or piece if vital equipment, like the "engine" of your helicopter, or the bottom of the boat, then it is acceptable.

No one method is inheriently safer than another, given the different positions of your body moving and twisting around depending on the terrain.

Where the muzzle is pointing IS the important thing.

I actually find African Carry one of the safest ones for me to use, when hunting with other people, as the muzzle of my rifle is always in my vision, ie I am always aware of where it is pointing, as I walk, run, bob and weave through the bush, whether in Zimbabwe Idaho or Texas.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
It really does not matter in what manner you carry your rifle.

African carry, slung muzzle up, slung muzzle down, high ready, low ready, in you hand at your side, or what ever other name you call it.

It does not matter ONE BIT.


In the course of walking, running, climbing, falling down, as long as your muzzle does not cross another person, or piece if vital equipment, like the "engine" of your helicopter, or the bottom of the boat, then it is acceptable.

No one method is inheriently safer than another, given the different positions of your body moving and twisting around depending on the terrain.

Where the muzzle is pointing IS the important thing.

I actually find African Carry one of the safest ones for me to use, when hunting with other people, as the muzzle of my rifle is always in my vision, ie I am always aware of where it is pointing, as I walk, run, bob and weave through the bush, whether in Zimbabwe Idaho or Texas.

That's the most sensible comment on this entire thread....