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If we judge by the poll taken about best all-around African caliber the .375 H&H looks like the winner. What's the best ALL AROUND double gun caliber? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | ||
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.470 NE, for many reasons of effectiveness and practicality. If not for the tricks of politics and history, it would have been .450 NE, and in the best of all possible worlds, it would have been the .450 NE No.2, 3-1/2", IMHO. | |||
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I suppose the .375 HH is the best all around African caliber for the following reasons (and others): 1. Enough punch and penetration to kill the largest game. 2. Low enough recoil that anyone can shoot it accurately. 3. Flat enough trajectory for 300 yard shots at plains game in open country. 4. Universal ammo availability.
Doubles by definition are highly specialized tools. I doubt that there is an all around double, so there really would not be an all around double cartridge either. But if we narrow the inquiry to the best all around double cartridge for the traditional task of a double (dangerous game at close quarters), then I would vote for the 470 NE for the following reasons: 1. Enough power and penetration to take down elephant on a frontal brain shot. 2. The rifle can be made light enough to carry over long distances in hot weather. 3. Relatively good ammo availability compared to other double calibers. However one time in Zim I saw a box of .470 ammo at the gun store. They wanted US$50 per round, or US$1000 for the box of 20. YIKES!!! | |||
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400 J or the 450/400 3 1/4. All around means more than just Elephant or Buffalo, which the 400 will handle anyway. | |||
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470 | |||
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470 would be my choice. | |||
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500/465!!  , I forgot the cartridges aren't that popular at the store.Minkman | |||
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If all of you agree that the 375 is the best all around and not a 458 .... why is that all of you choose the 470 NE?? A 458 is a very specific cartdrige (the same that the 470), mostly used for dangerous game animals, not for "all around" hunting.... The idea of a double rifle is to have two quick shots, this doesn't mean that they necessary have to be done against a dangerous animal charging us. So following your line of making decisions (the 375 is the best all around), I think the best all around double must be a 9,3x74. Enough gun for all around game in different countries/continents and with enough power to tackle the occasional DG animal that can appear in front of us. With premium bullets going from 250 to 320 grains it give us a much more real "all around" caliber/rifle combo Remember we are hunting, not backing up hunters.... L | |||
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Lorenzo, I did not consider a 9.3 double because I do not consider a double to be an all around gun. At least I would not wish to use one as such. | |||
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Good point. A pity because I was very happy with my answer and you screw it with just some common sense   L | |||
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"-What's the best ALL AROUND double gun caliber?" Hmmmmmmm, Probably a SbS in .333 Jeffey flanged  Husky | |||
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500/416. peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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9,3X65R or 450 3 1/4" NE  Cheers / JOHAN | ||
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Russian 45-70!!!! Just kidding... I'd vote for a 9.3x74r double for "all arround" could get by on just about everything under 150m with one. Before all else, be armed. Machiavelli | |||
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If you consider that you want to be able to hunt DG and you handload I'll go for the 470. I would have said 375 Flanged until about 2 months ago when I discovered that you could launch 400gn 458 paper patched projectiles at 2250-2300 with the same accuracy and to the same POI as 500gn loads. With iron sights trajectory isn't a big issue for me - 125 yards is about as far as I want to shoot. I've tried three scoped doubles and none regulated with both scope and iron sights. But, if you could find one that did (? by adding weight attached by the QD mount bases to the top of the receiver) I'd go for the 375 Flanged Mag again, or 500/416. | |||
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From a pure accesability stand point and compenent availability the .470 wins hands down. I've shot plains game with mine at over 200 yards on several occasions. While admittadly not the best tool for that job it can be pressed into service and is far more effective at range than most who haven't tried it would think. However I'd have to say that given my druthers and an unlimited bank account I'd have a really nice 450-400 or a 375NE Flanged to go along with my .470. From a balistic stand point I'd have to give the most versitile title to the 450-400. | |||
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Good idea johan! I like the 9,3x65r as well, never fired it.I only got a dummy... Did you see the Husqvarna made 450 3 1/4" N. E. barrell set for a Thomas Bland SbS shootgun in the newest issue of Vapentidningen? I can't wait to read the article about this gun/rifle.. Talked to Tommys Vapenverkstad last week (Tommy is the last bloke that worked at Husqvarna gun department still in buisness. When I told him about the barrell set, his only comment was that: "-Well Husqvarna made what the customers wanted. Don't be suprised if you find more big Nitro caliber barrell sets made by Husqvarna". Husky | |||
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How about a Blaser S-2 Safari with three barrel sets. 30-06 (or 30Blaser), 375 H&H, NE 500 NE | |||
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D99, With that equipment in the hunting car (shooting brake) my Land Rover doesn't need any jackscrew  Husky | |||
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Which barrel would work best for jacking up the Rover? The stock might be good for uneven ground, but on the roadside I'd use the action.  Minkman | |||
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All around I like the 12 ga best. If there are more funds then a drilling is the best all around gun. In a previous thread I was informed that double rifles are popular in Europe for driven game. As to a DGR rifle double I leave that to others except to comment that one application might be Brown bears and I don't know if I would take a break open gun there. Finally that Russian 45-70 seems to be on some minds is it not? Just having some fun with your topic. I hope you don't mind. Join the NRA | |||
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9,3x74r...remember we are talking all aorund...and since we are talking all around it should be an over and under...and with a detachbale scope... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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In this context, does 'GUT JAGT' mean 'It's time to barf'? | |||
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If you prefer an older tradional double then a 470. If you consider a modern gun, the 500/416 makes all the sense in the world! | |||
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Minkman, I have just read the German version of the Blaser manual. The manual clearly recommends to use as you write the stock ONLY on uneven ground. BUT only after having washed the linseed oil off the stock very carefully. Else there are a major risk that the jackscrew will slip  Husky | |||
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Love the 500/416 | |||
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.500/.416 for me too. Versatility of a .400 but range of .416 bullets. | |||
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And I thought you were a traditionalist.  | |||
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Based on 24 years of using it i would say the .470 is the best balance between recoil,penetration,and stopping ability.It recoils less than hot .416 & .458 (Lott) loads,penetrates better than the .416 group, and has more than ample stopping power. If it were not for it i probably would not be here drinking tea and enjoying life. charlie | |||
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Such a rifle would probably need to be an O/U with a detachable scope rig regulated to the top bbl. The ammo would need to have spitzer bullets available and shoot them at 2400 fps or more with sufficient SD to be effective on plains game at 300 yards. | |||
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After using 3 different doubles for the past 7 years or so [a 450 No2, 450/400 3 1/4", and a scoped 9,3x74R, around 50% or so of the game taken with the 9,3 has been with iron sights], using them in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Canada, and Zimbabwe, taking game from squirrel to elephant, I have an opinion on the subject. For non African use, The scoped 9,3x74R is the best choice. For Africa IF I was going to shoot a lot of elephants something in the 450/470 group, with the ammo avialibility of 470 giving it a slight edge. Howefer for "All Round Use" the 450/400 [3" or 3 1/4"] is the best choice IMHO. It is Powerful enough for buff, hippo and elephants, lion and the great bears, with less recoil and less gun weight than the 450/470 group. With 300 grain bullets it does a great job on deer sized game, subject to the limitations of iron sights. If I could only have one hunting rifle, it would be a 450/400 Double rifle with a scope in QD mounts. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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470 | |||
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Haveing owned, and hunted with almost every caliber that comes in double rifles at one time or another, my choice would be a 9.5 lb S/S double rifle chambered for 450/400NE 3"! The 470NE is a fine round, but wouldn't even exist if the laws had remained in place, in 1905, for the .450s to be legal in Sudan, and India! The 470NE will do nothing better than the verious .450s, and must be made heavier. It's popularity is simply that the ammo is available over the counter, or SOME counters, if you have a large bank ballance! The fact that most who shoot doubles will use handloads anyway, the 450/400NE 3" is no more trouble to load than the 470NE, and is considerably cheaper to load. The 450/400NE 3" will handle elephant on a frontal brain shot, as well as the 450, 470s will, and is much easier to carry, and shoot well, and is capable of very good accuracy at 200 yds, once you learn the rifle! In North America, it is very well suited to large bear, and things like moose,and works like a charm on deer. Mark me down for a nice 9.5 lb S/S double rifle chambered for the 450/400NE 3" ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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This is my choice. Alex Henry 450/400 3 1/4 . 1.5x5 leupold with claw mounts  | |||
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Mickey Nice rifle. Did you find that the addition of the scope changes the regulation as some people have suggested? What loads do you use? Have you tried any 300 grain bullets? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The rifle shoots the same w/wo the scope. The problem w/ scope is the Leupold is too short and thus needs to be too far forward for me. I am looking for a longer scope or one with better eye relief. Rifle: Alex Henry Bullet: 400 grain Woodleigh Charge: 81 grains IMR 4831 Primer: Federal 215 Velocity: 2125 fps Group: 1/2" @ 50 yards  Never tried 300 grain bullets but I have been thinking of it from your posts. | |||
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Mickey If you shoot that rifle at 100 yards with the scope, and without the scope, what sort of difference in group size do you get? Just interested from an educational point of view. | |||
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since I own one, I vote for the 450/400 3 inch. One of the sweet 40s. Nice long good penetrating, .408 caliber, 400 grn. bullet. It's easy enough to carry all day, shoot lots of small game and big enough for whatever pops up. | |||
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Mickey, Finding a scope with more eye relief than a Leupold is not going to be easy. Anyone know of scope with more than a Leupold? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I would argue until hell freezes over the 416 Rem in a better all around caliber than the .375 H&H, even on paper it is superior in every way and definately in the field...I will always own a 375 if for no other reason than nostalgia and my inability to part with old friends... As to a double rifle, if one can handle the recoil the .470 is the better choice IMO..It is the best of both worlds...albiet I have always had a sweet spot in my heart for the lovely 450-400 in both 3" and 3-1/4", but for elephant it could be a bit on the light side under severe circumstances... I have not used or even seen a 416-500 but it does peak my interrest...I would have to shoot the 416-500 and compare recoil with the .470 to come to a decision on this one..If the recoil was considerably lighter than the .470, I think it would be my new best friend.... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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