Jorge,
I do not always agree with you but respect your "takes" on things. However, I agree with your quote below -

quote:

M-16: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that not ALL outfitters are painted with the same brush.I obvioulsy overestimated the capacity of some to comprehend that statement.

My 2 cents on this is not a matter of who has the most money to hunt or who has access or who uses guides. I am on both sides of the fence. I love to hunt without a guide, but unfortunately Alaska, Canada, Africa and Wyoming require guides (Wyoming if you hunt in a wilderness area). In OK I hunt public land and have been successful many times on deer and special draw deer.

My point is that after having been to Africa and the US west, I prefer Africa for the reasons I noted. The cost is higher, so I do not hunt the US anymore and save for Africa.

Further, my two experiences in Africa were not the Texas style of spot and stalk. It was all stalking while using vehicles to get to the area and get the game out.

M16 - the best take you had was on leopard hunting. I had not looked at it like Texas deer hunting - bait and shoot. However, leopard requires more in terms of being the right place, placing baits, building the temporary blind, etc. Plus, a wounded deer likely will not try to rip your guts out if you don't kill him cleanly.

Whatever, to each his own.

JJ; My return freight and taxi expenses are significantly greater than what I see posted here. I paid $ 2600 to get shipments from Botswana to SA and the to USA. We are not talking mounts, but hides and horns. And that was after challening a number of fees to the end that I toldt hem to put it in the trash, before the price got reasonable. The folks in Africa think we print money. I will take a much greater interest up front how this will be handled before I go on my next African trip.

7 Animals on the wall, total non hunting cost is about $ 8,100. Something wrong with that picture.

I used to think that the prices for guided hunts in the US were really high too. Then I started thinking about:

1. The length of hunting season in which a guide/outfitter has to make his money
2. The cost of insurance that they're required to pay
3. Cost of renting stock, getting weed-free hay, set-up time and support staff (wrangler, cook, etc)
4. licensing and training costs
5. Time spent scouting and preparing campsites

I finally realized that $6000 for a 7 day wilderness elk hunt is a bargin compared to what it would cost me to do it myself. The guys in the US have much higher costs than just about anyone in the world, especially given the abundance of lawyers and government officials we have in this country. From the standpoint of how many pounds of animals you can kill per dollar, hunting anywhere outside of the US is going to win out, but don't think the guys in the US are making a fortune off guiding hunts.

Pete

quote:

Further, my two experiences in Africa were not the Texas style of spot and stalk. It was all stalking while using vehicles to get to the area and get the game out.

This is the part that I don't understand. Having guided in Texas the last ten years or so I can tell you that as the client you can hunt anyway that makes you happy as long as it is legal and ethical. It would help to convey this to the outfitter before booking the hunt. Sitting in a blind is boring as hell to me. Book a hunt before or during the rut. Nothing is more fun to me than rattling in a big buck on a cold morning with steam coming out of his nostrils and his eyes bugged out. Some people want to hunt while others want to shoot. The client should make that choice.

quote:

Whatever, to each his own.

I couldn't agree with you more. You don't need to justify how or where you hunt to anybody but the fellow in the mirror.

There is just something about hunting Africa, it spoils you, it changes your attitude about hunting, and you just have to go back. For me at least, hunting in the US just did not equal the African experience. I am pretty much a trophy hunter, not a meat hunter, and that requires hunting in areas that have trophy quality animals. In the states, you will pay dearly for access to those areas - good example would be White Mountain Apache for elk. It doesn't come cheap. I can do an African hunt for less. Quality trophy hunting in the US is being priced out for more working people than African hunting in my opinion. I would rather hunt elephant than a 200+ Boone and Crockett whitetail, and the cost is not that much different. Hunting on public land in Texas is a good opportunity to get yourself shot!

My pet peeve is the "recommended" staff tip. This seems to be endemic to Tanzania. On my last trip the recommended staff tip for a 14 day hunt was 1600 bucks. That is ridiculous. If you have to tell a client what the staff tip should be, then put in the daily rate.

Africa is a good deal, but let's face it: an Alaskan brown bear is a better trophy than an average Cape buffalo. After you have a trophy room with 30+ heads, quality becomes more important than pulling the trigger. Some of my best trophies are from Africa, but some of the best are from do it yourself hunts that I know some out shape rich guy could never do.

Anyone nickel and diming on a plains game hunt ought to back off, save up a bit more, wait a little longer, and then be able to afford what is still and far and away the best bargain in hunting anywhere on earth.

AnotherAZWriter, I have to agree with the brown bear analogy. I have been a guide in AK and in RSA that has hunted Buffalo in Zim and RSA as well. I cannot think of almost any trophy in Africa that compares to a brown bear hunt.

I prefer the work in Africa by a margin because I have a big staff and a lot of help. The weather is so much better and the work usually far more relaxing for me. As far as the actual feeling of the hunt and the accomplishment of the event the brown bear is still at the very apex of big game hunting for me. I have just never experienced so much thrill and excitment in any other hunting experience, and I was not the hunter! I have hunted in Zim with lions around us and that experience was similiar but just not like those Big Brownies. Maybe if the lions weighed 1000 pounds it would be different?

Brownies have taken an average of 3 shots per hunter through my career there. Many took plenty and just seemed to keep coming. Some fell dead at the shot but that was by far the exception and ususally due to a really bad fist shot which hit the spine.

In anycase I don't want to Hijack my own thread here but I also agree that the 10-14 day brown bear hunt is in my opinion (by a margin) the most intense and exciting hunt on earth today.

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:
In anycase I don't want to Hijack my own thread here but I also agree that the 10-14 day brown bear hunt is in my opinion (by a margin) the most intense and exciting hunt on earth today.

Hack: Although I've never been brown bear hunting, I certainly can't dispute that statement, but I suspect it's pretty accurate, although a lion at least to me, commands more respect. I must admit I did not articulate very well when a said "lousy bear hunt" as I was refering to the fact that it was only one animal (but WHAT an animal!) when compared to a multi-bag plains hunt.

I would dearly love to "do it yourself' or with a couple of buds and go up river in the yukon and hunt mosoe, bear, etc. That's just not going to happen nowadays for the reasons you stated. But I have done the Texas where BTW, there is little or no public land (so much for doing it yourself there too unless you have land or get permission)and rattled bucks in. Exciting to be sure, but without reservation it doesn't even come close to hunting africa.

Dogcat: I appreciate your candor. there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. I personally detest forum pissing constests, but by the same token one has to draw the line and respond in kind when the gauntlet is thrown down! jorge

JJ:

My point is that in Africa you basically have one or two "glory" species and the rest is gravy. So in that context, 10K for a big Alaska moose is not a lot of money. In fact, for 17k you could do a combo moose/sheep hunt in the Yukon, about the same as a buff/leopard hunt.

The draw of Africa to many is the fact that you pull the trigger a lot. At first, pulling the trigger is fun, but after a while you realize just shooting average hartebeeste, average topi, average impala, etc. is kind of boring.

On my last hunt I was after primarily sable and buffalo, and to try and get good heads of both, I hunted them almost to the exclusion of the other stuff on license, which was everything. Even to get a really good kudu, you have to look at a lot of heads AND be lucky. I find being a bit selective more fun than just pulling the trigger.

I book for a number of companies in So. Africa for plainsgome, and some of them are cheaper today than they were 5 years ago...Bushveld Safaris is $150 per day plus trophy fees and Pierre Van Tonder is $250 1x1 and $210 2x1, so I see the amount of competition in the hunting industry in RSA as a means of holding the pricing down.....

I also book hunts in Zimbabwe where prices have gone down simply because of the political atmosphere and risk involved in hunting there...

today I see Tanzania as the best place for the short buffalo hunts, its safe and cheap, but I don't expect that to last long as the country is being flooded with PH from Zim and hunters not wanting to risk Zimbabwe and not wanting to pay the ridiculas costs of RSA Buff...The Tanzania gov. in all their greed will figure this out plenty quick is my take.

Almostacowboy,

If you think $15K for a a decent elk hunt, $25K for a Polar Bear hunt, $25K for a Stone sheep hunt is fair then your obviously in a different tax bracket than I am. I think $3000 for a whitetail hunt in Canada is fair, a $15K whitail in texas is larceny.

IMHO today the best NA hunt for the $ is a caribou trip to northern Quebec ( non migratory ) you are able to harvest 2 bulls, be in an extremly remote section of the world, have a beautiful mount an spend around $3500.
Also IMHO most of Africa's DG hunting is way over priced lion $100 K or more is insane, elephant hunting today for bulls that 75 yrs ago were not given a second glance, etc. I do feel a good PG hunt for 5 or 6 large animals for $6K is still a good buy for 10-14 days.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:

quote:

I know it's a market issue. Accordingly, in *my* opinion and in case you didn't notice that is what these forums are for TO OPINE, one has to be in some kind of mental stupor to pay that much for an elk, regardless of who is laughing all the way to the bank. jorge

Opine all you want but expect to be corrected. I would suggest you learn how to hunt on your own and not have to hire a guide. Draw a tag and hunt on public land. Quite inexpensive when compared to a plains game hunt.

But not in Texas. If you want to berate others that is fine. The fact remains that African hunting is still a better deal than an average hunt for Texas whitetail. The last show I went to the folks in Texas were selling bucks by the point. As you said everyone is entitled to his opine and yours isn't worth any more than mine or anyone else on the forum irrespective of the facts.

speaking of Texas... I quit going to a ranch I hunted for 15 yrs because of the throphy fee structure. It was a flat $2300 for any buck you choose to kill same if you didn't kill one. Now the basic hunt fee is $2500 that is for a buck up to 125 pts B&C add another 1k for 126-135-top that with another 1k 136-140 then $500 per inch over 141...what do these people think ??? That we are now shopping or hunting...where will it lead us??? into internet purchases or a spin off of Ebay like Ehorn?

Well, prices go up and up. If I told you what a friend of my dad's paid for a 60 day hunt in Kenya in the late 50's where he got the big 5 and countless other species you'd realise we're all born a bit too late. Got a 90# elephant and was a bit disappointed as he wanted a 100 pounder.

one reason prices go up is people pay them. Take a look at Alaska back in the 70s it was way out of line for a guided hunt there. Hunters went elseswhere today "most" hunts aree inl ine with the rest of the lower 48 if you stay away from sheep.

I am planning my first trip to Africa with my son in 2007. Not only will it be our first trip to Africa, it will beour first guided hunt period. I live in Alberta, we have good hunting here, we are basically meat hunters. We live a few hours north of the really good areas, my son is in school and has a parttime job so he hunts maybe 4-7 days each fall, I hunt a few days more. It probably costs us with tags, gas, hotels, meals, all the money I spend on the range and quads etc abotu 3-4000 each year. With that we kill a few whitetails, we try for moose maybe every other year, last year we tried for elk for the first time ourselves on crwon land(we were unsuccesful).
For us a hunt to Africa is a once in a lifetime thing. Using JJ's pricing, $10k US for my son and I to hunt for 10 days, $5500 cdn for airfare, $1000 US shipping, 5-600 US dip & crate, $500 US tip, $1,000 misc. We can't take our own guns through the US so we have either fly via europe or rent guns, if we fly via europe it will take us 3 days each way from Ft McMurray to Jburg. If we take a side trip add another grand at least. When the trophies get home, my thoughts were we would each get one shoulder mount and maybe one european mount each, this will likely cost about $3500 cdn. it brings my total cost to $24,000 cdn for a 16-18 day trip for me and my son that my WIFE and DAUGHTER don't get to share. My wife and I do well financially, but that is a huge amount of money for something that is really purely about fun. My wife and daughter are supportive of our hunting, but think of the family vacation you could have for $24k(10 days in Maui last year ran us all in about $15k cdn).
I think guided hunts in general are an endeavor for the well off, even a few years ago I could never have been able to justify it to myself, let alone my wife.

I can see a few good reasons for a guided hunt in N america. Some places/species you have no choice. To get a guaranteed tag .To do a type of hunt for which you dont have the equipment (horses, float trip).To learn from someone who knows.So someone else can take care of all the litle details so you can concentrate on your hunt. But I feel way too many are neglecting the most enjoyable part.. no not the satisfaction of doing it yourself although that is a big plus. The thing they are missing is the time spent to learn the game, the real challenge lies in working to become knowledgable about the animal, the paticular area, all the things that will in the end turn you into a real hunter. I also think this is getting worse and worse. Most probably because of the overblown focusing on trophy size and defining a successful hunt by the animals killed. I had a few days in dec to hunt elk (bow) and by this time those guys have been hunted for 3+ months and it is not a high percentage type hunt but I spent my time hiking in knee deep snow all day, only met one other hunter while in the woods and saw elk every day though none close enough for a shot. It was a great hunt, had the time of my life, brought back a lot of wonderfull memories of trapping marten+cats in the mountains around my house.I know this was a bit off subject but sometimes it seems like no one wants to actually hunt themselves anymore + I'll tell ya you are selling yourself short. Not a comparison of Africa/N am but an alternative to the dillema

The high price of hunts is what started me on reloading.If I had 5000 dollars to spend each year I would spend 3000 on shooting and 2000 on hunting.If I had 20000 to spend each year I would buy myself some land I could fish,hunt,and build a small shooting range on.