It is my opinion that even though one does not reccognize the danger, in no way means it does not exist!

" A tip on follow up"

" I suppose the principal ambition of every visiting sportsman, and hunter, setting foot in Africa, is to shoot a good lion. It is customary for a wealthy sportsman to retain at least one profesional hunter, part of whose job is to see that his patron does not get hurt. So that in case of a lion being wounded,and takeing refuge in a difficult place, he will generally do his best to dissuade the visitor from following up, and suggest he return to camp. Personally, I should feel it pretty galling if I was in the place of that visitor, and had a good rifle in my hands."

"There is no question about the risk you are running when following a wounded lion into thick scrub,reeds, or long grass, but where would the attraction be, in big game hunting,if there was no risk attached to it? I use the African interpretation of the expression "BIG GAME" which implies dangerous game. I can appreciate the hunting of any game animal which tests my bushcraft, but if there is no risk attached to shooting of lions, there would be no more thrill, in it, than there is in the shooting of a Zebra."

These are not my words, but those of one of the most experienced hunters of BIG GAME in Africa, that ever lived. He was not a one time expert,as our recent expert is, or one who had a stake in the declareing of game to be dangerous, to attract clients, as that expert would suggest, but simply a man who had the knowledge, and experience to say what he does with, the authority that only comes from being there, and doing it! His name was John (Pondoro) Taylor, , and the above quotes were taken from page 394 of his book African Rifles, And Cartridges! Now my question to the rank, and file here is, which do you think knows more about the Danger posed by the big five in Africa, Taylor, or a one Safari expert?

Yo MacD--I doubt that the EXPERT in question would even deign to lower himself to read stuff like that as he knows it all.

But Mac, according to the "expert" they cant be dangerous because if someone who is overweight (me) can hunt them...TO each their own. IF it makes him feel better to think so that is ok with me. He can even throw a few barbs my way and Ill just shine it on. The truth is still the truth regardless of personal opinion.

Great response!

Please don't misunderstand me! I'm not putting our expert down, but actually feel a little sorry for him. I think the man was cheated out of the best hunt he could have attended, simply because he did not reccognize the possition he was in while following up that wounded Buffalo. He is like the guy who is afraid to fly on a commercial airliner, yet is quite content to ride a taxi on the freeway to the airport without a thought to his safety on the road. He actually is in 50 times more danger on that freeway, than in a commercial airliner. It is simply a matter of one's awareness, that makes the thrill! He still is not aware of the value he never realized he was getting, for his money!

Gentelmen, I have some experience with Cape Buffalo, and I can tell you, if I had no more respect, for Buffalo, than he does, I certainly would not spend the amount of money required to hunt them. I certainly hope, if he continues to hunt them, he gains some respect for their tenacity, before the Buffalo has a talk with him, or a member of his party, at close range! Believing as he does, his hunt must have been a total disappointment! SAD!

MacD37
Great, what does W.D.M. BELL say about the big game or dangerous game?

I have an suggestion
There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.
-Ernest Hemingway

Cheers
/ JOHAN

Bell was once treed by a herd of about a million buffalo. They scented him, charged, and the only cover in his position was a 5 inch around little tree, more like a bush, in the middle of a barren plain. Somehow the entire herd, which took 45 minutes to go by, missed hooking the tree with a horn, or bumping it hard enough to knock it over.

Just when he thought he was safe, the wind switched, and they came again, for another 45 minutes.

Buffalo WILL hunt down and kill young lions. They are smart enough to eliminate the problem early, when given the chance.

S

MacD37

Not at all, but if we shall go to the bottom of this we can't simply advice one source . Soo, what is wrong with 7X57 and mausers , I much rather prefer Bell than Joanne Taylor

/ JOHAN

Mac,
I dont know about Bells ethics, but Werner Von Alvensleben killed over a thousand buff with a 7x57 and his ethics were known to be second to none. Not my choice for buff either but shows you cant lump all the old/older small bore users together.

TSJ, you are quite correct about Alvensleben, and his Buffalo harvest, and I doubt he let many get away. So you are right about lumping all small rifle shooters together. However, Werner, shot Buffalo, and Bell shot Elephant, and Rhino with the little pipsqueek. It is true, as well, that the old locals shot thousands of everything with old 303 Brit rifles, but what they tell you about are their successes, and little is mentioned of their failures, or how many got away wounded, or how many locals got mauled, or killed, by the ones that didn't fall.

For some reason this string has turned a corner, and gone down into a neighborhood, that wasn't the destination we were headed to! The fact that someone, or even a lot of people shot everything with a 22 lr and got away with it, has nothing to do with the fact that Dangerous game in Africa, is DANGEROUS regardless of anyone's opinion.

Mac

There is no sense in talking (typing) to some of these issues.

It seems everyone that has read or heard that Bell (or whoever) shot a lot of his elephants with a 7x57 just come out of the woodwork. It is absolutely irrelevant. If these folks can shoot passing geese with a 7x57 like Bell did, then they have some credibility. Otherwise, it is just all talk.

I was peacefully sleeping until about a half hour ago, when I awoke from a recurring nightmare where another damn cow lephant was about to put the permanent hurt on me.

Dangerous game isn't my ass!

Hi All,

Thought I'd add this bit in light of the recent not dangerous - dangerous game thread.

The professional wildlife community over here is small and fairly close knit, first thing that was reported to me this morning was as follows:

Man hurt in elephant charge
July 29, 2003

A Johannesburg man is in an intensive-care unit after being attacked by an elephant at a game reserve.

Raul Canetti, his wife Bella and the game ranger driving their vehicle came under attack at the Madikwe Game Reserve in North West on Saturday.

Canetti and his wife were on an educational tour at the time of the incident. The North West Parks Board is investigating why the elephant ran amok.

According to an official, Canetti, who works for an Italian-South African tourism company, was in the vehicle when the attack took place.

The animal buffeted the vehicle at least twice, piercing the metal bodywork with its tusks and leaving a gaping hole in the driver's door. Unconfirmed reports suggest Canetti got out of the vehicle. The elephant then wounded him.

Canetti was flown to Milpark Hospital in Johannesburg, where he was said to be in a stable condition.

North West Parks Board chief executive Charles Ndabeni confirmed that an "elephant incident" had occurred at the game reserve.

He said a team of investigators had been sent to the area where the attack occurred and were looking at tracks to determine how and why the attack took place.

A statement would be released today, Ndabeni said.

Madikwe is a popular game reserve featuring luxury lodges and boasting 75 000 hectares of "big five" territory. It is stocked with 10 000 head of game from 27 different species.

Oh well another just "boring day in Africa" is what one of the cynics who works for me had to say ...

[ 07-29-2003, 10:17: Message edited by: Peter V ]

People seem to forget that the guys who got away with smallbores for massive numbers, and 'no PH backup' were world champions in their field.
Like a Pete Sampras in Tennis for example.

We are like a guy who buys a tennis racquet and plays maybe ten games in our entire lives.
Certainly not world champs just cause 'we own the same gear'.

Guys like John Taylor weren't just recording their experiences in print, they were trying to educate a novice audience as to the best choices etc.

Using Bell and the 7mm as a lesson on calibre choice for new guys, would be like saying "Sugar Ray Robinson could lick any normal guy with his left hand, so you guys should have no problem tying your right hand behind your back for your first fight"

Karl.

Ahh, you guys aren't giving the Bell's and the Corbett's their due. I am SURE they were brilliant shots, in fact, fantastic shots, with a great knowledge of the anatomy of the animals they hunted, and thier habits.

The cemetery is full of the less skilled hunters, less lucky hunters.

The guys that live to write the books, they are the guys who are BOTH LUCKY, and GOOD. To make it through, you have to live through the learning stages of hunting Africa, and I suspect that's a life or death sort of instruction, in particular at the time when the animals had little fear, and huge numbers.

Jim Corbett's forward to one of his books has a story about a 12 year old, out hunting birds with a 22 lr, rifle, who turns a corner, and is looking UP at a giant bengal male tiger. The tiger roared, and the boy ran off. That boy was Jim Corbett.

As he got older, and was around more tigers, he learned that particular roar was one of fun and humor for the tigers. Guess that tiger got a kick out of a young 12 year old human, with a tiny rifle...

If not for that tiger's humor, Corbett wouldn't have written anything...

s

Socrates,

I agree for the most part. The guys that lived to tell their tale had one or more near-death experiences. Just imagine all the guys that had death-experiences.

I think the only reason that more death-experiences do not occur today than back then, with dangerous game, is that there are at least three guns about: the client, the PH, and the game scout.

Will:
Plus a LOT less dangerous animals to walk into and get stomped by.

When's the last time anyone saw a herd of cape buffalo that took 45 minutes to charge by(even with the count everyone twice mentality of a good story teller?)?

I think animals might have been a bit bolder, as well. What about those lions that they made the movie about that killed a bunch of people? How about all the tigers, and leopards that Jim Corbett hunted down, after they killed 400-500 people each?

Didn't used to be an AK-47 in each house, and poachers behind every bush...

s

MacD37

I have to agree that those who think that there is not any dangerous game in Africa are wrong....Bror Blixen set of rifles for africa was a 450 double a 7mm or 8mm mauser and a sbs shotgun.

Small bores are not perfect for charging elephants etc.

I got nothing against Taylors ideas of rifles and thinks that the did a fantastic work, Imagine what an office he had

/ JOHAN

I've read a quote that Bell "Never let a softpoint bullet pollute the barrel of my 7mm." But he shot every species with solid bullets. He must have really been one to go for spine shots as a solid just doesn't seem proper for cats and plainsgame.

.

ALF

Do you have any information about the rifles Bell used that were built by Daniel Fraser in Scotland? I have seen a few Fraser's built on Mannlicher actions and they were really nice

I guess one of them were a 256 of some sort

Cheers
/ JOHAN