I am taking some extra ammo on my next trip for some friends in Botswana and I will be over the eleven pound limit. I will have two checked bags, one my guncase that will both be under 50 pounds. Has anyone out there ever had their ammo weighed by an airline?

The ammo will not match either rifle and I don't intend to declare it in Joburg. I have been through the SAPS office a dozen times and they have never bothered to look at my ammo. I will have a letter from this operation saying the ammo is for them as a fallback, but don't intend to show it unless Murphy shows up.

Has anyone ever had their ammo inspected in Joburg to make sure it matches the caliber of their rifles?

The only time I had anyone ask about the ammo that I was flying with was on a US flight. They just asked if I had more than 11 pounds. As far as they knew I didn't. I had 140 rounds of 308, 80 of 22-250, and 100 of 10mm. No one bothered to even look at the ammo when I went to Namibia, but then again I only took 60 rounds.

BBC,

I honestly think your taking an unecessary chance that could end in a cluster fuck. You admit you'll be over weight, your not declaring the ammo and the ammo does not match that caliber of the rifles you personally are bringing. Your asking for trouble.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
I will have a letter from this operation saying the ammo is for them as a fallback, but don't intend to show it unless Murphy shows up.

Has anyone ever had their ammo inspected in Joburg to make sure it matches the caliber of their rifles?

I have never had my headstamps checked to see if they match the rifle.

I don't know if I would bother with the letter from the operator(In fact I think it is a bad idea). If anyone notices that the ammo does not match a rifle you are going to lose it.(JMO)

*Food for thought*
I do happen to know a guy who flew to Namibia with three boxes of ammo for his 375 H&H. Upon arrival he opened one of the sealed Remington boxes and found that the cartridges were not 375 H&H. By some stroke of luck the cartridges happened to match an old cape gun that his PH had. The PH was pretty excited as he had never been able to find cartridges for the cape gun in the 40 years that he had owned it.

If customs or airport personnel had opened the sealed 375 H&H box and found that it did not contain 375 H&H cartridges, I am guessing that the hunter would have said, "What! That was a sealed box. They must have made a mistake at the factory. I have no use for them, could you please dispose of them for me?"

I've had my ammo weighed. Northwest Airlines Weighed it on the way to Tanzania once. And I had South African weigh it in Atlanta.

Last year by KLM in Dar.

I had my ammo weighed in Joberg last year after over nighting there. It was the SAA check in lady that weighed it and it was about 1 lb over weight. Luckily my guide hired through Gracy Travel put a word in for me and she let it slide with a warning to be more careful next time.

465H&H

I had my ammo weighed by United Airlines in St Louis International Airport. I was surprised but they did it.

I had my ammo weighed by NWA and they made me leave some at the ticket counter. What really hacked me off was that the airline didn't weigh it when I checked in but when my checked bag was x-rayed, the TSA agent thought I shouldn't be travelling with ammo. She sent me back to the ticket counter and that's when the agent weighed the ammo.

Never had it weighed but have been asked if it was under 11 lbs. Had the individual rounds headstamp inspected upon arrival in JNB some years ago.

Your idea for smuggling (that is what you're proposing) ammunition is not a good one. Please keep in mind that your actions may adversely affect every hunter who follows you. The letter will only serve to confirm you knowingly intended to break the law of a foreign country.

Thanks for the feedback and the reality check. I would most likely sail through without a problem, but if there is a problem then it will be a big problem. I think I will buy one of those cheap and light weight NEF single shot 45-70's and back off on the ammo weight a bit so I can stay legal.

I am asking not telling but doesnt the weight appl to just the ammo, not ammo and weapon?

SSR

My ammo was weighed by Delta.

I carried it in separate locked plastic foam padded pistol case. I needed separate case since it was in w rifle in a golf bag sort of rifle case.

I printed out a copy of airline regulations in case I ran into a hunting nazi.

The Delta agent was a hawaiian woman and was hunting freindly. The TSA was not.

I took ammo weight seriously enough to use new, lighter 450 Dakota brass over older heavier brass I really trusted. In a large bore it made a difference and kept me legal.

God bless hawaiian pig hunting ticket agents.

Andy

The weight restriction applies to the ammo only and incidentally is international law rather than airline regulation and I'd suggest that before you try to take more than the limit, you might like to consider why the limit is there in the first place and/or why the regulations state no two (or more) ammo consignments may be packed together?

The reason the regulations are there is for the safety of the aircraft, everyone aboard it and anyone on the ground it might fall onto. As just one example of what can happen when the rules get broken, you might like to do a Google on Valujet Everglades.

Probably also worth considering is that the EU already have a rule forbidding ammo on flights but currently waive that with regard to sporting ammo..... a few incidences of guys being caught deliberately flouting the rules (anywhere in the world) just might be enough to make them reconsider that waiver...... and such a change of mind, may not be only restricted to Europe!

Probably not the brightest idea in the world to discuss breaking international law in this regard on a public forum either.

My suggestion is to NEVER, EVER, try this sort of thing.

As has been mentioned above, you are not only exposing yourself to arrest in a foreign country, but your actions will reflect badly on all of us.

Recipe for disaster.

BBC, you've been warned. i sure as hell wouldn't do what you are suggesting. Like Mark and others have stated, recipe for disaster.


Mad Dog

our ammo is always weighed and caliber, stamps and no: of rounds checked on arrival at johannesburg or wherever we go.

I have been travelling for shooting at least twice this year and will travel another 2-3 times at least. cheers, TM

Everyday I drive along Interstate 70 at Mile Maker 42 going 30 mph over the posted speed limit. Should I call the Highway Patrol and ask if they ever have speed traps on that stretch of highway?

Or better yet, just call the airline and tell them you are carrying more than 5 kgs.

I had my ammo weighed by British Airlines in Los Angeles.

And, interestingly enough, I had it weighed when going from the international airport to the charter plane in Harare.

Regards, D. Nelson

Ok, already. Didn't you guys read my follow up post?

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
Thanks for the feedback and the reality check. I would most likely sail through without a problem, but if there is a problem then it will be a big problem. I think I will buy one of those cheap and light weight NEF single shot 45-70's and back off on the ammo weight a bit so I can stay legal.

Actually, it is not the airlines I am worried about on this.

It is the customs at the other end.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Everyday I drive along Interstate 70 at Mile Maker 42 going 30 mph over the posted speed limit. Should I call the Highway Patrol and ask if they ever have speed traps on that stretch of highway?

Mate, a better analogy might be would you be more careful of your speed if it were possible that the penalty could be in the region of something like a five figure fine and a number of years in chokey and possibly even the loss of several hundred lives?

I appreciate that's not very likely to happen but in this uncertain post 9/11 world in which we live, I'd say it's not completely impossible.

All that said, I reckon that BBC has made a sensible decision not to bother with it.

I agree with Mark Young. I have been checked here in the States, and had to leave some ammo at the airport. Thankfully, one of the counter girls allowed me to leave it in her locked locker. The guy here with TSA was an absolute prick; the only one I've ever had issue with. I have seen Jo'burg create hassles over ammo, so it's a gamble.
LDK

Just follow the rules. It makes life simple. Here is something to remember when figuring the weight of your ammo. I reload everything so I know the average weight of each round for each caliber. I figure out how many of each I can bring based on the combined weight then subtract the weight of the airline approved cartridge containers that I am using because the airline desk flunky will include that in the weight of your ammo.

So when I get weighed I open my locked ammo box and hand the airline person my MTM flip top ammo containers individually and have them weigh those. Do not hand the airline flunky big your locked container that holds all of your combined ammo. That is going to be overweight.

Just make sure that you are under or at weight with all of your ammo in it's individual containers. If my memory serves me I can carry 35, 500gr .470's and 40, 300 gr .375H&H's and still be on weight. Those MTM's cartridge holders are a bit heavy however, you could bring a few more rounds with factory cardboard boxes.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Everyday I drive along Interstate 70 at Mile Maker 42 going 30 mph over the posted speed limit. Should I call the Highway Patrol and ask if they ever have speed traps on that stretch of highway?

Will, what speed is that? 100 MPH!? Why are you going so fast?

With seven trips to Africa, I have never had my amo weighed.

quote:

Will, what speed is that? 100 MPH!? Why are you going so fast?

He's rushing from gun store to gun store trying to find a 7 lb .470 caliber single trigger double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The reason the regulations are there is for the safety of the aircraft, everyone aboard it and anyone on the ground it might fall onto. As just one example of what can happen when the rules get broken, you might like to do a Google on Valujet Everglades.

Just a couple of points of clarification:
1. The ValueJet crash was caused by used oxygen generators being carried by the airline in contravention of their own rules and NTSB rules.
2. If you have a cite for someone being injured or killed by sporting ammunition being carried in the cargo hold of a passenger plane, I'd like to know more about it.

For the OP, I'd say listen to the general advice being given and safe yourself a lot of potential grief. Even if you don't get caught, its going to cause unneccesary angst on what should be a fun trip over. If you do get caught (especially in the wrong place or by the wrong agency) you are going to feel like the biggest dumbass ever born.

Forrest,

you misunderstand my point. The Valuejet crash was caused (as most accidents are) by a series of errors not by one error alone. In that case, it was the oxygen generators were loaded 'live' AND right next to a spares pack. The heat and the oxygen from the live oxygen generators that went off, then set light to the tyres in the spares pack and the combined fire (fuel + oxygen + heat) bought the aircraft down. If the fuel in the form of the tyres in the spares pack were absent, there would have been far less fuel for the fire to feed on which would/could have slowed or possibly even extinguished the fire.

By exceeding the ammo limit or even by packing more than one ammo limit next to each other is one part of the series of errors that could possibly cause problems.

An example of how 3 innoculous items/errors can cause problems could be something like the load master of the aircraft making the mistake of loading one item that's classified as 'dangerous/flammable when wet' next to a consignment of frozen fish (for example). If the frozen consignment starts to melt and contaminates the other, it could cause a fire but the aircraft compartment and extinguishers (if fitted) could probably contain such a fire, at least for long enough for the aircraft to make an emergency landing.

Ammo, especially an excessive amount of it thrown into the mix could easily make the difference between landing and crashing.

And that's why I used the Valuejet incident as an example and it's also why the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods) Act prohibits more than 5 Kgs or ammo per passenger ans forbids ammo allowances to be combined.

As for other examples. I can think of at least 2 recent occasions where passengers in the US were prosecuted for ammo related offences on aircraft. One of which resulted in a bag exploding. (Thankfully on the ground). Then look at every unexplained crash from the Helderberg downwards (pardon the pun) and you have a number of possibilities.

Shakari

It was my impression thar that stupid 5k limit was an old reg dateing back to just after WW2 and was proposed as a limit on military movements and mercenaries. Put forward primarily by the British as they were losing control of former colonies.

I checked your safety thesis with 2 professional pilot friends and they do not agree at all. It makes no safety difference if I take 10k or I take 5 and you take 5.

Silly on the face of it and perpetuated by an anti-gun anti-hunting beaurocracy. Do not beleive that it is followed on US domestic flights.

Cordialy

SSR

It does indeed go back to WWII and we explain the history of the act as a whole on the shakariconnection website but I promise you mate, for every pilot you can produce who thinks larger amounts of ammo are equally safe, I can produce two risk assessors/loadmasters/pilots etc who believe more flammable material equals greater risk...... and logic and international law would suggest that to be the case.

Incidentally, the act wasn't introduced to restrict mercenary movements at all and logic would also confirm that a few Kgs of ammo is a few minutes supply to them. There is incidentally a ban on commercial airlines carrying any weapons of war whatsoever.

The act was introduced mainly to ensure a cargo couldn't leave one country with a legal cargo and find it was suddenly illegal in the country of arrival.

"Do not beleive that it is followed on US domestic flights."

Incorrect..



Firearms
Federal regulations require that firearms in checked baggage or in their own shipping cases be unloaded and declared. Firearms are not allowed in carry-on bags. Firearms in checked baggage must be packed in a locked hard-sided bag or gun case. A maximum of 11 lbs.. of small arms ammunition is allowed in checked luggage in the original manufacturer's box or securely packed in a fiber, wood or metal box to prevent movement of cartridges.

surestrike

Thanks I knew the packaging rules but did not know about the weight restriction. I have never been checked for weight, guess I was lucky

SSR

If you are just trying to get your friends some ammo,,, find a gun shop there and buy it for them there,, it will be cheaper in the long run. I was on a trip when a hunter tried to "sneak" in 2 boxes of shot gun shells just to save a few bucks. WOW! we all got checked inside and out,, plus we were all detained. They figured if one guy was illegal we all were untill proven otherwise. Cost a bunch in bribe money for the guy so we all could get past and on to our hunts, and I later find out this guy is financially loaded! We were PISSED! I could of killed the guy! Don't do it! Follow the laws and rules and regulations.

LAst summer ,, American,, and Quantas weighed and counted every shell,, checked the headstamps etc on our hunt. I didn't bring any ammo back,, that even caused problems, I told them i shot it all. I did all but 8 rounds so I left them with the Ph. Stay legal!

If your caught in Joberg with more than the allowed amount of ammo, wrong caliber etc., all you are doing is giving the worker there an excuse to ask you for a bribe.

465H&H