This year my wife and I spent 5 weeks hunting, fishing and sight seeing all over Namibia. We had a great time and really enjoyed staying at five different hunting and fishing lodges. This year at one lodge we noticed two problems, guides smoking and talking in German or Africans around their American clients. Most white Namibians speak very good English. To me this was uncomfortable and extremely rude! I know a lot of Namibians still smoke but my wife and I don't ! The last thing we want as a client is a guide smoking cigarettes in the car or at the dinner table!


Have any other hunters found this to be a problem?

Prior to leaving for Namibia (or any other country, for that matter), I would advise your outfitter that you do not smoke and that the only language you speak is English. Usually the guides will accomodate you by not smoking in your presence. If they still smoke in your presence you can just tell them that you will have to leave the vicinity until they are finished with their cigarettes because the smoke bothers you. Tell them how it is but tell them politely. They probably will be more mindful of your irritations the next time and excuse themselves from your presence. At restaurants - Namibia does not have the same "no smoking in public places" laws as we have in the U.S. I, too, am a non-smoker, and my guides and hosts have always been considerate enough to excuse themselves before lighting up.

As far as them speaking German or Afrikaans to each other - those are their Mother-tongues, just as yours is probably English. If they came to the U.S. to visit would you be accomodating and speak only German or Afrikaans to your friends if the guests were present or would you speak the language you are most comfortable with? When I'm in another country I do not expect those around me to speak English amongst themselves just because I do not understand their language.

I know not everybody feels the same but when I travel to another country and have the intention of staying more than a few days I make an effort to learn a few words and phrases of their language. A few phrases like "Good morning" (Guten Morgen in German, or Goeie more in Afrikaans) will warm your relationship with your guides. Also reading about their culture and history will help you to understand the way they do things in their country. To me, that is the most enjoyable part of travelling to other countries - to be surrounded by the differences in cultures, the sights, sounds, tastes, and smells that we cannot experience in our own.

Namibiahunter

All that being said, I do expect those intending to become a citizen and to reside and work in the U.S. to speak English as a first language.

Robert,
to be honest I have always tryed to look for some word that I previous read or listened, and this year I had occasion to hear the click language spoken by two trackers. I was really fashinated by this antique way of expression.

About smoke, Johan, the outfitter, do not smoke, neither Mabel, his wife or the other components of the family. Giuseppe, my hunting buddy, does not smoke, but I do. I smoke cigars, and they are very strong Italian cigars, Antico Toscano. But I smoked them only when I was in the backyard or on the bakkie, because I know that the smell of this old Italian speciality is not always appreciated. Too strong and acid.

If anyone of the equipe asked me to avoid to pollute , even if he were one of the trackers like Sakman or well I had stopped to moke until we were near on each other, but once alone I want to be free to smoke and pollute.

Smoking...I agree you have a good point. For guides of any type to smoke around non-smoking clients is unacceptable. In this day and age, including Southern Africa, smokers know they are on the weaker leg and typically oblige or at least should.

The language issue...you need to look at it contextually. There are times when it can be a bit awkward. Were you all sitting at the dinner table having a chat and they excluded you by switching language? - yes, that would be rude.

However if it was in casual space and you were not really part of their conversation, thats not rude at all. Its probably their first language... how do they speak to their hunting staff...in english? Probably not, and this is true in many cases while with clients.

When I guide internationally with SA friends we often talk Afrikaans around clients but only when we are busy with something not related to them directly or when we are holding their attention, otherwise I agree that would be rude, otherwise, no...if I hunted in Spain or Argentina I would no be offended in the english capable guides conversed with each other in Spanish when they felt it necessary, unless it was to purposfully exclude me from their conversation for example.

I don't smoke cigarettes, but smoking doesn't bother me. If it did, I would certainly say something about it. Nicely, of course.

Smoking is common in Africa, and you should not assume that people doing it in your presence are aware or have even thought about the possibility that you may not like it.

Being left out of conversations, on the other hand, is generally bothersome - but especially if the conversations take place in the field and have to do with the hunting - i.e., trophy judgment, planning a stalk, picking a spot for lunch, any of a number of things.

In those circumstances, if translation is not offered, I will ask for it on the spot. Usually one such request is all it takes.

Personally, I find it a bit arrogant to go to another country and demand that people not speak their mother tongue in their own country, regardless if you're paying the bill or not. It is a reasonable expectation to communicate with you in English, if that is your only language, but it is unreasonable to demand that they not speak in their own language with each other.

As far as smoking is concerned, neither my wife or I smoke, and furthermore my wife suffers from asthma. We try to avoid cigarette smoke whenever we can, but we also remember that most parts of the world have not discouraged smoking to the degree we have in North America. When cigarette smoke becomes a health issue due to my wife's asthma, we politely request a smoke free environment for her sake, and most nearby locals fall all over themselves to comply.

We are quick to demand that visitors and immigrants to our country comply with our customs and language in total and unconditionally. We would do well to bear that in mind when travelling.

All the whites only spoke English (they were So. African), except to translate, and only the other PH's wife was a chain smoker; she was considerate and walked outdoors. None of the blacks spoke any English; not the trackers, skinners or the women kitchen help.
The boys usually had a smoke at the noon meal and after supper, but they were always out of doors and in their communal area. This was in northern Namibia, about 30 miles south of Etosha park. I wasn't bothered in the least. As a matter of fact, I would have taken cigs along as gifts if I'd known how pervasive smoking was among the boys. They were amazingly fast at rolling their own! I have no idea if it even was tobacco.

I have to agree with wooly ess. I am a non-smoker and also have mild asthma, so having a lot of cigarette smoke around me is not pleasant; but on safari, i dont object to the PHs and guides smoking; they work so hard for me and do so much to make my hunt pleasant, i feel it would be ungracious of me to object to their smoking. Same with speaking in their mother tongue.
personally, I am HAPPY that there are places where political correctness is not pervasive, and people can do as they want! if I dont want to be around cigarette smoke, i dont have to go to namibia. If i do, i should have a thicker skin; most especially, i have to remember that the world really doesnt revolve around me!

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
All the whites only spoke English (they were So. African), except to translate, and only the other PH's wife was a chain smoker; she was considerate and walked outdoors. None of the blacks spoke any English; not the trackers, skinners or the women kitchen help.
The boys usually had a smoke at the noon meal and after supper, but they were always out of doors and in their communal area. This was in northern Namibia, about 30 miles south of Etosha park. I wasn't bothered in the least. As a matter of fact, I would have taken cigs along as gifts if I'd known how pervasive smoking was among the boys. They were amazingly fast at rolling their own! I have no idea if it even was tobacco.

I do not think it is necessarily a question of arrogance. When you are in a small group of people, all of whom have demonstrated excellent command of English, and they choose to speak a language you do not understand, you will likely feel intentionally left out and wonder what they are saying about you.

I heard one hunter tell a PH he would be sure to learn Afrikaans before his next trip so he could follow the conversation at dinner, to which the other PH replied "Then we will start speaking German."

I do not expect everyone to speak English when I travel, but it makes for a better experience when people try to include you. It is a service business and making sure the clients enjoy themselves may require the extra effort to ensure they are included.

Sir-


I know this may sound crazy and waaaay out of line but did you ask them, politely, to stop smoking and speak English?

Charles, I think if you learn Afrikaans you will be able to follow their German. My partner who grew up in the Pa Dutch region with her grandparents speakin the "Dutch" knew enough to understand my PH speaking Afrikaans, not everything but a good bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Charles, I think if you learn Afrikaans you will be able to follow their German. My partner who grew up in the Pa Dutch region with her grandparents speakin the "Dutch" knew enough to understand my PH speaking Afrikaans, not everything but a good bit.

I understand some German and my response to the discussion above was to encourage the use of German! I was also able to follow some Afrikaans when I picked up the similar bits, although my high school German is very rusty.

Note: If you are taking Larium it will be very easy to convince yourself that everyone is talking about you!

I look at it this way. Very simply, I am paying a PH and his staff very good money (and a very good tip later on) for a pleasurable, as well as a successful hunt. I want them to communicate around me, and in my presence, in English, which, by the way, is an official language in South Africa and elsewhere. I and my wife have both been in situations where the PH, his wife, and/or staff members have talked in Afrikaans or another language in our presence, and it is very frustrating, and I might add, downright rude. If a PH, his wife and/or staff want to talk in another language, then do it in the absence of the client and his wife. The exception is when hunting, and there is a need to speak in the other language for quick tracking, animal recovery, etc. The smoking issue should be handled by not smoking around the client unless he allows you to. I had my first PH ask me if his smoking would bother me, and I said yes. He never smoked around me, although he did smoke elsewhere. That made the hunt very pleasurable. I had another PH who never asked me and smoked incessantly around me, at dinner, in a blind, in the truck, in public, EVERYWHERE, even when I made comments about the nasty habit and his second hand smoke. I did not appreciate that, nor did he think to stop. PH's are in a service industry, and they need to check with their clients regarding those things, whether the client brings it up or not.

Hi Robert,

You can always politely ask them not to smoke around you. But, it's true... it's not like it is here in the states. They smoke like a chimney, everywhere!

At the lodges I've stayed in, no-smoking signs were everywhere. Those who smoke had to go outside.

As far as the not speaking english around you, again, nicely ask them to speak english so you can join the conversation. I totally understand the frustration when you are around a bunch of Ph's holding a conversation in Afrikaans or German.

Lucky for me I know a bit of German and am in the process of learning Afrikaans!

When all parties concerned speak English, speaking German or Afrikaans at a dinner table full of American hunters is rude, just as it would be rude of me to speak Spanish with my family with a table full of African guests. I fight this all the time, but most of my outfitters are finally getting used to hearing me bitch about it and are trying to speak English amongst each other in front of the hunters.

This is all interesting. This summer there were as many as 3 PHs around the table and several clients. Everyone spoke English except 2 of the clients who were Italian and only their PH could speak with them so he translated everything. I can see where there might be problems but I haven't experienced it yet in 2 different camps. In fact, the PHs were all very interested to engage the clients in conversation and asked lots of questions about Alaska.

As to smoking, I was the only one who didn't smoke but they didn't do it in an obnoxious sense. I'm not allergic to smoke so I'm a little better off than some.

As to drinking, I don't do that either and I noticed that our guys did very little drinking. Come to think of it, they seemed to drink whatever I did. Service industry indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
As to smoking, I was the only one who didn't smoke . . .
As to drinking, I don't do that either . . .

Brian, no cigars and no beer? What's the point in hunting?

On our safari in Zim this year most everyone smoked. I'm not a regular smoker but I brought a bunch of cigars and shared them with the trackers and PH. I smoked cigars with them. I must say some of the best times I had on safari was riding in the back of the cruiser sitting between the tracker and my black PH sharing and smoking cigars. I couldn't understand much of the conversation as they spoke in their native Shona and spoke little English but they made me feel confortable and were eager to teach my wife and I some Shona such as names of game we would see , trees etc. These guys were busting their butts for us hunting dangerous game in a hard country, I wouldn't of considered asking them not to smoke.

Let me see if I can 'splain this to Mike...no headaches, no horrid "after" photos, food tastes like food...you get the idea!

Hay-Man, some details on your hunt...with who, which concession, for what?

Hi Yukon Delta. My wife and I hunted 15 days this past June for buffalo, leopard and plains game in Zimbabwe. We hunted the whole time in the Chewore South concession with Roger Whittall Safaris. Our PH was Magara, a native Shona and legend in these parts. He's been with Roger for a great many years. We stayed at the Angwa camp and accomadations and food were great. At night we could hear lions roaring, along with hyenas, elephants, and a leopard that patroled camp grunting. We hunted hard and were successful on a nice 7ft leopard on day 13, plus buffalo, kudu,bushbuck,impala,hyena,baboon. We pulled out of camp a day early and overnighted at a ranch half way to Harare and hunted a giraffe and zebra. It was absolutely an incredible experience. I am going to post the full story and photos on AR soon. Scott Hayman

I agree that it is rude for people to converse in a language unknown to a another member of the group; with the exception of the ph talking to a rural native who does not speak any other language. I simply leave the group when two ph's, or, the ph and another person begin speaking in their native language; if asked why I reply that since I was not included in their conversation I found something else to do. Never made an issue of it.

I personally could care less how they talk to their friends and trackers. I just think they should be courteous and professional when speaking to me and my wife. I'm not a smoker and don't mind if my PH smokes, but I have to ask what's the difference in your PH smoking around you and standing around a campfire every evening?

i have been to namibia twice and had german speaking hosts. many times, usually during meals, they would speak to each other in german, mostly because that is how they usually speak to each other. i understand a good deal of german and can speak some, but did not tell the hosts that. as far as i understood, they almost never spoke of me, other than to get an english word so they could talk to me about a certain topic. i would not worry about it too much. i am sure any criticism was levelled after i went to bed.

I am fluent in German.
However, I feel very uncomfortable speaking in German to another Irishman.

Of all the things to worry about on Safari, this would be very low on my list.

Robert, thanks for bringing this up. I too have noticed this, though not so much the smoking problem. I began to wonder if being excluded because of the language problem was more common in regions where the population denisty is lowest. Anyway I have generally found that an outfitter who is sensitive to their clients will discourage native language being spoken at the table when he knows clients will be left out. This tells you something about the character of the outfitter. It says something about how he was brought up. It makes you appreciate those outfitters who have their foreign client's interests and entertainment in mind when their clients travel to the outfitter's continent for a safari. It stands to reason that when you invite guests in you don't needlessly exclude them from dinner conversation.

What a funny topic! In the years I have gone to Africa I failed to realize just how much I understood until my last trip.

Not so much the native languages but the accents when people spoke in English. Hence a restaurant in Joburg with a group from Afton, most were first time travelers and they could not understand the waiter's English! I thought he sounded 'plain as day'!

Recently I was hunting in Quebec which is very French and I know nothing of French. My outfitter responds to others speaking in French in English so all know what was said. I never asked him to do this but it put a lot of other Americans at ease who do not speak or understand French.

I do know some Spanish and of course none of them would have understood me if I went in saying, HOLA AMIGOS....! Of course the average Vermonter has no idea what 'spoor' is either but I use that word all the time.

Most of my African outfitters also relay what is said to staff in English after conversation is had. They do it as a courtesy and are pretty concious of making sure everyone is comfortable in such a situation.

As far as smoking goes, no one has done that around me in vehicles or during hunting except black staff on a break in the field. I don't smoke and normally, even in daily life if someone is smoking I just stand upwind of them if they do not do so on their own.

I think most PH's would honor any request to not smoke while hunting if asked.

i do smoke and as common courtesy i always ask the PH as soon as i get in the truck the first day if he minds if i smoke inside the vehicle. as would probably be expected, none of them has ever said not to light up but a few have asked me to roll down the window(which i always do anyway). over the years i have found that a little consideration of others goes a long way toward getting the best effort out of them on your behalf. as far as the language thing, i don't expect non English speakers when conversing among themselves to change things just to suit me, as long as occassionally someone gives a rough translation. the more i travel, the more i realize just how ethnocentric Americans are when i encounter them abroad. speaking English LOUDER to someone abroad will not make them understand you

Very interesting. I went on my first trip to Africa this past May. I quit smoking April 4th. Guess what my PH, host and it seemed like everyone smoked, they for the most part were courteous and I took it as a challenge. I could have done without the smoking while hunting but no big deal.

What far more bothered me was the German being spoken when their English was perfect, at the dinner table and other social gatherings. Worse than that was the long drawn out every day conversations about local politics. While local lore was welcome the daily bitchen go to be a drag. As I told my PH and host, I'm here for a good time not a long time. Sorry to seem so self absorbed but hey it's my holiday and money.
Most of the time I felt my wife and I where left out.

Well, this last trip to Namibia was wonderful, but.. One of the PH's smoked, a lot, I asked him to not smoke in the car or inside and he was very nice about it. Most, if not all, smokers I encountered were considerate.

However, the speaking Afrikans with each other while I was there got to be just a tiny bit annoying. Especially at the dinner table. We had guests on a couple of occations that spole fluent English yet at dinner carried on lengthy conversations with my hosts in Afrikans. I also had this happen on another occation where I was footing the bill for dinner and paying a "guide" to take us through Etosha. The guide spoke fluent english as did the hotel owner and yet they drifted into Afrikans whilst I was sitting there. I mean, it was just the three of us and so am I supposed to not feel "left out". What were they saying? Was it," Hoy, this guy is such a tool, thank god I only have to put up with his shit for another two days?" Maybe, maybe not, how should I know? Should I learn some Afrikans? Ok, it would be nice but for the total of one month I've spent there in the last three years I can't see it. Plus exactly who will I practice my Afrrikans with here in Montana? Sorry, I thought they were simply rude.

This is a great topic and I hope all the Pro's that frequent AR read it and take it as way to improve if needed.

In the Kalahari of Botswana, the trackers smoked pot the entire hunt. Never saw them smoke tobacco once. They would actually be running in the sand for over an hour and would pass the doubie back and forth when they crossed another's path.

I asked my 14 year old son what that smell was to see if he knew. Well, he passed my test and his eyes grew wide when I told him what it was.

If someone asks me what was the one most memorable thing about Africa, I always respond that the skill and ability of the trackers in the shifting sand is most definitely it. Just can't figure out how they do it stoned!

Interesting topic.

I hunted Namibia with a British decent PH and a Boer decent PH apprentice. The apprentice would not speak English to the PH, regardless of our presence or not. There was a bit of friction between the PH and the apprentice, most probably due to personal reasons, but also a bit of resentment form the Boer War.

This was what was explained to us by the PH anyway. We were told that some Afrikaner's refused to speak English to the British or their decendents in South Africa.

Regardless, I don't have a problem with people speaking in their native tongue/language when I am present. I just wish I could speak a few more languages myself.

As for smoking, a simple request would most probably be all that is needed. Non smoking is now a cultural norm in the States, but not in the world. I'm sure anyone would kindly not smoke around you if asked.

quote:

Originally posted by 404Rodda:


Regardless, I don't have a problem with people speaking in their native tongue/language when I am present. I just wish I could speak a few more languages myself.

As for smoking, a simple request would most probably be all that is needed. Non smoking is now a cultural norm in the States, but not in the world. I'm sure anyone would kindly not smoke around you if asked.

I've never run into a one that wouldn't not smoke if you asked.

AS to learning languages, I come from a partial Afrikaans background but I wasn't raised to speak it but it wasn't that big of a stretch to learn to get by in it just as well as I do in Spanish and Portuguese. Necessity being the mother of learning or whatever. Ask some of the gun liar moffies that float around the Dallas section of the gun internet. I do pretty well for not being a native speaker. Was just a matter of wanting to know everything said around me.

There is a bit of sensitivity to the use of English in Namibia amongst those of Afrikaner descent. Afrikaans is the most common language used by whites. When Namibia gained independence in the early 90's English was declared the official language in spite of the fact that it was not spoken commonly among the white population and was almost unknown among the black population. Many Afrikaaners believe, rightly or wrongly, that declaring English as the official language was intended as a direct affront to them and is a deliberate strategy to dilute Afrikaans culture and language.

What they say in front of you, in their language, is nothing compared to what they will say about you behind your back if you demand that they speak your language at all times. Of course, if you don't care what others are saying about you, then none of this really matters.

Living in a country that has TWO official languages may colour my opinions on language somewhat.

quote:

eclaring English as the official language was intended as a direct affront to them and is a deliberate strategy to dilute Afrikaans culture and language.

Ya think?

quote:

Originally posted by dbltap:

quote:

eclaring English as the official language was intended as a direct affront to them and is a deliberate strategy to dilute Afrikaans culture and language.

Ya think?

It's why I don't make an issue of what language they speak amongst themselves

if the black population didn't speak English and the white population didn't speak it, then how in the hell did it become the " official" LANGUAGE???

Politics!

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The status of Afrikaans and English in South Africa as home or first language. (Sensus 1996)

First language speakers of the 11 official languages number as follows:

1. Zulu (9,2 m)
2. Xhosa (7,2 m)
3. Afrikaans (5,8)
4. Northern Sotho (3,7 m)
5. English (3,5 m)
6. Tswana (3,3 m)
7. Southern Sotho (3,1 m)
8. Tsonga (1,8 m)
9. Swati (1,0 m)
10. Venda (0,9 m)
11. Ndebele (0,6 m)

60% of white South Africans use Afrikaans as first language. In parts of the country the usage goes up to 69% anomgst the Coloured's ( denoting that part of the population deriving from mixed European, hottentot and Malay slave heritage ) 90 % use Afkrikaans as first laguage

In the Southern part of Namibia up to 44% of people use it as first language

Afrikaans only became am official language in 1961 when South Africa became a Republic.

But to get back to the RELEVANCE of the thread......

It is not professional. All my staff have instructions to speak English in front of clients, and not in our own tongue. Sometimes situations do occur where we speak Afrikaans, Sotho or Zulu, but I then ask the client before hand if he will/might have any objections to it....

Smoking.....I do not know. I stopped smoking, but I think it depends on the client.....if he smokes....well he can smoke anywhere outside. If does not smoke, ask him if he will have a problem if one of the staff smokes in front of him.....

I do hope you have a better experience regarding this in future.