I left Jo-burg on the 16th. I checked a rifle case thru to Chas. WV. My rifles never came off the plane in Dulles. Today is the 20th and no one in Jo-burg or Dulles has any idea where my rifles are.

I called Anne at Air2000 and she is making inquires at the Jo-burg end for me, but she gave me some very disturbing news. SA is partnered with Scandinavian Air which is very " green " and anti-gun. Anne then told me an insurance company or group called Sportsmans Alliance has paid out $27,000.00 in lost/stolen firearms claims SINCE MAY at Dulles.

It works like this.........if your rifle case is late getting to Dulles and you are not there to claim it, it goes into bonded storage for a couple of days and from there it just disappears to another bonded house somewhere in the US. Anne will give you the whole story.

If your travel plans involve SA and Dulles change them.

I have lost the Ruger Magnum 338 that my son used on his first safari in 2004, and it has been to Africa 5 times since. Needless to say it cannot be replaced. I am filing a police report here at home and forwarding it to SA at Dulles. Anne seems to think this may motivate someone to take action.........we'll see....................JJ

Good luck on recovering your rifles. Too bad the tsa and our congress won't do anything about the airlines and their workers deliberately misplacing(stealing) or damaging firearms.

Sorry to hear about your loss JJ. Having said that, I am not sure that your loss is due to airlines being "green" or anti gun. Theft is theft, and I would supect that the insurance company will be following up as they don't like to lose money either. When I am called to board the plane, I always ask them to check to see if my luggage was on the plane. Did you do this in JoBerg?
Peter.

I came back from Zim through Joberg and Dulles last year. I received my gun case (with 3 very valuable and irreplacable rifles in it) and my other checked bag with the remainder of my gear. I went through customs and walked both bags to the check-in area again. I watched them go down the chute, and they never came off the plane in Vegas. I was frantic for several days, and the airlines were just non-responsive about it. Finally, the bag without the guns showed up - but no gun case (it was aTuffpack).

The airlines assured me they would reimburse me at least $700.00 for the loss - Weeee - a WHOLE $700.00.

Finally, by some act the guns were located . . . In San Francisco! I got them back. Moral of the story is to buy supplemental gun insurance prior to going on safari or any hunting trip. I certainly will in the future.

Peter, yes I watched the rifle go into the back after we cleared SAPS/Customs in the Jo-burg Airport. I even remember the guys name that carried the rifle, James, and he assured me it was placed on the belt to the plane. I was in business class and the line was very short and there was not any rush or jam of people waiting behind me.

The issue of Scandia Air being green and causing problems came from the people tasked with sorting these things out. Scandia puts firearms at the bottom of the lost luggage list. Go figure....................JJ

JJ,

Sorry to hear about your rifles, I hope it works out for you.

Peter, where have you been for the last 10 yrs.? Anti gun and "green" goes to the employees also.

Well, this certainly got me panicked, so I called the agent for my homeowner's insurance. They told me that I'm insured for up to $2500 for theft or loss of personal property, including firearms, while travelling. I mention it because if your homeowner's covers your guns, you may not need supplemental insurance.

Of course, that doesn't make up for the loss of something to which any sentiment is attached.

I have a lot of clients fly Ehtiopian Airlines out of Dulles w/o any problem. They check their firarms and other luggage straight through to Addis Ababa. If they are laying over and have to claim their luggage, I fax them their Ethiopian Firearms permit in case the airlines asks. It's in Amharic but so what..the ET guys can read it. Coming home they claim their firearms from ET customs at the Addis Ababa airport and it's sent directly to the plane. On return to Dulles they have to claim their luggage for US customs. No problem there either. Sounds to me like the problem is in Jo'Burg, not Dulles.
Rich Elliott

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Sorry to hear about your rifles, I hope it works out for you.

First place I would look is LHook's gun cabinet. You know he steals guns ...



Very sorry JJ, that is pisser. I hope yours shows up one day.

This did not involve firearms but last year my luggage was lost. I was flying Continental with a connection with Al Italia. My luggage vanished. Both airlines pointed fingers at each other for responsability. Then they pointed fingers at each other over who was to replace said luggage. I heard every imaginable bullshit excuse. I was promised 500 dollars which was never recieved. Weeks went by and on the news one night they tell me Police have found two industrial dumpsters filled with luggage from Continental airlines. I don't know if my things were there or not but most likely they had fallen theft to the same group of airline employees. I never heard an apology. No one cares. There is not one single other busines besides the frieght companies (also crooked) that can dodge fiscal resposibility for lost or damaged property. They have been protected by unfair and immoral federal laws. Shame on these shitty corrupt airlines and shame on the government who passes laws to protect thier immoral business practices.

Man, that sucks. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles and missing guns. I'd be beside myself if I were to lose one of my guns for any reason. I'd liken them to kids if I had any...

As if commercial air travel wasn't crappy enough as it is, now we've got this!

quote:

Originally posted by wihntr:
Well, this certainly got me panicked, so I called the agent for my homeowner's insurance. They told me that I'm insured for up to $2500 for theft or loss of personal property, including firearms, while travelling. I mention it because if your homeowner's covers your guns, you may not need supplemental insurance.

Of course, that doesn't make up for the loss of something to which any sentiment is attached.

Minus your deductible?

Buy the Gun Floater Insurance. I just renewed mine again for this year and added three items. It is cheap insurance for your guns and optics and there is no deductible. Having had my guns lost once on the way to Africa and having them eventually turn up in Florida, but only after much cursing, anxiety, numerous telephone calls and meetings with airlines officials and TSA reps, sleepless nights, etc., I learned that I will never travel without gun insurance, plain and simple.

JJ- don't forget that if you are a NRA member, you have some gun insurance through them as well. I hope they are found, what a bummer!

John

JJ, I am very sorry to hear about your loss. I hope you will find it.

Send my regards to Josh, you can also have some.

I spoke to our own Terry Blauwkamp and he advised me that his rifles fell off the baggage cart onto the tarmac at Dulles. They layed there for an unknown amount of time and someone finally picked them up and took them to the airport police at Dulles and they stayed there for several days and he finally found them Chicago !!!

But I am not even sure mine made it out of SA. Air2000 is my only hope. I may be saddleing up and going back to Jo-burg in a couple of days to look for my self. I remember who was working SAPS that day. I may need a combat extraction team to get me back out....we'll see...........JJ

Can (or will) our South African contacts be helpful in this, meaning the South African Professional Hunters Association and others who might have a stake in ensuring that their client's firearms return with them? It sounds like someone needs to hammer on SAPS and any others that might be involved with some investigative authority. Perhaps there's a ring in South Africa and someone in authority is a part of it, IF it's Joburg's problem and not our own Dulles people.

Sorry to hear about your problem. I returned fron Zimbabwe on June 13 flying through Joburg to Dullas. I had the good fortune to find my bags made it to DC. I had bought floater insurance just in case but thankfully did not need it. I don't trust the baggage system so I took the stocks off my rifles to make them shorter and put everything in short shotgun cases inside my duffel bags so no one would know there were guns inside. Those long aluminum coffins just scream "guns inside." I am sure they could lose a duffel bag too but at least no one would know there were guns inside.

In the for “what it is worth column†-- going through Jo-Berg on SAA headed to Windhoek -- I inquired of an SAA agent (in Jo-Berg) as to my rifle case making the connection – I was assured that it was still with me and ready to go on the plane -- Big Wrongo!!!!!--- the SAA agent was lying -- gun case was still in Dulles -- it had never made the transfer from UA to SAA -- lost a couple days hunting in that deal.

JJ,

sorry to say it this way but "I feel your pain." Hey, Air2000 is not your only hope. I suggest you file a courteous but strongly worded "WTF" with both the J-burg and Dulles office. Phone them and ask for the station chief. Then phone SAP office at JNB and ask for the chief constable and kindly inform him of the what for's. Remember, you do not clear SAP realistically when you leave JNB anymore. They have contracted that out to a security company. Inform the CC of the fellow's name who handled your paperwork in that tiny, litter strewn back office and then carted your firearms to the plane.

The Chief Constable is a good fellow and in fact, just five weeks ago, squared me away when Air France decided that my guns wanted to stay in paris for a few days rather than join me on safari. The CC gave them what for, let me go on to my final, and forced AF to have their JNB station chief personally escort my rifles to SAP and then escort them personally to my final. This guy will find out if your guns made it to the plane.

You also may want to check on what other flights left two hours before and two hours after in case the security dude put the suckers on the wrong aircraft. Happened to me once and I found them in Frankfurt with Luft not having thecourtesy to look at the tag and call me asking WTF.

Sorry to hear that. I just went through that connection last week with a Tuffpak and no gun issues. They did lose my other bag for a few days but it was returned ok.

quote:

Originally posted by nkonka:
You also may want to check on what other flights left two hours before and two hours after in case the security dude put the suckers on the wrong aircraft. Happened to me once and I found them in Frankfurt with Luft not having thecourtesy to look at the tag and call me asking WTF.

Speaking of which, I travel around alot for work, and I have quit using tags of any kind for luggage ID. Not even heavy duty plastic ones, as the luggage guys will use them as straps to yank bags off the plane (ie: your tag off your bag).

I went to a trophy shop and had aluminum plates engraved with my information, and even an alternate contact, and pop riveted them to all my hard sided bags and gun cases. Never hurts to have a little extra insurance!

Travelers,

I am a sergeant of detectives at a major northest USA airport. I have done this

work for years and at a total of three major airports. We typically view any missing

luggage in cetain ways as follows: Let's say you check in at my airport to go to

AFRICA. At your first airport in Africa your bag[s], {be they gun cases or other}

don't make it to you, IN YOUR HANDS. In this case we would expect your property was

taken at my airport in the USA since you likely checked in a couple of hours early

and the bags were available to our baggage handlers for all that time to "secret"

them away. Now if you tell me you SAW your purple poke-a-dotted gun case come OFF

the plane in AFRICA, then you lost site of it as you went the way of the passengers

and your very noticable bag went the way of the other bags, but at baggage claim

you NEVER SEE IT, then I'll know that "it's not my crime to solve" since YOU KNOW

FOR SURE the case got at least to Jo burg or where ever you are in Africa as your

first stop. Now if you are leaving AFRICA and you arrive at my USA airport and you

never see your bags, and you have not seen your bags since you checked them, [or

it] at Jo burg or where ever in AFRICA, then we will NOT be inclined to conclude

that it is ours to solve. We figure there's relatively little time for the thiefs

to mess with INCOMING luggage as compared to OUTGOING luggage. Now luggage that

is moving THROUGH my airport because you are connecting at my airport is basically

seen the same way. If you arrive at my place and in fact collect your belongings,

AND DEFINITEVLY TELL ME THAT YOU DID A FULL INTENTORY AND ALL WAS INTACT, then

you brought your bags to the next check in counter and did your business there,

then you waited an hour or so for for next plane to let you board and all this

time your property is in the custody of your airline and no where near you and

obviously not within your view, then you arrive at your next and final stop and

you don't get all your bags because one or more never are seen by you at this

final stop, we, at my airport will see that as our crime to solve. Now lets say

ALL your bags and gun cases get to your final stop. INVENTORY THEM ALL RIGHT

THERE AT THE AIRPORT! This way you KNOW FOR CERTAIN that all contents are there,

or, somebody opened your bag and took something out of it, most likely at the

PRIOR airport, again because they had the most time to do so. And I must say,

on every trip, INSURE YOUR GUNS FOR REPLACEMENT VALUE, PERIOD. Every situation

is different. You might supply details to me that change the way your's is being

viewed. I am telling you, INVENTORY YOUR PROPERTY COMPLETELY, EACH TIME YOU "NEWLY"

REGAIN PHYSICAL POSSESSION/CONTROL OF IT, AIRPORT AFTER AIRPORT. The details make

a difference in the way a missing property issue is handled.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
I called Anne at Air2000 and she is making inquires at the Jo-burg end for me, but she gave me some very disturbing news. SA is partnered with Scandinavian Air which is very " green " and anti-gun. Anne then told me an insurance company or group called Sportsmans Alliance has paid out $27,000.00 in lost/stolen firearms claims SINCE MAY at Dulles.
JJ

JJ, which air line are you referering to ?
No air carrier company I know of is called Scandinavian Air or Scandi Air ?

If you mean Scandinavian Airlines System ( aka SAS ) they are not particularly "green" or anti gun. We fly them all the time in Scandinavia ( Norway, Sweden and Denmark) and there have not been an issue about missing hunting arms as far as I know, or problems checking in with sporting / hunting firearms. 5kg ammo packed separately from the gun, and guns checked in preferably with the bolt removed.
Which means flying tourist class with two items checked in baggage, total 20 kilo.

But we do not usually transfer via Dulles eighter.

Arild, I have a call in to Anne at the moment, I will ask her again which airlines she is refering to...............JJ

Arild, I am sorry to bring you the bad news, my spelling is bad, but it is indeed SAS that has given Air2000 hunters trouble. Air2000 has a long list of stunts pulled on hunters by SAS in an effort to seperate hunters from their rifles...sorry, they are green and anti-hunter. Call Air2000 and they will run down the list for you...................JJ

For what it's worth. In 2006 and again in 2007 I flew SAA from Dulles. Both times on the return trip, but guns made it to Dulles, but my duffel bag didn't arrive. Both times my bag was delivered to my house a few days later. This year, they claimed they found my bag in Joberg (trip started in Harare) without any ID tags. There were several tags on the bag when I checked in, but none when the bag was delivered.

No offense bigfive jack but I think most of us gave up on police actually solving robberies a long time ago. we are more interested in the civil restitution that the airlines should be held accountable for. They hire the employees that either are too lazy and loose luggage or even worse are corrupt and steel the luggage. Ask any lawyer this makes them responsible. And I am not sure opening a gun case in a major U.S. airport to check and see if weapons are in there is the best advice. I got searched at JFK 3 years ago while two national gaurdsman pointed machine guns at me because I walked in there with a gun case. I can't imagine what could happen if I opened the case without TSA officals and armed gaurds around. I would probably still be sitting in jail.

JJ.
Really sorry to hear that SAS, our main Scandinavian air line have got that "green / anti gun" reputation.
But I still dont understand how SAS came in to the picture.
As far as I know they don´t fly Johannesburg at all ?
And you travelled with SAA from Johburg to Dulles, right?
When do SAS step in ?

Arild, it seems that when South African Air comes into Dulles they do not have their own facilities, so they partnered with SAS in regards to baggage handling, service, fuel, ground crew ect.ect.,and even using SAS for buisness class lounge. Its even announced on the plane as you come in to land at Dulles...................JJ

quote:

... There is not one single other busines besides the frieght companies (also crooked) that can dodge fiscal resposibility for lost or damaged property. They have been protected by unfair and immoral federal laws. Shame on these shitty corrupt airlines and shame on the government who passes laws to protect thier immoral business practices.

Not to take away from JJ's loss but, cross country moving companies, what a scam... I paid in full for my household to be moved from Michigan to Vermont. The company only delivered half. They are located in Ohio and even though they have basically kept my belongings, to me constitutes theft, the Ohio Attorney General says they are powerless to get my belongings. Talk about corruption...

It boggles my mind how some companies seem to be above the law.

Hallo !!john Kofoed from Norway here !!i have used SAS for 27 hunts to RSA in the last 5 years and newer had a problem with my or my clients guns!!but Air France and BA have several times lost the guns for the clients!!i am now only flying with South African airways and SAS.

SCI offers reasonably priced supplimental insurance for firearms and optics. I always use it.

Given the fact that several airlines in the states, particularly Northwest, contract out their baggage handling, you never know who is going to get his hands on your firearms.

I personally despise Northwest, but flew them anyway last year to Dar and back, sweating bullets all the way, as Northwest had turned a rifle around on a Texas deer hunt last year and shipped it back to my departure point in Orlando when I changed planes in Memphis for San Antonio. That put a big crimp in that three-day hunt. I got the rifle, 36 hours later.

My guns made it to Dar, but it was very comforting to me to have purchased full replacement value on them.

Baggage replacement value is limited by international treaty, not the individual laws of the US. If you're on an international flight, I seem to recall that the air carrier's liability is limited to $500.00.
So insure those Leicas or Swaros and your rifles before you leave.

I drove to Denver and picked up a friend that flew North West from Columbus, Ohio to Denver, Colorado just a couple weeks ago. He had two very expensive custom target rifles checked through. We had a week of Prairie Dog shooting to do. He changed planes once along the way. We waited forever at the baggage claim but no rifles. When we checked in with the customer service rep. we found that the rifle case had never been scanned in as loaded on any aircraft in the system! Finally after an hour or so the case did show up. We had the rep check the tag again and the rifle case had never been tracked or scanned on the entire trip. How easy would it to be to steal a rifle that by airline records never existed!!!

Here is the deal as it was explained to me by the airlines. The guns/bags are scanned into the system at the airport of departure. Then they are scanned upon their receipt at the airport of arrival. There is no tracking of the bags and guns in between. That is what I was specifically told when I went looking for mine in 2005 for 24 hours. That is how things, including guns, are stolen.

After 14 hours on or by the phone, its time to take the bull by the horns.....The South African Air baggage claim supervisor Anton Van Rensburg tells me his computer in Jo-burg shows my rifles were scanned off the SAA flight at 1105 am the 17th in Dulles, our arrival date.

So I am going to fly back to Dulles today and sort this out in person. You may see me on CNN News tonight being led off in handcuffs. I refuse to be run around any further, I want some face to face answers...............JJ

An e mail extra just came from the Hunting Report. Apparently, the problem is that the planes being used cannot carry all of the luggage, passengers and fuel necessary. They are intentionally leaving some luggage behind.

Yes that is an old SAA trick. SAA pulled that on a bunch of us in Jo'burg while preparing to fly to Phaloborwa in 2005. Two of us then literally got into the faces of some of the official black SAA reps that had made the decision that some passengers and most of the passenger's luggage would stay behind and would be delivered in 2-3 days, All of the other passengers, execept the two of us, just meekly stood by refusing to challenge them on it. I then told all of the remaining passengers that I and my wife were going on that flight with all of our luggage and guns and that the rest of them, who were refusing to speak up, could then decide amongst themselves who was flying and who was staying behind with their luggage. After our very "frank" discussion, SAA brought in a bigger plane that would carry all of the passengers and all of their luggage. A South African PH was on that flight as well, and he made no bones about the situation either. Lucky for the two of us that we weren't arrested and thrown into jail, as it got extremely heated.

Yeah, 458Lottfan, that's Northwest for you, the gutterball of the legacy carriers. They are truly pathetic. They claim absolutely no liability for anything you give them. They will destroy or lose your baggage, use contract labor for maintenance and baggage handling and book your supplimental flights on inferior aircraft, don't fly Boeings, lose your guns, and finally they don't offer supplimental insurance for your expensive luggage such as rifles, as several other carriers do. All they want is your money. They could care less if you show up to fill the seat. I imagine they'd rather have you not appear, as they burn less fuel that way. I despise them, and I commuted on them for a couple of years out of Anchorage.