If you have a mechanical DD, it is usually caused by the second sear slipping from the recoil of the first shot. It happens almost instantly, so the barrel is just starting to move in recoil and the bullets tend to hit close together. On the second type of DD the finger slipping back to the back trigger doesn't occur until forced to by recoil so this type of DD is slower in developing allowing the barrel to move farther than in the first case. Consequently the bullets hit farther apart.

I have seen one istance of the first type of DD and detailed it in an earlier post above. I have seen two shooters have the second type of DD both on the range. In both cases we were able to determine the cause and solve the problem. Both of those shooters used the crease between the first and second joints of the trigger finger to pull the trigger. When they changed their shooting technique to use the middle of the pad of the first joint they no longer had a problem. When you use the crease the pad of the second joint gets really close to the rear trigger. That combined with the fact that both shooter had chubby fingers caused the problems. I use the frist pad techinique and have slinm fingers which proably helps in my never having had a problem. I'm knocking on wood though.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I cannot figure out how a fellow doubles a rifle that is machnically sound, at least more than once.

I don't understand this either. I've never had a double discharge with a double trigger shotgun or rifle. The only double discharge I've ever had was with a shotgun with a mechanical single trigger.

Avoiding a double discharge is really simple. With a mechanically sound double trigger gun, if you keep your trigger finger mounted on the front trigger through the recoil impulse, you won't get a double discharge. If you let it slip off, you will get a double discharge. It's that simple. If you can't fire the right barrel first without a double discharge being an issue at all, you haven't mastered double triggers yet.

Learning to use a double rifle involves that extra learning curve of the proper use of double triggers. Some folks can use them without the trigger finger slipping off without having to modify the trigger finger technique that they're accustomed to, but most can't. For those, all that's necessary to eliminate the problem is to learn to address the trigger in a slightly different way. What's surprising is that so many don't seem to be able to adapt to something so simple.

The solution of firing the left barrel first can work up to a point, but is a bit of a crutch. If you ever have a need to fire the right barrel first in the field (for choice of bullet type for example), then you're just accepting the risk of a double discharge in front of game. Far better to learn to do it correctly.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I theorize that the primary cause of double is when the pistol grip is not gripped tightly, then the rifle will tend to slip during recoil which may drag the trigger finger across the other trigger, causing the 2nd barrel to fire.

Butchloc, how quickly can you recover from a doubling, reload and get back on target. Can you do it faster than the normal man can rack a bolt and ready himself for another shot? I am not trying to be a shit, just wondering. I think a lot of people think they can do it as fast, but the reality is that they cannot. Not saying you can’t, just saying...

465H&H, I would like to think that with all the practicing I have done with a bolt that yes, I could get off a second shot fast enough, but there is only one way to be sure and I would rather not test it. It has been proven that I can empty and reload a bolt very quickly, there is a PH on here that could attest to this if he so chose, but it probably isn’t necessary.

Jim, actually all of the doubling I have heard of took place when it was nice and hot outside. And I believe the doubling was attributed to sweaty, slippery hands. Usually when in Africa after a long stalk it is going to be hot and you are going to have sweaty, slippery hands. I saw a connection here, but maybe I am seeing things. I agree that the practice range is where you should sort out any difficulties, but the practice range, no matter how often you go, cannot duplicate the feelings and sensations of staring across a short distance at something that can kill you. Sometimes practice does not make perfect.

Gerrys375, “Being a dumb Irishman I always liked (in my younger days) to get into a fight -just for the sake of the fight -even If I didn't know who's side I was supposed to be on!†That explains a lot about me!

NitroX, “If I use the rear trigger first the rifle does not double, but in the heat of the moment one can forget. Also it only happens in front of DG!†Exactly!

Tony, good information - “do not use slippery gloves, and when shooting from unstable positions, use rear trigger first.â€

Will, “Are you guys crazy?†Yes, it is a requirement upon hunting DG with short-stroked bolts and doubling double rifles.

Mac and Will, I didn’t even consider differentiating between the two types of doubling when I made the initial post. Thanks for the info.

Perry, as far as doubling goes, “I certainly would not want it to happen when I was shooting at something that could rearrange my DNA.†Neither would I!

Lots of interesting takes here on the question posed. Good information all around. I think I am still of the opinion that I will stick with a bolt for now. I am sure that in a few years I will get a double, but I would be getting it for the nostalgia rather than the serviceability. Thanks for the info guys. Much appreciated.


Brian

Will:

I assumed that what Lhook7 meant by a "short stroke" is not literally that the bolt was not pulled back completely -but rather that the bolt could get fouled up on picking up on the new cartridge because of working the bolt too hastily (or simply that the cartridge was "tipped" on the magazine follower so that the closing bolt didn't pick it up right. We both know it doesn't happen very often - but, nonetheless, it does happen. Granted, that an experienced user of a bolt action doen't have that problem very often - but I freely confess that I don't know to this day what my frame of mind might have been if I had to get off a second shot if the buff were now 30 feet away and coming -and therefore how cool I would have been in operating the bolt. I repeat, that it always has seemed to me that the quick second shot requiring only that the shooter set himself and press that trigger with no mechanical motions in between would be the way I would have wanted to go! I guess I mean only that for myself personally, I would want a DB for close quarters DG. That's a purely personal opinion. Of course, I don't offer any opinion to contradict the experienced people in this forum. I'm only saying what I think I would have liked.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Both of those shooters used the crease between the first and second joints of the trigger finger to pull the trigger. When they changed their shooting technique to use the middle of the pad of the first joint they no longer had a problem. When you use the crease the pad of the second joint gets really close to the rear trigger. That combined with the fact that both shooter had chubby fingers caused the problems. I use the frist pad techinique and have slinm fingers which proably helps in my never having had a problem. I'm knocking on wood though.

465:

Not arguing with you at all, but I find this very interesting as it is so precisely opposite to what I've observed many times.

I've placed the trigger at the first joint all of my life and shoot everything that way. I think that's why I've never had a double discharge with double trigger guns. We've had a number of double discharges at our DRSS events and I've watched the guys who've had a problem shoot. As I remember, they've all been "middle padders", which is no surprise as that's how most folks were taught to shoot.

If the two guys you mentioned were hitting the rear trigger with the middle of the finger, they must have been really having to reach for the front trigger. You mentioned they had short fingers which makes sense, but I wonder if the LOP was too long for them also?

It just goes to show that human physiology plays the biggest role, and that there are no short cuts. The individual shooter has to experiment with it until he finds the right technique that keeps his trigger finger planted.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The old time elephant hunters put their faith in a gunbearer with an extra double.

If a hunter's DR doubled on him, or if he needed a fresh two quicker than he could reload, then he would just pass the empty rifle post haste to his gunbearer who exchanged it for another one and then reloaded the empty one.

Of course, those were different days.

But a gun bearer can come in quite handy even these days and even when hunting with a bolt rifle. I have relied on a tracker to carry an extra bolt rifle for me into the bush when tracking game on a few occasions.

When I was carrying an iron sighted rifle after DG, I would have one of the trackers carry a scope sighted rifle in case I needed it for a difficult shot. I never did, but it was comforting to have the extra rifle along.

400 Nitro Express

The two shooters mentioned above were using rifles that fit them reasonably well. Rather than their fingers being short they were to put it mildly fat. When you watched them shoulder the rifle you could see how close the pad between the second and third joints came to the trigger. If they gripped the rifle firmly, no problem but if they were in a hurry their grip was much looser and the problem occured. I suspect it also may have to do somewhat with the design of the rifle and how the triggers are placed. The triggers on my Searcy have a greater lateral seperation than the triggers on my German double. It has been so long since I have owned a British double I don't remember how they were designed.

I agree completely with you that there are many ways to skin a cat as well as to cause a DD. One solution won't fit all and anyone going after DG needs to know how to shoot a double or a bolt rifle for that matter the correct way.

465H&H

Well, my suspicion is that there's a good reason so many DG PHs use doubles. And, it's probably not for needing a place to invest high wages.

That said, and not owning one, I've always wondered if anyone has actually done any repeatable testing of one versus the other in competition.

For instance, is there an experienced shooter out there who's familiar & facile with both the double and the bolt being tested who's done something like this:

Run a paper target with a volleyball sized vital zone toward the shooter at 30mph from distances of 10, 25 and 50 yards. Have the shooter put as many rounds in the target as they can from each of the bolt and the double before the target reaches them. Post the hit count for each distance.

Saeed....You're my man for this test.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I theorize that the primary cause of double is when the pistol grip is not gripped tightly, then the rifle will tend to slip during recoil which may drag the trigger finger across the other trigger, causing the 2nd barrel to fire.

I'm in total agreement with the above statement! I think the proper grip contact is key, in most cases!

I recently had the pleasure of meeting 500 grains in person when I was in Salt Lake City over Christmas.



Dan let me shoot his two 500 Nitro's, a Searcy and a Hambrusch.



I loved the Hambrusch because it fit me so well, thought the Searcy's sights were a bit wider and aligned more quickly, the stock fit caused more felt recoil (to me) even though the rifle was about a pound heavier.



My first time shooting a double rifle. 25 yards off-hand. Recoil surprisingly manageable.

Check out those cigars! Dan uses Woodleighs for practice.



I was not the fastest kid on the block reloading. Where's the damn bolt?



This is Dan in full recoil from the bench. No shit!



And yes, he does look a lot like Superman!

I believe a rifle shot against an immovable object like Dans shoulder is more likely to double than when shooting off hand, when recoil looks more like this:



Still impressive on snow and ice!

Dan can supply details, but the Hambrusch had a slightly heavier second trigger than first trigger. This took some getting use too but not a lot.

If doubling from recoil really is a problem, the Hambrusch may have this well sorted out.

And thank you again Dan for your hospitality!

Andy

Allout, The object of playing the game is to find out the outcome firsthand. In this world there are enumeral "whatifs, could happen, might have been's." Don't forget, a meteor might fall on you just as you raise the rifle for that first shot. Lightening could strike the animal and deny you the glorious opportunity to bag the quarry, but give you the story and sight of a lifetime. Best of all is of course the Boy Scout training which precludes any disasters by being prepared. So as you can see I have no answers!

Good hunting.

Interesting post from Andy regarding Dan. Most interesting is Dan in full recoil with the Searcy 500. If you have seen Dan in full recoil while, with the same rifle, shooting an elephant in Buzz's video you will note the absence of muzzle rise when an elephant is in the sughts.

JPK

On Buzz Chartlon Elephant hunting DVD,Sten Cedergen talks about firing about both barrels at the same time and even if the brain was missed,the shock knocked the Elepahnt over and he had time to put in a finishing shot

Jumbo Moore has a Searcy 577 that tends to double a lot.

Can you say OUCH!

JPK,

A video camera only operates at the equivilent of 1/60 th of a second shutter speed. To capture someone in full recoil, you need at least 200/sec and 500/sec is better.

This was photographed at 1/200 which is maximum flash would allow.

I agree the video looks more like shooting from the bench, and probably was.

I was actually pushed backwards about a foot-width on the thin layer of snow and ice.

Easier in Africa I think?

500's do kick and I can see why Hambrusch sets the second sear heavier than the first.

Dan pointed out several other very interesting things to me I did not know. The width of the Searcy receiver accepts up to .577 which makes the rifle somewhat heavier than it could be, but keeps cost down as it is a universal platform.

The barrels were also somewhat thicker than the Hambrusch which may be a benefit when using a hard monometal.

PS Dan can rapid fire a 375 into clover leafs off hand at 25 yards. Now thats a real elephant rifle!

He has also demonstrated to me that someone who grows up with a bolt action can transition to a DR with practice. He shoots a bolt gun pretty darn fast!

Andy

Andy,

I think we all rock to absorb recoil when we shoot standing here at home. I think we just take the recoil firmly in Africa and never miss a beat because our attention is focused elsewhere.

JPK

JPK,

I agree.

The 500's kicked less than I expected but my back was kind of twisted out of alignment for a couple days afterwards!

I am pretty sure I was twisting high and right during recoil.

I did take a step forward with my left foot and leaned forward like I would when shooting a medium machinegun from the shoulder.

Hardest thing for me to learn would be a quick reload, and to shoot the DR enough to loosen up the breech face so it broke open more quickly.

Andy

Andy,

Openning the breach rapidly, even when it is stiff, is no problem in the heat of the moment. You won't notice the stiffness.

I reload from a belt and get my practice with a shotgun. A couple of thousand rounds with a SxS shotgun and all SxS's are familiar.

JPK

ANDY... ??? How did the recoil of Dan,s 500 nitros compared to your AHR 450

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Andy,

I think we all rock to absorb recoil when we shoot standing here at home. I think we just take the recoil firmly in Africa and never miss a beat because our attention is focused elsewhere.

JPK

That is certainly the truth. Recoil rarely even factors into a shot during a hunt, unless one holds the rifle incorrectly, when it might hurt a lot (eg the infamous weatherby eye-brows, or holding butt incorrectly against the shoulder).

However the stiffness in the shoulder afterwards still tells the tale.

Talking about the need for a second shot.

What about Karamojo Bell? When he started off hunting elephant in the tall grass, and shot either from a black's shoulders, or from a tripod. The recoil from a big bore used to knock him off, flat on the ground. One reason for him switching to a "small" bore.

Do the gentlemen here think he was in a good position for an emergency second shot?!

Andy, those are sharp pictures with very good detail, what kind of camera are you using?

Gumboot,

I intended to take my 450 Dakota to range for Dan to shoot but my car was loaded down with Christmas presants and I had no room. (I live about 12 hours away).

Oddly enough, on paper the 450 Dakota and 500 nitro have similar recoil velocity and foot pounds in 11 pound rifles.

There is a longer dwell time (sustained push) with the nitro. Probably due to much heavier bullet.

Subjectively, the Dakota seems to recoil faster but kick less if that makes sense.

The Searcy whacked your cheek pretty good, like a 300 weatherby. The Hambrusch did not. It just fit me better.

475 guy,

Canon Eos 10-D using fill flash. I set shutter speed to 200/sec and handed it off to my father in law who took pictures. Using flash in daylight insures that snow did not cause camera's light meter to under expose photos.

Andy