OK. In the long standing double vs. bolt debate, I would like to pose the following question, I am not trying to start anything or imply doubles are not the cat’s meow; but – What happens when you are facing down a dangerous game situation (i.e. a charge) and you accidentally double your double? I know it happens; there have been too many reports of it happening at the DRSS events to say it never happens. If you are unfortunate enough to do this, you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots and then, you have just “dumped†your load. There is no third shot or fourth available. This is all of coursed based off the principle that there is never time for a third or fourth shot anyway, so that part really doesn’t matter. You may be a split second slower with a bolt, but you are never going to run up against this situation. Am i totaly wrong in thinking this way or... any thoughts???

Brian

What if you short stroke your bolt?

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots
Brian

Well, I was buying this scenario until this was stated.

It doesn't follow that you will miss with the first shot, or both for that matter, though the second shot will probably be too high.

But I have the same opinion....in a charge it is a two shot deal. If you miss with them it is all over, but so it is with a bolt. In a close-quarters, for-real-charge, I'd take the double.

Double rifles balance much better when you grab them by the barrels and break the butt stock over the head of a charging animal. The longer barrel of the bolt gun really shifts the point of balance forward enough to disrupt your natural swing.

As far as I'm concerned, there's really no comparison. Swinging a bolt gun is like swinging an aluminum bat; I'm just a Louisville Slugger kinda guy.

My advice is worth what you paid for it.

hey its a good question & I've had it happen - what yu do is to recover from the shot and reload as quick as you can, relying on your PH at the same time. nothing fancy or thought out before hand, just instinct or 2nd nature or whatever you may call it. you'd be suprised how quick you can reload, I my case the ele didn't cover over 25' before I had one barrel ready to go again

Any time you have a mechanical failure with your weapon in a dangerous situation, you're in deep doo-doo. This is true for any kind of weapon.

ALL mechanical systems can fail. None are FOOLPROOF.

The following statement is NOT aimed at anyone.

If you're a FOOL don't hunt dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots
Brian

Well, I was buying this scenario until this was stated.

Will,
Based solely off what others have told me, when you double a double neither shot goes where you originally aim. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. Never have doubled one myself (And I hope I never do). So I have no evedence to back it up.

Brian

Still not enough of an argument there to go either way with this one.

I talked to a millionaire bwana in Botswana, right after he had just test driven his brand new H&H "Royal" sidelock 500 NE 3-inch double for the first time in the bush. In fact I got to watch the elephant being butchered and my PH and I allowed use of our bakkie to haul out a ton or so of the meat because the big flatbed truck in the camp was broken down.

They were at spitting range as the tusker ran by them in the mopane. He hesitated on the side brain shot at an upward angle until Jumbo had passed, but he yanked the triggers at the back of the elephant's skull and neck.

Both barrels went off, near simultaneously, but apparently the first bullet at least left the muzzle before the second one flew wild a split second later.

The elephant collapsed in mid stride.

Some double-fires happen after the first shot goes true and the second trigger is released in the recoil by the fumbling finger (most often) or a faulty trigger mechanism.

It's still a draw.

A bolt action is best 99% of the time ... but ... 1% of the time a double in hand is worth 99 bolt actions in the bush.

What happens if you have a primer that doesn't go off with your bolt rifle? You can make up all kinds of scenarios when one is better than the other. In Zim the legal distance to shot a charging elephant and claim self defense is 10 meters. If you don't stop or at least really slow down an elephant with the first shot, can you work the bolt fast enough and still get off an aimed shot before......?

I saw a friend have a double discharge with a 450/400 Jeffery on a bull Bison at around 75 yards. The first bullet hit the heart where aimed and the left barrel approximately 8 inches higher through the center of the lungs. At 10 yards the bullet would have only been around 1 inch higher than the first shot.

465H&H

quote:

A bolt action is best 99% of the time ... but ... 1% of the time a double in hand is worth 99 bolt actions in the bush.

I agree with RIP on the second part of this ataement but the first part is a double shovel full of...

The majority of PHs that I have run into in Zim that use a bolt rifle to back up clients on elephant, lion and buff in the thick stuff are trying to figure out how to afford one.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
What happens if you have a primer that doesn't go off with your bolt rifle?

Tits up?

What happens? Well hopefully you are well conditioned and have been doing flexibility exercises. This will enable you to bend at the waist and kiss your butt goodbye.

It comes down to practice and knowing your rifle. What you heard about the doubles doubling at the DRSS was, in my view, due to a new shooter (new to the rifle or another member's double) with a rifle having too long a LOP. And that the temperature was in the 20's F, the extra clothing probably added to the issue.

It would not surprise me if the gentleman with the new H&H saved his first use for the Safari. For a lot of people getting their first double, the caliber and recoil is a big step up from what they were shooting in a bolt rifle.

For either a double or a bolt, the practice range is where you need to find out whether you have an issue with the rifle or your technique.

quote:

there have been too many reports of it happening at the DRSS events to say it never happens.

At each of the DRSS that I attended when someone doubled their rifle, it was by someone who was shooting:

1. a new rifle they were not familiar with

and

2. a rifle is a caliber a lot larger than they were accustomed too.

(And one incident involved a left hand shooter shooting a right handed .577 NE. He pulled the front trigger first which caused the rear trigger (closer to his finger) to get pulled too.)

Being a dumb Irishman I always liked (in my younger days) to get into a fight -just for the sake of the fight -even If I didn't know who's side I was supposed to be on! I have shot a Cape buff (with a bolt action) who had turned to go for me at less than 35 yards -so I am not entirely without credentials in this argument! I feel in my gut that I am with Lhook7 and his comment about a "short stroke". My buff never got so close as to remind me more vividly that nearly a ton of beef might be coming for me -and more important - I would think that quick second shot if it had been needed (fired without having to do anything but to squeeze off) would be why a DB would have been my choice if needed. I must hasten to say that I was in Africa only once (sadly) and will defer to people who have had experience in the field. It's just that I could see myself doing what Lhook7 was driving at in mentioning the "short stroke" of the bolt action that would make me want to have a DB for DG coming at me at close quarters. Just the thoughts of a one time Africa hunter and no argument intended!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gerrys375:
I feel in my gut that I am with Lhook7 and his comment about a "short stroke".QUOTE]

There are always these possible "short-stroke" stories.

Does anybody really do this?

Learn to shoot the rear trigger first. This eliminates most chances for doubling.

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
OK. In the long standing double vs. bolt debate, I would like to pose the following question, I am not trying to start anything or imply doubles are not the cat’s meow; but –


What happens when you are facing down a dangerous game situation (i.e. a charge) and you accidentally double your double?

I know it happens; there have been too many reports of it happening at the DRSS events to say it never happens.

If you are unfortunate enough to do this, you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots and then, you have just “dumped†your load.


There is no third shot or fourth available. This is all of coursed based off the principle that there is never time for a third or fourth shot anyway, so that part really doesn’t matter.


You may be a split second slower with a bolt, but you are never going to run up against this situation. Am i totaly wrong in thinking this way or... any thoughts???

Brian

BRIAN,
If you double your double rifle in a legal self defense charge of 10 yds, what you will have is an Elephant, or Buffalo with two holes in him, in rapid succession! One will be on target, and the second will be about 2 to 5 inches higher!

It does happen on occasion, but in 49 years, (since 1958), of shooting, and hunting with double rifles it has happened to me exactly twice, and both times it was on a firing range, while shooting someone else’s rifle! I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone do it in a close conflict with DG!

In the scenario you suggest, the third, and fourth shots are certainly available, because the first two will normally slow, or turn the animal, giving you time to reload if you’re lucky, whether or not you are using a double rifle. If talking about elephant, the first two would likely turn him if not put him down. A buffalo or lion might be a different story. With those two, one shot is all you are likely to get off with a bolt rifle, and the likelihood of two will only be with the double. If the one from the bolt, and the two from the double do not do the trick, I’d say you are in deep do do!

The fact is at 10 yds, for me, the only rifle to have is a double that makes large blue rimmed holes!

See this link on why a double rifle is the best choice for up close dangerous game. If someone knows how to copy the post, I would appreciate it.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/660106106

JPK

With whatever you pick....PRACTICE RELOADING...especially the double. I did and it paid off on my buff. I managed to get off 4 shots from my 470 REAL fast. It wasn't an MS charge, but I stopped him at about 18 20 yards after he turned and decided he wanted a bit of us. So, again, PRACTICE.

And yes...the first 2 were fatal...but the buff didn't realize it and came anyway.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

Until I broke myself of using the front trigger first I had a problem with doubling my 470. The thing was the first shot was always on target and the second not far off. Since I now make the habit of shooting rear trigger first I have never doubled. I have NEVER 'short stroked' a bolt gun.

The 2 times I have double a double, the rounds have printed right next to each other, the left a touch higher than the right.

I think I would have still hit the animal. I did hit the target!

This sort of a woulda shoulda coulda scenario...I think you pick the best tool for the job (which is a double in the charge scenario) and then you design and mfg it so it is reliable...any thing can go wrong with any mechanical device.

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
What happens when you are facing down a dangerous game situation (i.e. a charge) and you accidentally double your double? .... If you are unfortunate enough to do this, you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots and then, you have just “dumped†your load.

Well I have had it happen to me, twice. Once in front a of a buffalo at 20 yards, and a cow elephant, face on at about 20 yards.

Both time the first aimed bullet went where it was supposed to go.

The buffalo in the shoulder and chest, dropping it down heavily. I don't know if the second bullet hit it or not. I suspect it did.

For the cow elephant, the bullet struck it where it was aimed, and travelled through the brain and exited out behind an ear. The second bullet must have flown over the top of the elephant.

Hopefully the elephant shot was captured on film. I haven't watched the film yet.

I did not find the recoil of a doubling .450 NE a problem, as in the hunt one is adrenalised.

I DO NOT like doubling, as you suggest, one barrel is wasted and it might be needed. If I use the rear trigger first the rifle does not double, but in the heat of the moment one can forget. Also it only happens in front of DG! The problem might be me slapping the second trigger on recoil, as I have felt this happen at least once. One of these days I will get the rifle re-checked over especially the rear trigger etc.

quote:

you can be assured you aren’t going to hit anything with either of those two shots and then, you have just “dumped†your load.

So that statement is simply incorrect, and if the first shot was missed, either the aim was off, or the shooter flinched.

If you miss a charging dangerous game animal with your first two shots, your PH will supply the third and maybe more.

Dave

I cannot figure out how a fellow doubles a rifle that is machnically sound, at least more than once. I read about it but just know that the fellows are not gripping the rifles adequately or are flinching so badly that they pull the trigger fingure twice, once to fire and a second time to double. Alternatively the rifle needs repair

I'm a lefty and shoot right handed rifles and shotguns (meaning front trigger right barrel) exclusivly and front rigger first without issue. My trigger fingure extends over the rear trigger and it is just no problem.

Mt double rifle has a front trigger pull of 3 1/4lbs and a rear pull of 3 3/4lbs, which is a hell of a lot lighter than most doubles.

If its your rifle doubling you ought to have it checked out.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:

What happens when you are facing down a dangerous game situation (i.e. a charge) and you accidentally double your double?

Better to not hunt with a double until you have enough experience with it that this does not happen. If it does happen in the field, it is operator error just like short stroking a bolt gun, which may result in Darwinian elimination of that hunter from the gene pool. Mother nature sheds no tears for those selected for Darwinian elimination.

Brian
I have had my 450 No2 double twice while shooting at game.

Both times it was operator caused not gun related.

Time No1. I had not had the double very long and I was spring turkey hunting with it.
Solids of course.

I was "camoed up" including camo gloves made out of nylon net. They were pretty "slippery".

This lease had a problem with armidillos, the land owner asked us to shoot all we saw.

So a armidillo approached me as I was sitting hidden in the brush. I was on my knees, I took aim and BOOM-BOOM. Because of the slick gloves the double slipped in my hands and I slapped the rear trigger.
The first shot did hit the armidillo, second did not.

Time No2.
I was pig hunting, sitting in a blind made up of brush but I did have a plastic chair with the legs cut off so I sat close to the ground.

A big pig walked past me on my right about 5 or 6 yards away. I waited until he was about 20 or 25 yards away before I raised the rifle. He continued to walk away until he was about 35 or 40 yards away, turned left and began to walk in a circle around me at about 40 yards.
Due to the brush I could not shoot until he had walked all the way around to my extreme left. As I could not pivot in the chair, I could only aim at him if the buttstock was out of my shoulder on my arm.

When I fired the shot 480, Woodleigh Soft, the recoil pushed me sideways causing me to slap the rear trigger as I swiftly used my right hand to keep me and the chair from tipping totally over on my right side.

The first shot struck the pig, the second one did not.

Lessons learned, The first shot will probably hit where aimed, do not use slippery gloves, and when shooting from unstable positions, use rear trigger first.

The first shot I ever fired in my life doubled.I was 14yrs old and it was a side by side 12 guage with two 2 3/4 mag shells.The spanish shotgun had a steel but plate and it was not pleasant.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I cannot figure out how a fellow doubles a rifle that is machnically sound, at least more than once. I read about it but just know that the fellows are not gripping the rifles adequately or are flinching so badly that they pull the trigger fingure twice, once to fire and a second time to double. Alternatively the rifle needs repair

Does this relate to my comments? ie a "fellow"? If so please address it properly. If not, no problem.

I don't know why people bother putting anything not ideal on the net as it always brings someone out to "kick the tyres". Better to do what 90% of people here do, which is bullshit about everything.

If it doesn't bother me, why is it anyone else's concern? I don't have a problem taking my rifle into virtually any close in encounter with dangerous game. I am not a perfectionist and need every last detail just so right, in theory only of course. Most times I use it I know remember to use the rear trigger first and then their is no problems.

"Flinching"?

Flinching persons don't hit what they are aiming at, two frontal elephant brain shots out of two shots.

quote:

I'm a lefty and shoot right handed rifles and shotguns (meaning front trigger right barrel) exclusivly and front rigger first without issue. My trigger fingure extends over the rear trigger and it is just no problem.

As you are aware a shotgun is completely different from a big bore rifle.

"mechanical"

The rear trigger of my rifle is very very heavy. So heavy that I find shooting that barrel accurately from the "bench" is difficult. Perhaps there is a reason for this. One day I will get around to checking it out. In the meantime I will just keep using it.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Better to do what 90% of people here do, which is bullshit about everything.

Actually on that subject. When I doubled my rifle on an elephant and afterwards said to the PH that is a bit embarassing to get on film. He mentioned PH that I would be amazed how many clients with double rifles actually do double them when hunting. He said it is far more common than not.

But just as we know "no client shoots from the back of a bakkie" (ie sarcasm), also none bring back honest accounts of doubling their rifle.

Also as the first poster indicated, it seems a fair amount of it goes on, at the DRSS shoots as well.

I have also heard that a great many double rifle shooters do use the rear trigger first for just this reason.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:

What happens when you are facing down a dangerous game situation (i.e. a charge) and you accidentally double your double?

which may result in Darwinian elimination of that hunter from the gene pool. Mother nature sheds no tears for those selected for Darwinian elimination.

Nitrox,

My comments were adressed to you and the other posters, you fellows, who somehow manage to double double rifles or shotguns. You were not the first poster to mention doubling, it is the topic.

There is no difference between a SxS, two trigger big bore double rifle and a SxS, two trigger double shotgun in function, and with my 10ga goose gun, no difference in recoil either. Familiarity with the type is best gained and maintained shooting shotguns rather than rifles, imo. Nothing to shooting a case of 250 12ga shotshells in a days outing. Not possible with a rifle.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how a fellow doubles a gun, really. One of my brothers can't shoot double trigger guns because he either beats his middle fingere or doubles and it has been this way since we were young.

Your point about hitting the target with the first shot is well taken. A fellow who doubles his rifle because of a flinch could not do that. Seems most of you fellows who have doubles rifles hit what you are shooting at with the first one so it seems to rule out a big flinch as the cause.

My rifle was delivered to me with the rear trigger pull lighter than the front. I wonder from time to time whether it was set up to shoot rear trigger first. I am accustomed to front first and lighter trigger pulls than the rifle had so I had JJ polish and hone them dowm to what they are today.

I still recall and appreciate your encouragement to take my rifle hunting on safari, despite predictions of doom from the armchair experts. As you said, it doesn't need to be perfect to be sufficient. Still, if your rifle has mechanical issues it ought to be gone over. What leads to a doubling could near as easily lead to an AD unless the rifle has intercepting sears. If it never doubles when you are pulling the rear trigger first then I suppose you might rule out mechanical issues, but how many times have you taken your car in for repair only to discover the recurring symptoms disapear on the way to the shop.

Don't try to lump me in with the bullshitters. Christ, I believe that I was the first person in the history of AR or NitoExpress.com to admit blowing a brain shot and an easy shot on a buff too. I post what I have done and learned and my opinions derived from that and what I have observed. Opinions may change over time, but based on emperical evidence and experience, not the whim of the moment.

JPK

JPK - ther is difference between double rifles and a shotgun, the first is the amount of recoil generated and the recoil type (i.e. fast vs slow) and the second is a thing call an interceptor sear. One of my 470 which is long gone lacked the sear and doubled frequently. (yes it is not fun) when it would the shots would go so fast that it wounded as one shot went off. At close range (15 yards or so) the bullets usually (USUALLY) would the right rarrel on target left barrel a bit high and to the right. fat a longer range (i.e. 75 yds) the left barrel would usually (USUALLY) be nowhere to be seen.

quote:

on't try to lump me in with the bullshitters

JPK,

Mate, Never my intent.

With that comment I was talking generally, the striving for perfection, what happened to the frontier spirit where one makes do, and still does well?

Look at some of the old timer White Hunters and elephant hunters. They often used what was available. I don't stress about these things.

As for my rifle, I am even minded as to whether it is my handling at fault, or mechanical. I will get it checked over one of these days. It is not consistent. But the doubling have all happened facing big game, never on targets. Maybe I hold the rifle in a lighter grip in the presence of big game, concentrating on the buffalo or elephant.

I pull the rear trigger first, I've never doubled one. It is all how you practice. Hell I'm left handed so I do everything backwards anyway.

505ED

Are you guys crazy?

Doubling has somehow taken on two definitions; at least they are not being differentiated in the posts.

One group is referring to the finger slipping off the front trigger and accidentally pulling the rear trigger. Hence, the recommendation to shoot the rear trigger first.

The other definition is mechanical problems, where the second hammer falls due to the recoil of the first shot. This of course needs to be fixed.

Big difference and dictates where the bullets might land.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Are you guys crazy?

Doubling has somehow taken on two definitions; at least they are not being differentiated in the posts.

One group is referring to the finger slipping off the front trigger and accidentally pulling the rear trigger. Hence, the recommendation to shoot the rear trigger first.

The other definition is mechanical problems, where the second hammer falls due to the recoil of the first shot. This of course needs to be fixed.

Big difference and dictates where the bullets might land.

WILL, is quite right, there are two kinds of what most commonly call "DOUBLEING", and they are not being differentiated here!

The only TRUE doubleing is a similtaneous fireings of both barrels. This can only be caused by a machinical problem with the rifle. The other which is not a true doubleing, is the one caused by one's finger slipping off the front trigger, and clipping the back one. these two shots are not similtaneous, but are very quick one, two shots. And he is correct again, in the opinion that the difference is one thing that determines where the shots may land.

At the 10 yd, self defence, distance, with a target as large as a Buffalo, the doubleing will likely hit the target,with both barrels, no matter which type it is. At longer range, however, a true doubleing may not hit the target at all, because the fireing of both barrels similtaneously, will not allow the barrels to flip properly away from it's partner on the other side. This causes the bullet's flight path take a line of sight the same as the conversion of the barrels, and cross at very short distance. This happens because the rifle only recoils back, and up, and nothing to the side. So the barrels may cross enough following the line of sight through the bores, crossing, and high! In this instance the recoil will be noticable, because the rifle comes straight back hard.

With the accidental triggering of the back trigger, the shots are proper for the right barrel, and if it is on target when the trigger is pulled, it will probably strike where you aimed,and at close range the second barrel will usually be high, and on the right of the first shot, but close enough to do damage to the target. This same type at 40 yds will find the right barrel usually on target as well, but the left barrel may miss all together,even on a large target. Because this type lets the rifle flip to the sides, you may not realize you have fired both barrels, and this may be a problem if the first shot doesn't stop or turn the target.

For the guy who can't stop triggering the second barrel, and if his rifle regulates properly, being fired that way, he should fire the rifle back trigger first! IMO, however, it is a far better idea to learn how to avoid doing this and fireing in the proper order. The reason I say this is, most shooting of double rifles is an instinctive affair, and if your rifle doesn't shoot right from long range with the back first order, then you are confusing your instincts, by shooting one way close, and another way at distance. That habit could cost you a good trophy, at best, and a problem of the HORN type at worst. As 500Grains says, in experience, and mistakes like these will let you test the DARWIN elimination factor, sooner or later!

Butchloc,

I have SxS shotguns with intercepting sears and SxS shotguns without. My rifle has intercepting sears, but many good, servicable rifles do not.

Intercepting sears will not prevent a double caused by shooter error, as occurs when the shooter inadvertently pulls the second trigger, since pulling the trigger moves the intercepting sear out of its intercept position.

Intercepting sears will prevent an accidental discharge that occurs when the primary sear is knocked out of its notch, as may occur when a rifle is dropped, or a double when the rifle is defective and the primary sear is nocked out of its notch by the recoil from the first barrel.

The recoil difference between my 10ga goose gun and my big bore double is insignificant. I feel just preceptable recoil shooting at game with either, but shooting stationary targets with either will get your attention.

If you want to become familiar with your SxS, double trigger big bore rifle, shoot your SxS, double trigger 12ga a few thousand times. Intersperse some practice with your rifle, maybe a couple of hundred rounds. Both will be second nature since each operates the same. If you feel a need to shoot your double rifle rear trigger first, do so with your shotgun as well.

NitoX,

But for the pursuit of perfection in elephant rifles, we would all still be shooting nineteen pound, single barrel, 4 bore, blackpowder, muzzle loaders!

Nothing wrong with the pursuit of perfection, even if it is unatainable.

Nothing wrong with making due, especially since the pursuit of perfection is an unatainable goal!

JPK

Good post and good replies for the most part.

I duck and goose hunted a light 3 inch chambered double 12 shotgun for years and never doubled it accidently. However, I have doubled rifles because of operator error 4 times. 3 times with a light 450NE #2 I owned and once with 577's 500NE. I never could be certain I wouldn't do it at a bad time with the 450 so I pulled the back trigger first. The trigger geometry was just not quite right with the 450 and I never could be certain I wouln't pull both unintentionally. With the 500 it was a bit long for me and I got careless. I felt like a fool doing so in front of 30 DRSS members and felt bad for having subjected Paul's rifle to that dumb move. Each time I have doubled the shots fired so close together they almost sounded as one. I don't think I ever hit what I was aiming at during any of these incidents, but the ranges were around 50 yards or at a target that had been shot numerous times. I certainly would not want it to happen when I was shooting at something that could rearrange my DNA.

I haven't shot more than a couple dozen doubles in my life but I have not seen one yet that the order of firing had any effect on regulation. It certainly hasn't on the 4 I own or have owned.

Perry

I am new to posting on this site, so please be gentle...As Barbara Walters said to the Shah in her famous interview.

I have hunted around a bit and have doubled a rifle on game exactly once. we were in Zim and trying to flush reedbuck. I wasn't too interested, but I went along as part of the line in very tall reeds. Suddenly, one flushed near me and I swung a Heym 375 SxS just like a shotgun on grouse. I fired and thought the recoil as a little heavy, but I assumed I hadn't shouldered the rifle properly. I heard only one bang! I then opened it and, surprise, surprise, two empties ejected. Clearly, I had put my second finger where I shouldn't. On the other hand, the reedbuck took at least one bullet hard and we found him 50 yards away.To this day, I wish I'd inspected the entry wound(s?) better. The exit was the size of your open hand, so both may have hit, but I can't prove it. Clearly operator error, but I did hit the target.