Lion breeders prepared to test canned hunting laws


South African lion breeders are prepared to go to court to test regulations on canned hunting

January 03, 2007, 17:00

South African lion breeders are prepared to go to court to test regulations on canned hunting, specifically of lions, Thys Mostert, the South African Predator Breeders' Association (SAPBA) deputy chairperson, said earlier today.

While the regulations, to come into force in March, do not ban lion hunting outright, they stipulate the circumstances under which it can take place. What they did not specify was the size of properties on which hunting would be allowed to take place, Mostert complained.

The new laws also required that lions be free-ranging for six-months before they could be hunted, he added.

Hunting camps need to be "reasonably big"
An environment department statement on the Biodiversity Act regulations on threatened and protected species noted only that hunting camps be "reasonably big", said Mostert.

"We have a problem with this. This could mean that certain people would hunt lions in a two hectare area. We want the area to be a thousand hectares," he said. Questioning the period for which the lions had to be free to roam, Mostert said lion breeders did not understand the provision. "Where does Van Schalkwyk (the environment and tourism minister) get the six months from? Why must other animals not walk six months before being hunted?" he asked.

Mostert said lion breeders were aware of the problems in the industry and wanted to resolve them. "Things need to happen in a proper and ethical manner," he said.

In the Free State alone, 88 to 100 people had bred lions in captivity in one way or another - some for tourism purposes, he said, estimating there were about 3 000 captive-bred lions in the country.

Ban not the answer: SAPBA
Mostert said the answer to the problem of canned hunting did not lie in a complete ban on lion hunting. "Then you have to ban all hunting. This includes buck hunting. Everything," he said.

Banning lion hunting altogether, would also leave the government open to claims for costly infrastructure put in place in line with legislation. The draft regulations on norms and standards for hunting in South Africa were put together by a panel of experts appointed by Van Schalkwyk.

The panel also recommended a prohibition on hunting in national and provincial parks. - Sapa

Up front: I detest any form of canned hunting and will have no part in it whatsoever.

However, I too would like to know 'how" or by what scientific or defendable thinking did the Minister determine that a lion should be free-ranging for 6 months before being hunted. Land owners are free to release species kudu, sable, roan and buffalo early in the morning before the clients arrive into a very small 'cage' and have them 'hunted' by noon. That's OK for some and perfectly legal! Why should lions be treated differently?

Yes, I know that the evil of curtailing canned hunting must start somewhere, and lion is a place to start.

IMHO the South African legislature [ANC] is acting like the winners of their terrorist war. They feel canned hunting should be curtailed? OK, I agree with them. But how to accomplish that? They try this by passing totally unenforcable legislation down our throats. With canned lion the 6 months may work, and even be enforced at great cost to the taxpayer. But how are they going to curtail other canned [which put and take hunting really is] hunting? By making more unenforcable rules? When are they [the terrorist ANC government] going to start to set the example of how the minds and actions of people can be changed by means orther than just their typical unenforcable legislation?

Please don't attack me for questioning the wisdom of the actions taken by government to prevent something I fully agree with should be prevented. Rather make suggestions of how the hunting industry should rid itself from such malpractices as canned and put and take hunting.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

I've just been struck by the last remark in Kathi's post: The banning of all hunting in National and Provincial Parks. Typical ANC stupidity! Ban hunting! OK.
Q: What do you do to control animal numbers in order to protect the park from degradation?
A: Catch them alive and sell on auctions.
Q: Who will buy these animals?
A: Hunting Outfitters who will release them for hunting by foreign clients!
Q: How will they [ANC] then control the 'put & take' hunting?
A: By enforcing more stupid legislation!

This brings to mind some Biblical verse about who to the land where a slave is the king!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

Gentlemen,

Why do we want to have so called "canned" hunting banned?

What purpose would that serve?

Those of us who dislike it, should not hunt what we consider "canned" hunts.

And those who wish to participate in these sorts of hunts should be allowed to do so.

What I fear is this going to be the beginning of regulations to ban hunting altogether as it is in South Africa - as Andrew has mentioned, most of the hunting doen in South Africa is NOT free roaming hunts at all. But on fenced farms.

I have hunted in South Africa twice, and will do any time the opportunity comes again.

I have no illusion of sort of hunts we have had there. but, still, we have enjoyed them.

My friend Walter said his hunt in South Africa was the best he had ever. Despite him hunting with us in Zimbabwe and Tanzania on numerous safaris.

He has a heart condition, and cannot walk all day chasing anything like the rest of us do.

So driving along and shooting an animal after walking a few yards from the truck was just the sort of hunt he wanted.

Hunting on a farm can be just as difficult - sometimes more so - than might be hunting free range animals. It all depends on the terrain.

Hunting is for everyone and agree with Saeed completely. Who is to say what type of hunting we should be praticing. As long as there are regulations put in place then to each his own. My choice is to hunt animals in fair chase conditions. That is what I enjoy. With that said. I know there is a place for those with physical handicaps that cannot do so. I would rather seem them enjoy what the good lord has created than not. Like I said. I choose not to participate in canned hunting. And I would not critisize someone that does so based on there phyiscal ability.

Just my opinion!

I think hunters should always remember the vast majority of people in the world are not hunters and even though most of these people are not hunters, they are not always against sport hunting when it's used as a true legitimate conservation tool and done in a fair and ethical manner. When a non hunter sees or reads about unethical hunting practices in South Africa like canned lion hunts in electrified pens, drugged animals and huge sums of money. They are easily converted to anti hunters! If you hate hunting and want to help the Antis stop all hunting in Africa, Don't change anything!

It seems that the USA is having similar problems. Was reading an article on the espn outdoors site on canned elk hunting. Thought you will all be intrested.

Not only South African problem. My main concern is the image that canned hunting portrays an the leverage it gives the bunny huggers.

I was talking to a farmer and he stated. What is the diffrence in breeding a lion and then having someone shoot it to breeding a cow or sheep and having someone shoot it at the abattoir? You cannot argue with that.

Both are utilising the land and generating income. Wich is more humane breeding a cow in the fed lot with no grass and plenty of food to be shoved in a truck all squashed up and the shot with no where to go. Or a lion in an enclosure?

puts a diffrent spin on things.

Ethically and morally they are totally different!!

Cows, Goats, Chickens are domesticated animals raised to be slaughtered for their meat.

Lions are raised in small electrified enclosures until they are deemed " Trophies" and then they are shot by foreign shooters ( I don't want to call them hunters) Only the hide and skull is saved and shipped home as " trophies" Generating huge sums of money but contributing nothing to conservation.

Andrew- The dirty little secret about the 6 month free ranging portion of the new regs is that after a life in a cage, these cats can't hunt. And it should also be noted that they are usually released individually, not as a pride. So, yes, these new regs are cannot be enforced. Reluctantly, I'm for calling it what it is and letting it go at that. No pun intended.

Crane- Either I missed something in your thread or I am just too dumb to follow it.You say you are calling it what it is, what is it that you are calling it?

I don't care if someone wants to spend $20K to shoot a lion in an enclosure. If that's how they enjoy spending their money that's their business.
It takes some pressure off the wild lions that are left in Africa.
I surely can't condem the landowner that's trying to make some money. Anyone whom farms or raises cattle anywhere in the world knows there is damm little margin of profit in it. If that landowner finds a way to operate inside the law I see no difference then if he was raising beef to be sold to the highest bidder.
With that said even if I had the $40-$60 K to hunt a lion along with other DG on a 21 day trip I still wouldn't kill a lion anywhere.

How are you going to prove a particular animal has been roaming around for 6 months? GPS collars? Give me a break. It is a totally unenforceable piece of legislation.

No hunting at all in parks anymore? Population controls will still have to be used.It will not matter if it is either culling or capture and transport. It will cost money instead of raising money. I suppose of course they could let the inevitable starvation and disease cause the populations to crash. That is if they are willing to gamble with the viablility of the entire ecosystem.

I do not know the answers, but it should be left to those in RSA to solve their problems. All foreign visitors want is to come to RSA and enjoy themselves. Some are Hunters, some are shooters and a few are just killers. Unfortunately, the eyes of the world are upon us all. I hope a solid solution is found. RSA is a wonderful country and I hope to visit there many more times.

Eyedoc- What I was refering to are the seemingly obligatory 2-3x/year articles that depict the testosterone charged RSA lion hunts. These are usually posed as a raiding cattle killer in from Botawana or some such tripe. I am not saying that a canned hunt is without danger. I am saying that it is, in truth, a hunt for a pen raised apex predator that cannot fend for itself after being released. It in no way resembles a wild lion in a natural setting. Yet time after time it is sold to the client as such and if you believe what you read they wholeheartedly buying into the story. If you followed the thread referencing Pat Lefemine's hunt with Madiagama you get the picture of what I'm talking about. Here is a really bright guy either buying into the fable or trying to snooker us. Let's just call it canned and be good with that.

Just something for the pot.

If this type of shooting means that there is a higher population of lions and thus a more diverse genetic pool overall. Is this not good for the conservation of the species?

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
There is a total loss of perspective regarding the issue of penned animals and their hunting in South Africa.

It goes back way back to a time when there was almost no game left in the wild. Rinderpest killed off just about everything and with that the natural barriers to human habitation of the last wild places..... Some years on the conquest of Malaria sealed the fate of a place the natives called the "mananga" or true wilderness. And with that hunting almost did the dirty deed of wiping out the last of our game populations.

In the 50's and 60's it was private farmers and conservationists, mostly affluent people with expendable income that started converting former farmed land to game ranches.... the law like the the act no 17 of 1967 dictated for purposes of vetinary health that game be separated from farm land by fences...... not for purpose of canning animals for hunting but because of the various game born diseases that would endanger a countries whole domestic animal production.

And from this arose a problem..... with all this successful conservation, unpresidented when compared to the rest of Subsaharan Africa we sat with game populations that needed to be culled and sadly they were by necessity behind fences.

As to the Lion, well what do they do for a living, eat once every three days, sleep around under trees and mate.... and the latter they do very very well, in fact so well that it becomes a problem.

As game ranchers we also learnt that in terms of a tourism drawcard nothing but nothing beats the lion. It is hands down the most lucrative animal in terms of ecotourism value there is.... and they breed and breed..... what to do with them?

Now if someone has an answer let me know, cause we have wild lion and they do the same....... they breed and breed and play havoc with game numbers.

You have a problem......The fact is that less and less International hunters will hunt these lions, simply because of the issue surrounding shooting an animal in a small enclosure. SO what did SCI do? They said they do not regonice lion from SA. Not even the truly wild ones that one can HUNT in the conservancies next to the Kruger. If SCI say no, then your "done and dusted".

Another problem...What will happen when these lions start catching Buff and Sable/Roan or other "expensive animals when they "free roam" the property? They can't be allowed, becasue the game rancher will not loose a R65k Buff or Sable a week. Solution? Keep the lions in a "smaller" camp and feed them.

Lions need a minimum territory to roam, like most predators. I believe for a pride of 1 male and 4 females, this is about 10 000ha....(i am not sure, what I have been told). Get them on farms big enough like this, hunt them on foot, and ask little money for them. This way they might just flourish. You will have to be prepared to foot the dinner bill for them of course.

Crane-Thank you for clarifying your position.

I waffle on this matter from day to day.I too see some come back from RSA with their tale of killing a cattle raiding lion that just came over from....,and think ,"somebody needs to put a stop to this." Not necessarily the killing of canned lions but the fraud that so often goes with it.

If people want to go to RSA and shoot a lion in a pen then I have no problem with that as long as they are aware of the truth about what is actually going on.If the lion has been free to move about on the property for a year and fend for itself then say so.If it was brought in last night and turned loose in a drug induced stupor then tell the client that also.

I am not opposed to shooting lions under any of these scenarios.At least not to the degree that I am opposed to the fraud that accompanies so many of these hunts.

Some may say that people should know better by now.But still there are so many going over for the first time, they are not frequenting this website or others like it, and they are easily duped.That is what I am opposed to.

Let's correct two BLATANT MISCONCEPTIONS right now that seem to be ongoing on this thread and which continue to raise their ugly heads from time to time on AR (usually every time a lion hunt of ANY sort is mentioned): 1: SCI DOES RECOGNIZE lions killed in South Africa. Take a look at their SCI Trophy Records lisitings on their website for yourselves; 2: And, in spite of some's ongoing and unfounded unwillingness to believe it to be an ACTUAL FACT, there are indeed free ranging WILD LIONS, as found in the bordering OPEN conservancies next to and adjacent with Kruger, as Infinito and many others have correctly stated here on this thread and previous threads, that are hunted and killed. Those lions are not CANNED HUNT lions, in spite of all of the armchair experts' blustery pontifications, opinions and misguided statements. Moreover, if you believe everything that you read from all of the so-called lion "experts" here on AR, a significant number of which have NEVER hunted and/or killed lion, all of South African lion as well as all other hunting there is CANNED simply because of high fences, and hunting anything there is not really hunting at all. My answer to all of the so called "experts" is simply this: Don't hunt South Africa. Stay the hell away. However, it is also an undisputed fact that South Africa is THE BIGGEST African hunting destination on the entire continent, in spite of what many may say or believe. And, for those "experts" who have themselves hunted various high fenced areas in the US, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia and elsewhere in Africa, as well as in Europe, and don't want to admit it here on AR, and still want to condemn all South African hunting, where and when does the hypocrisy end?

UEG- You seem very well informed. Please tell- what would you estimate the total number of free-ranging wild lions taken by sport hunters in RSA each year?

Crane-To answer your question, yes I consider myself well informed on this issue, but I would hate to disappoint you with an estimate, because it would be an estimate only, and not the exact number. Therefore, we will leave that issue to you or to someone else who feels it imperative to obtain that number for their own gratification, which I am sure would be provided to you by the game department in the Limpopo Province, where the permits were issued and the lions taken tracked in their paperwork. The point that you seem to be missing is this: whether it's one, one hundred or one thousand doesn't change the fact that free ranging lions are indeed hunted and killed every year on the conservancies with open borders to Kruger. So are cape buffalo and elephant, as well as many other species. What really does matter here is the fact that these animals are indeed free ranging, like it or not, and the hunts for them are not canned as many would believe to be the case with all lion hunts in South Africa.

World wide sport hunting is doomed by the actions of a few people. Is it that hard to understand why the Antis are winning?

I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see the serious problem with these slaughter houses in the field. Anyone who had EVER had a real hunting experience knows what I mean...and I guarantee you one thing...none of these semi-tame cat killers (not hunters) are going to come home and say "yessir, walked thru the breeding pens and picked out a really nice one...paid my hard earned $$$ and had them release him into a little bigger pen so I could come home and admit I'm a worthless piece of shite and unable to be a real man, and try it fair chase.". I guarantee you one other thing, they are going to want to get them in the record books, regardless of the cost and circumstances! These people are a tremendous negative image for real hunters. If I ran that country, I would require them to strip naked and be released at the same time and place as these pet lions with a Leatherman Supertool...now that would be a real hunt!

Remind me never to book a hunt in RSA. Sounds about as exciting as going over to the local slaughterhouse and shooting a few dozen range bulls, except I can keep some of the meat.

sign me,
Disgusted

Rich

Well said Use Enough Gun.

Way back in 1983 I did a military camp at Pontdrift a couple of km west of the confluence of the Shashe and Limpopo rivers. We regularly heard the Lions roar at night and the one farmer did shoot 2 Lionesses that were on his property. All came from Botswana.

There are a lot of free roaming Lions available in RSA and I have access to them. What do annoy me is when lies are told to clients about the true nature of a hunt and a canned lion is shot. It is everybody's own choice what trophy he wants. If he is happy to shoot a canned Lion it is his choice, as long as he knows it. It is wrong to mislead a client that he will hunt a free roaming Lion when it is a pen raised animal.

It has all to do with ethics and honesty on the outfitters side. When a client knows what is going on it is up to him to decide and it is then his own indada.

No Robert Johnson, it’s not hard to understand why the anti’s are winning. They are winning because of people like you and Idaho Sharpshooter.

Every time someone “from within†a interest group suggests/agrees to legislation restricting the activities of such an interest group, those anti the interest group are the soul winners. The condemning “from within boys†are useful idiots to the anti’s.

You are not advancing the cause of hunting or gunownership by ranting and raving about the need for more incremental restrictive legislation, or by condemning the actions of others. Supporting legislation to force others to hold the same views as you, or mirror you actions, are not just arrogant – it’s ultimately dictatorial!

If you want to ensure that future generations are brought up in a gun free and hunting free world, continue with your ignorant crusade fellas.

PS. Idaho Sharpshooter – when ever you feel the urge to book a hunt in South Africa, please call me. I will gladly remind to book somewhere else. It would be a win-win situation for you and the SA hunting industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
1: SCI DOES RECOGNIZE lions killed in South Africa. Take a look at their SCI Trophy Records lisitings on their website for yourselves;

ueg,
yes your correct sci does recognize them as "trophies".

however, why do they list them separately from say a lion killed in botswana ? they are the same specie ! could it be that , we'll use the word "overwhelming", majority of the s.a. "trophies" are killed in canned situations after being pen raised ?

since your well informed ,please school us on this issue.always good to get new info.

rowland ward doesn't recognize them period due to unethical shooting of animals.

sorry to stir the pot guys, but i have to agree with Idaho sharpshooter,,,,, only exception being hunters who physically cannot hunt free range(handicapped etc). Hunting free range makes you appreciate the trophy, where I cannot understand how someone claims "hard earned trophy's" when shot behind high wire.
Having said that, banning any form of hunting is only another nail in our hunters coffin.

For those who want to hunt behind wire...so be it...just dont claim to have taken them "fair chase"

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see the serious problem with these slaughter houses in the field. Anyone who had EVER had a real hunting experience knows what I mean...and I guarantee you one thing...none of these semi-tame cat killers (not hunters) are going to come home and say "yessir, walked thru the breeding pens and picked out a really nice one...paid my hard earned $$$ and had them release him into a little bigger pen so I could come home and admit I'm a worthless piece of shite and unable to be a real man, and try it fair chase.". I guarantee you one other thing, they are going to want to get them in the record books, regardless of the cost and circumstances! These people are a tremendous negative image for real hunters. If I ran that country, I would require them to strip naked and be released at the same time and place as these pet lions with a Leatherman Supertool...now that would be a real hunt!

Remind me never to book a hunt in RSA. Sounds about as exciting as going over to the local slaughterhouse and shooting a few dozen range bulls, except I can keep some of the meat.

sign me,
Disgusted

Rich

What is so manly about shooting a wild free roaming Lion from a blind at a bait. The ph sets up the baits, you check it everyday with a vehicle, once hit, a blind is build downwind, you sit and wait in dead quite and you shoot the Lion. Is this not just another canned hunt with a different colour? Is that not also a slaughter house? Once the Lion comes in he has no way of escaping, he does not even know you are there.

There are some hunters that are prepared to shoot pen raised Lions that was released on a farm, and ussually it is reasonably large properties and you must then find the Lion. What is your definoition oof a small enclosure

I do not for one moment agree that it is right, but shooting a pen raised Lion do take presure of the wild Lion population. There are more than enough evidence that the Lion populations in a lot of the African states are declining due to pressure from humans, TB and the hunting of pre-matured Lions. There is no 100% sure way of determining a Lions age. The only 100% ways are by collaring him at birth and check him or by using the 2nd top premolar as described by Ann Cheater in her thesis for her M Tech degree. If you want it I can forward it to you. Ann is one of my daughters lecturers.

Get your facts together and make sure you have all the information before you start whinning.

I get very upset with people allways attacking RSA hunting and who has always a lot to say even if they do not really know what is really going on here. Where did the demand for canned Lions, both pen raised and baited, came from, not from Africans, but now you are bitching about it.

Enough said, I rest my case

Sorry UEG, you are right, they are listed, BUT in their own seperate section becasue of this issue. I was informed at an SCI auction that SA lions are not recognised by SCI, when we offered one to hunt.

I agree, there are a lot of uninfomred statements being made , by people that know NOTHING of the subject.

IT's a pitty, as some of the best free ranging lion hunting can be done in South Africa.

Jaco- Would you have access to the paper trail UEG has mentioned? What I was told by someone in the industry is that it is a very small number- perhaps as low a half a dozen. When this subject has come up before no one seems to be able to produce a number. Or wants to. It seems to all go back to the MacDonald debacle with the hidden camera.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:


I get very upset with people allways attacking RSA hunting and who has always a lot to say even if they do not really know what is really going on here. Where did the demand for canned Lions, both pen raised and baited, came from, not from Africans, but now you are bitching about it.

Enough said, I rest my case

jaco,

your arguement regarding demand carries the same weight as a columbian drug lord justifying his existence because some drug addict wants his dope. IS IT ETHICAL OR MORAL ?

just because "a few big shot cocktail party types" will lay out huge dollars for a canned hunt doesn't make it right.cut off the supply,the demand will go away.

" no dope" equates "no addicts"

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Sorry UEG, you are right, they are listed, BUT in their own seperate section becasue of this issue. I was informed at an SCI auction that SA lions are not recognised by SCI, when we offered one to hunt.

I agree, there are a lot of uninfomred statements being made , by people that know NOTHING of the subject.

IT's a pitty, as some of the best free ranging lion hunting can be done in South Africa.

infinito,

can anyonyone in south africa actually document where wild lions are hunted ?

it just seems to me van schalkwyk should appoint a qualified govt. official and invite maybe cites,usfw,an e.u. rep and so forth to go out and actually verify wild lion hunts.

the shady outfits could get kicked out on their bums and this nasty controversy would go away.

of course everything would have to be made public or it would have no credibility.

and of course s.c.i. would be required to keep their noses out of it.

Elkhunts,
Yes it is true what you say and I am not repeat not in favour of canned hunting and I have a big problem with operators who bullshit prospecting clients about the nature of the hunt.

I get upset about people who makes blanket allegations and makes it look as if all operators in RSA are participating in shady unethical hunting. We have a great country where there is a lot of good hunting. In the past I have openly condemned canned and put and take hunts and I will keep on doing it. I think it is very unfair to make blanket statements concerning hunting in RSA.

Crane,
It will not be easy to get a paper trail out of Nature Conservation, but I am sure with lots of effort one will be able to get the info.

Yes the McDonald thing did stir up things a lot, I do not agree with what happened, but their was a lot of bullshitting from the so called hunter and the film crew. McDonald was led into a trap and yes he did fell for it. It was a big setup, that did a lot of harm to hunting in general.

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunts:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:


I get very upset with people allways attacking RSA hunting and who has always a lot to say even if they do not really know what is really going on here. Where did the demand for canned Lions, both pen raised and baited, came from, not from Africans, but now you are bitching about it.

Enough said, I rest my case

jaco,

your arguement regarding demand carries the same weight as a columbian drug lord justifying his existence because some drug addict wants his dope. IS IT ETHICAL OR MORAL ?

just because "a few big shot cocktail party types" will lay out huge dollars for a canned hunt doesn't make it right.cut off the supply,the demand will go away.

" no dope" equates "no addicts"

Who makes the decision of whether any sort of hunting either ethical or moral?

A lot of people believe that using rifles with scopes is unethical. Others think bow hunters are being unethical by building hides next to water holes.

I think we should leave this question to the individual concerned.

Ultimately, we should stand against ANY sort of banning in hunting. This will only lead to our sport being regulated by those who have absolutely no idea what hunting is.

I especially deslike those who preach all sorts of ethics in print, while themselves do the opposite.

This is not meant for you elkhunts.

It is meant for those who like to shoot from the back of the truck, wound their animal, and sit by while the PH chases it and kill it.

Of course, a different story is told once they are back at camp.

I have always maintained that I would not hunt lion in South Africa. But that is my own personal decision. As was mentioned above, shooting lion on bait is not hunting by any stretch of the imagination - the same goes for leopards.

What do we call it if one is driving along in countries like Zimbabwe or Tanzania, and one sees a good trophy standing right by the track?

Doesn't one shoot it?
Or do some decide this not hunting, leave it for next day so they can track it and shoot it?

I think we can have an endless argument on this, and never see eye to eye.

The point is here that this sort of hunting in South Africa was rammed home by a BBC program - made by anti-hunters. Who would love to see the day ALL hunting is banned.

I once had a discussion with a lady who did not like hunting. The subject of our discussion was elephant hunting.

In the end, she said she would rather see no elephants around, rather than see them being hunted.

THAT is how much anti-hunter love animals.

jaco,

i have noticed you personally condemn the canned hunts and i certainly feel the same way.

i have met many in s.a. in the industry who are trying to do the right thing.( i have unfortunately met some who should spend the rest of their lives bouncing off duiker horns running across the veldt).

south africa needs to sweep behind their door before someone else does it for them.it will be far less costly and continue to make the hunting industry viable and profitable.

i've never hunted much less shot a lion , i'm having a time trying to decide if its worth the price since im not all that keen on a lion anyway , but if i'm gonna shell out 10's of thousands of dollars i want a real wild lion born and raised in the wild , not in a fence.

by cleaning out the canned hunts ,the remaining hunts will surely be in more demand and cost more.that may put it over the top for me,but if thats the case ,so be it.

We need to stand united on this issue, as hunters we all should support or hobby. I've hunted Kodiak bear on Kodiak Island, Elk in the rugged Bitterroots of Idaho, Moose, Black bear, Mule Deer, Blacktail deer, whitetail deer, and Pronghorn Antilope. All the above have been free ranging animals. My life dream was to hunt a Kodiak bear, and then a African Lion. I hunted my Lion in 2004 with Peter Harris in tha Kalahari region of South Africa. This by far was the most exciting, and perhaps the most physical hunt I have been on. We ran into two lions in thick cover, and the tracking was both draining, and intense. I am very proud of my big male lion, and would think that any other of my Brother hunters would feel the same.