Canned lion hunting not illegal
17/09/2008 21:43 - (SA)

From News 24

Cape Town - Most of the more than 700 lions shot and killed in South Africa by foreign hunters last year were "captive-bred" animals, the Department of Environmental Affairs confirmed on Tuesday.

It was reacting to an earlier statement by Animal Rights Africa (ARA), which warned that "since 2005, the number of lions killed by the canned predator industry has doubled".

The department said lions were not listed as "large predators" under current Threatened or Protected Species Regulations (TOPS).

"The regulation of prohibited activities involving listed large predators is thus not applicable to lions... Most of the lions hunted during 2007 were captive-bred lions," director regulation and monitoring services Bonani Madikizela said in an e-mail sent to Sapa.

According to a recent written reply by Environment Minister Marthinus van Schalkwyk to a Parliamentary question, a total of 702 lions were "hunted by foreign clients in each province in 2007".

The majority, 637, were killed in North West province.

Canned hunting growing rapidly

Earlier on Tuesday, ARA said canned lion hunting - a controversial practice whereby animals are bred and raised in captivity before being released onto game farms to be shot by hunters - was growing rapidly.

"The general public, both local and international, cannot be criticised for thinking canned hunting is a thing of the past.

"But nothing can be further from the truth. Far from being controlled, the canned hunting industry... is growing exponentially," the NGO said.

Legal action

Madikizela said a decision was taken by his department late last year to "temporarily exclude" lions from the TOPS definition of large predators, following legal action from the SA Predator Breeders Association (SAPBA).

"It was decided that by changing the definition, the implementation of the Threatened or Protected Species Regulations will not be jeopardised, as SAPBA wanted to stop the implementation of TOPS," he said.

Last year, Van Schalkwyk announced the regulations, which he said were aimed at "putting an end, once and for all, to the reprehensible practice of canned hunting".

They originally sought to outlaw the hunting of captive-bred large predators, including lions, within two years of their release on a property for the purpose of hunting.


According to Van Schalkwyk's reply to the Parliamentary question, tabled in August, foreign hunters last year also hunted and killed - among other animals - 27 elephant, 56 hippo and 156 white rhino.
Also included on the list of hunted species were 15 yellow mongoose, a scrub and grasslands mammal that weighs about 500g, four aardwolf and 370 vervet monkeys.

how in the bloody hell could a lion not be considered a large predator? it's the largest mammal predator on th African continent.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
how in the bloody hell could a lion not be considered a large predator? it's the largest mammal predator on th African continent.

My thoughts exactly....

quote:

"large predators" under current Threatened or Protected Species Regulations (

I take it means that lions are numerous enough not to need the protection of being covered by the Threatened or Protected Species Regulations...

Also the article, especially the quote by the ARA, implies that all the captive bred lions taken were as a result of "canned hunts"..I'm not sure thats the case, but that will depend on a persons definition of a canned hunt of course..

Regards,

Pete

you can damn well believe that there are VERY few lions roaming around RSA that were not at the very least born in captivity. they may have been "freed" at a relatively young age but even then i highly doubt it. you read so much crap here and elsewhere about them wandering across the Limpopo from Bots., etc but 99% of the time that is BS to convince the client that it isn't a canned hunt. If you spend much time driving around South Africa you realize that true wilderness is the exception rather than the rule. the area bordering the Kalahari Transfrontier Park is probably as close as you can come to finding free range lions and even that is hit and miss. lions simply eat too much valuable plains game to just turn them loose on a game ranch for 1-2 years( even a large game ranch) and let them eat $ 1200 kudu, gemsbok, zebra, etc. sure an occassional lion will wander in from somewhere out side the country but not in dependable enough numbers to market hunts with any reasonable expectation of success.

In 2005, I had a PH who will remain unnamed, try to sell me a PAC lion. It may have been one who wandered across the Limpopo, or it may not. It was my first African hunt and I was pretty green, but I turned it down because I really didn't trust the guy completely. Glad I made that decision.

That just pisses my off, idiots, not a large predator.....

What a cowardly practice.

That's Africa. Human life is cheap as dirt. How do you think they feel about animals? It's all about money, as usual.

I guess I have a different take on this than most of you. As far as I'm concerned I have no problem with canned Lion hunting. I'm going to Zambia with DuPlooy's outfit so I personally don't want to shoot a captive Lion. That being said, if you have canned Lion shooting, it will reserve the more expensive "real" hunt for those who want the experience not just to have old Simba on the wall. There are only so many wilderness hunts out there; why not leave the medal seekers their own way out?

Obviously I could care less if some guy gets a SCI medal for a lion he walked up to and shot in a pen, or for that matter if he just had it anesthetized and skinned. He didn't have the experience, and its up to his own personal ethics if he wants to brag it up. Big deal. Hunting is a personal experience and why do so many of us get all worked up about what the other guy does?

At least with the SA game farm Lions the world will not be without a supply of these great cats. As long as they have value they will be around and the genetic diversity will exist. How many Lions will there be if we ban game farm animals and the shooting thereof? Quite a few less. Worrying what the antis think of this whole business is somewhat worthless- if they are against killing a domestic Lion, do you think they are for killing a wild one?

Charles,

Well said! Personally I don't want to shoot one of the lions raised just to be shot but I honestly don't care if someone else does.

One thing that gave me pause happened about the time it seemed inevitable that canned lion hunting would be abolished in RSA. I was able to visit a breeding facility for these lions. The operation was large, clean and the lions were well taken care of but what would happen to those 300 lions if hunting was stopped? They would all have to be destroyed since zoos don't need them, they really can't fend for themselves in the wild even if they were allowed to be released and the owner can't run the facility strictly for altruistic motives. Hmmmm!

Mark

Mark Absolutley true,

I can at this stage still say I have not hunted lion with a client in South Africa, YET ??

Why the yet, I have spoken too a breeder or two that said they will shoot all their lions if the hunting is banned ? kill off more than x amount of lions, because they would have lost heir monetary value by the stroke of a pen,

Now I have said it before , as things go Lion numbers are dwindling rapidly everywhere, let them breed and shoot them, and protect the wild lions for our kids too see in the wild places of africa

I disagree with the practice of releasing the lion on the morning of the hunt still drugged beyond help, and then shot that too me is wrng, but bred and released a decent time before the hunt so all drugs worn of completely yeah if that rocks your boat do it, if not book a hunt in the wilderness areas of africa and do it there

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I guess I have a different take on this than most of you. As far as I'm concerned I have no problem with canned Lion hunting. I'm going to Zambia with DuPlooy's outfit so I personally don't want to shoot a captive Lion. That being said, if you have canned Lion shooting, it will reserve the more expensive "real" hunt for those who want the experience not just to have old Simba on the wall. There are only so many wilderness hunts out there; why not leave the medal seekers their own way out?

Obviously I could care less if some guy gets a SCI medal for a lion he walked up to and shot in a pen, or for that matter if he just had it anesthetized and skinned. He didn't have the experience, and its up to his own personal ethics if he wants to brag it up. Big deal. Hunting is a personal experience and why do so many of us get all worked up about what the other guy does?

At least with the SA game farm Lions the world will not be without a supply of these great cats. As long as they have value they will be around and the genetic diversity will exist. How many Lions will there be if we ban game farm animals and the shooting thereof? Quite a few less. Worrying what the antis think of this whole business is somewhat worthless- if they are against killing a domestic Lion, do you think they are for killing a wild one?

A South African PH told me the canned lion hunts there were going for $#0,000.

I also heard about a case where, a few years ago, a guy paid $70,000 for a fee on a wild lion in Botswana. He negotiated a second one for his family at $120,000.

Is the end of wild lion hunting approaching?

Several years ago, I picked up a trip from Amsterdam to Joburg on an SAA cargo contract. The AMS cargo rep came up into the cockpit and told me that I had three mature lions in the forward belly cargo compartment. They were on loan from the Amsterdam zoo to the Joberg zoo. Not being familiar with African hunting in those days, but being intimately familiar with much of Africa, it struck me as very strange that the Dutch would be loaning lions to the South Africans. It still does. This occurred in 1996, or 1997.

Personally I think it's an abhorrant practice and the people who are involved in it, including the customers, should be ashamed of themselves.

I think the issues go a lot deeper than many people think. The antis are always gonna be out to ban hunting in all its forms and one of our best defenses is that we hunt ethically and use hunting as a conservation tool. All the while canned hunting is available, they can use it as a weapon against us to get not only that but also other forms of hunting banned. Therefore, the the sooner we ban it for ethical reasons, the better it'll be for all of us.

The practicalities of banning it however are difficult. First of all, how do you define canned hunting? - Once you have a set definition then the Lion farmers will be trying to get around it and even if you do ban the practice, you can bet your life a large number of large wooden crates will be finding their way across borders etc. - These blokes can hardly be trusted to behave ethically can they.........

As for genetic diversity, I don't really think that is a valid argument. Firstly, the 'canned genes' are outside of the wild pool and modern technology now means we can keep the genetic diversity in a frozen test tube.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Personally I think it's an abhorrant practice and the people who are involved in it, including the customers, should be ashamed of themselves.

I think the issues go a lot deeper than many people think. The antis are always gonna be out to ban hunting in all its forms and one of our best defenses is that we hunt ethically and use hunting as a conservation tool. All the while canned hunting is available, they can use it as a weapon against us to get not only that but also other forms of hunting banned. Therefore, the the sooner we ban it for ethical reasons, the better it'll be for all of us.

The practicalities of banning it however are difficult. First of all, how do you define canned hunting? - Once you have a set definition then the Lion farmers will be trying to get around it and even if you do ban the practice, you can bet your life a large number of large wooden crates will be finding their way across borders etc. - These blokes can hardly be trusted to behave ethically can they.........

As for genetic diversity, I don't really think that is a valid argument. Firstly, the 'canned genes' are outside of the wild pool and modern technology now means we can keep the genetic diversity in a frozen test tube.

Shakari<

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Lest us not get carried away supporting the antis.

They would wish to see the end of ANY sort of hunting.

Canned or otherwise.

If we look a bit deeper, most of the hunting in South Africa is canned.

One hunts on a farm, many of which get the animals replinished each season.

If one has an issue with this, don't hunt there.

But don't side withe idiots who want to stop us all from hunting anything.

It all boils down to choice.

And I enjoyed hunting on farms in South Africa as much as I have enjoyed hunting plains game anywhere.

But, I do have my own choice, in that I will not hunt a lion or buffalo in South Africa.

Anyone else who has no issue is welcome to hunt them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Lest us not get carried away supporting the antis.

They would wish to see the end of ANY sort of hunting.

Canned or otherwise.

If we look a bit deeper, most of the hunting in South Africa is canned.

One hunts on a farm, many of which get the animals replinished each season.

If one has an issue with this, don't hunt there.

But don't side withe idiots who want to stop us all from hunting anything.

It all boils down to choice.

And I enjoyed hunting on farms in South Africa as much as I have enjoyed hunting plains game anywhere.

But, I do have my own choice, in that I will not hunt a lion or buffalo in South Africa.

Anyone else who has no issue is welcome to hunt them.

My take on this is if anyone who believes he may be a hunter, understands that the quarry species whatever it may be should have a sporting chance, either to escape scot free, or to turn on the hunter if it is capable of that action, If granting this simple condition is beyond you, then you are certainly not a "hunter" in the accepted understanding of the term, sorry if this might make me an anti- collaborator, but hunting is hunting , killing for the sake of killing isn't hunting, Steven.

Steve,

Although I've never met Saeed, I do know quite a lot about him............ and I can assure you that he's probably one of the most genuine hunters in the truest sense of the word you'll ever meet.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Steve,

Although I've never met Saeed, I do know quite a lot about him............ and I can assure you that he's probably one of the most genuine hunters in the truest sense of the word you'll ever meet.

I appologise if It sounded like I was having a poke at anyone in particular, not meant to offend anyone , just holding forth on hunting , if it's worth doing, do it right,surely it's man against beast?, The anti's have more leverage against us on canned hunts than any other set-up surely?Steven.

Steve,

That was the point I was trying to make. I personsally believe that if we don't police ourselves, some other bugger will do it for us...... and they won't be hunters!

I have to wonder whether any of these "nimrods" who shoots a captive-bred, recently released, game farm lion ever tells the truth about his hunt.

Not likely, I would think, as this kind of thing is not comparable to the fair chase hunting of a free ranging wild lion. Rather, canned lion shooting stinks of fakery, falsehood and fraud.

Apart from its unsporting and unethical aspects, however, another thing I have against this canned lion business is that it gives the antis some very powerful ammunition to use against us. It cannot be defended in any coherent way, and our only response must be to condemn it and those who do it.

But IMHO, we hunters unfortunately do not police ourselves or our sport as well as we should.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I have to wonder whether any of these nimrods who shoots a captive-bred, recently released, game farm lion ever tells the truth about his hunt.

Not likely, I would think, as this kind of thing is not comparable to the fair chase hunting of a free ranging wild lion. Rather, canned lion shooting stinks of fakery and fraud.

Apart from its unsporting and unethical aspects, however, another thing I have against this canned lion business is that it gives the antis some very powerful ammunition to use against us. It cannot be defended, IMHO, and our only response must be to condemn it and those who do it.


But we hunters unfortunately do not police ourselves or our sport as well as we should.

Having sat awhile & cogitated over this recurring phrase "We hunters don't police ourselves", It seems to me that most "hunters", tend to be happy with their own company, out in the wilds, at one with nature & therefore do not have the capacity to unite fully, to bring to bear the force that they ultimately would have, if cohesion was a quarry species, I'm not saying we are islands, but we just get on O.K. with or without companions!, we are our own worst enemies!

That is true, Steve. We hunters are individualists and tend to fly solo as a rule.

And no one likes to stick his neck out and criticize, no matter how much it may be warranted.

Still, there are many large world hunting organizations, and these could do a lot more to condemn this practice, IMHO.

On one of the "Bubba" networks, this AM, TAM safaris was featured. It wasa lion hunt in RSA. They showed stalks of five different males without a lioness seen. At no time was it mentioned the story behind seeing five mature lions in RSA without the sighting of a female. And here I come down on Steve's side; that the anti folk are given a free shot at all of us each time this happens. The program was "Global Pursuit".

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
That is true, Steve. We hunters are individualists and tend to fly solo as a rule.

And no one likes to stick his neck out and criticize, no matter how much it may be warranted.

Still, there are many large world hunting organizations, and these could do a lot more to condemn this practice, IMHO.

On large organisations hunting or shooting, we in the U.K. wear larger manacles than some others, we have to bear the so called N.R.A., (THIS IS NOT A BROTHER OR SISTER OF THE N.R.A. IN THE STATES), If you ai'nt bisley, you ain't a shooter, (small b intended), My greatest dream is a U.K. version of the N.R.A they have in the States, I really don't think this will happen in my lifespan unfortunately SOORY DID'NT MEAN TO GO OFF THREAD!

While is RSA this summer I heard rumors that someone is working on getting his disease free buffalo herd up enough that he could eventually release lions on his property and although they would be "captive bred" that would only be a technicality. His goal is to make a RSA lion and or buffalo hunt as much like a Zim/Tanz/Zambia hunt.

Probably just a pipe dream that would never come true, and obviously a long term project. but one still has to salute him for his idea and efforts if this is true.

Where do they buy the cans the cans in sa takes about 6 pilchards

In camp I watched a video of a father and son doing a canned lion hunt. You even get to see the bewildered male lion climb over the high gate trying to get away. The lioness is just totally confused and frankly you never see her clearly. She is always heavily screened by brush. I was left with the impression that she was tied, or staked in place.

The father and son were high-fiving each other like they had accomplished something. Other than looking like two fools, I'm not sure what they accomplished. I was told they weren't aware the hunt was canned. I don't see how that could be the case if they watched their own video.

You either need to get in one of two camps. You won't do it and are opposed to any canned lion hunting, or you have no problem with canned lion hunting.

Trying to claim you are "ethical" (won't hunt canned lions), but you don't mind others being "unethical", is like saying you wouldn't poach, but you don't care if others do. I would think all lion hunting should be banned in RSA.

I tend to agree with the theory that almost all RSA hunting is canned. That is one reason I won't return to RSA to hunt.

you mean all those pictures( some of which have appeared on AR) of fluffy maned lions shot in RSA really didn't just wander in from the Kalahari or across the Limpopo? i can't believe it!!

quote:

I have to wonder whether any of these "nimrods" who shoots a captive-bred, recently released, game farm lion ever tells the truth about his hunt.

These people are not really hunters at all.

They just want bragging rights when they show their mounted lion in their office or home.

These are the same people who want a measuring tape in their pockets, and want guarantees from the PH guiding them as to the actual size of the animals before they fire a shot.

A captive bred lion is just the right sort of animals to fill their desires.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
As for genetic diversity, I don't really think that is a valid argument. Firstly, the 'canned genes' are outside of the wild pool and modern technology now means we can keep the genetic diversity in a frozen test tube.

Damn, Steve! So that's what PH's do in the off season! Is the license for a lion milker more or less difficult to obtain than a PH license?

Damn, that made laugh!!!

Jim
Thats completely out of hand, you just forced me to coffee all over my computer.
Steve, I have a terribly vivid imagination and I think I am going to have to warn all the lions in TZ. Shooting them is one thing, but that...

The mind boggles huh!

Old Joe was captured by caniballs he had to do 3 things to be released
1.down a bottle of wiskey
2.pull a lioness with toothache's tooth
3.give a 95 year old hooker a multiple

so downed the wiskey and went into the lion's den you just heard growls and roars and 10 minutes later old joe comes out of the den.

he said so where is that hooker so i can pull her teeth

If the cat is bred to be shot and it gets shot, so what! Would I shoot one under canned conditions?...NO. However I'm certainly not going to get my nickers in a knot if someone else does. Just don't call it "hunting", that's all.

Could lion milking be considered a form of hunting? If so Shakari's title should change from PH to PLM.

I once watched a young student vet 'milking' a stallion at my friend's farm and it was as funny as hell. The poor guy got himself a real hammering and ended up covered in bruises (amongst other things) - Can you imagine trying to do the same thing to a Lion?

As I said, the mind boggles!!!!!