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If it's possible, bring that truck | |||
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Not me. My line is 'you go in and I am going to have a coke and a smoke' ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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You are more than welcome to join me into the thick stuff. You are by all accounts an accomplished hunter and one that has experienced and handled dangerous game situations in the past. Some that I have met, and this does not include children and the handicapped, would have been a hinderance. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I recognise that the truck is the 'elephant and howdah' (or horse) of our age. Alot of this discussion boils down to the individual's concept of hunting, or rather the type of hunting that they would like to participate in. For my taste, I would say that most safaris are too short, for too many species and consequently trucks are relied on too much. However, I would not be naive enough to say that trucks shouldn't be used where necessary. But what is necessary? There is no right or wrong answer as each situation is different combination of unique circumstances. However, just to play devil's advocate for the purpose of this discussion, my question is: is dangerous game hunting a sport, or a game? Is it hunting or shooting? Hunts for dangerous game are sold as exactly that, i.e. conducted by professional hunter and client. Is (could/should?) this be different from dangerous game shooting, i.e. where the risks are removed to such an extent that the activity is effectively conducted by guide and shooter (not two hunters, of which one professional). In many people's eyes, this would devalue the hunt or experience. This includes the follow-up, which whether PHs like it or not, many hunters want to be involved in. Clearly, it would be irresponsible to enter a dangerous situation where the odds are more or less a certainty that someone will be killed - that would be irresponsible or negligent, especially in one's duty of care to the unarmed members of the party (esp. trackers). However, is there no longer any room in our society for taking calculated risks? And are calculated risks no longer part of the sport of dangerous game hunting? Is it really the PHs call? If following a wounded lion into long grass is certain to result in fatality, then it would be irresponsible to do so. But situations are almost never certain suicide! If it is a calculated risk, does that mean that the PH has the automatic right to refuse a follow-up on foot? What if the client has contracted a "Classic Safari" with no trucks? Would that mean no follow-up at all and a lost, wounded lion? For one thing, where would that leave the tip?! Assessing the risks and making the final decision, I would suggest, is the PHs call - that is what he is paid to do. However, that is not the same as blindly stating that if a truck is available, that it should automatically be used. After all, is the PHs job to remove all potential risk involved in Lion hunting (and potentially devaluing the experience to that of a game shoot), or is it to minimise those risks to an acceptable level? One could debate where that philosophical line is all day  For those who don’t want to follow-up in trucks, perhaps the only solution is to hunt in terrain that precludes the use of trucks, such as lion tracking on foot in the CAR. Then you just have to worry about making sure the PH is gracious enough to ‘allow you’ to participate in the follow-up! | |||
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Well.....now here is someone who has summed it up pretty well ! | |||
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Jaba, my opinion detailed…. Once a dangerous game animal is wounded, it is the PH’s obligation (and perhaps regulation/requirement) to dispatch the animal in a timely and safe manner. He is responsible for the safety of not only himself, but the hunter (who he may like to see get eaten despite the paperwork and bad press…and of course assuming the hunter has paid in full in advance  ) and his trackers who 99.9% of the time are not there for the “thrill”. The wounded animal, be it lion or hippo or buffalo or elephant, now has the capacity to kill not only members of the hunting party, but innocent villagers. The hunters have a “say”, but it is the PH’s “call”. I believe most hunters who are not asked (“allowed”) to participate in a follow-up are quite chaffed to stay behind. And from years on the forum and in the field, I believe most hunters do participate in a follow-up and the PH is glad for the extra gun (and/or perhaps target! ). And, I think vehicle follow-up's are the minority...although I have heard of PH's running their trucks thru the bush following a wounded elephant but this may have been more to avoid all the walking.Like a brain shot on an elephant, the hunter gets his crack, and if missed, must be ok with the fact that the PH will need to shoot (after maybe allowing a 2nd fast round from the hunter if he is capable) to prevent a lost and wounded, and potentially dangerous, animal from getting away. If this is not acceptable to the hunter, he should stay home. Once an animal is wounded, in particular one capable of killing innocents, and the hunting party has lost total control of the situation, it is no longer a “hunt” but a mission to complete the kill. If one purposely wounds game to make it “exciting”, not only are they “cheating” but they potentially need to have their head examined. There are PLENTY of opportunities for a hunter desiring “danger” or “confrontation” to achieve this during a hunt...book a tuskless cow hunt in the early season jesse or hunt elephant at night in the fields or track lion on foot...or just be unlucky walking to the shower - but we are talking about a WOUNDED animal here. And to me, this changes the dynamics and the rules of engagement. Last thought, I have been around several PH's who had serious incidents. Most were wiser from the experience and more tactical in their actions...a few others were clearly impacted and it showed in how they hunted period. I would not want to hunt with the latter. | |||
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King George V, Nepal 1911   | |||
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Bill C, Any paying sportsman can ask to join in on the follow up of a Lion. We do not refuse but if I felt the chap was going to be a liability then the rules would change. A second seasoned hunter is always a welcome addition to the show. The PH will do his best to get the hunter in for a second shot. There is nothing to discuss or debate when it comes to a charge. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Jabalihunter had a good say of opinion, and it would have been better if the topic was strictly based on dangers game hunting. When you toss in wounded and follow-up it now is requisite to reshape ones mind-set. We need to adjust or modify hunting, acknowledging the big boo-boo blunder of the initial shot. This assuming the animals reaction to the shot was one that clearly led the PH to believe it was misplaced and not where the animal was hit in the boiler-room merely running off in the bush to die. One could argue that if the hunt was devalued, it was done so when the hunter mucked up the shot causing the stew of chaos everyone is now invited to participate in. Many hunters seem to be bothered by the fact that the PH has the authority to decide if the client will be allowed to follow-up and i believe this is unwarranted. Although PH's like to remind us of this, in most cases they are happy to oblige. | |||
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Good one Andrew!  I don't smoke, but you got an extra coke? I'll wait with you till I hear shots, and nothing, or shots growls, and screams!............OR just growls, and screams, then silence!  ......then  dig the hole!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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i guess we are going to be waiting awhile before we hear which PH's are ready to "go in and dig them out". Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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It should be apparent that most PHs would take it in their stride, others might be reluctant. One needs to remember that a PH is doing what he's doing because it is the life he has chosen and is well versed with what is in store for him when things don't go according to plan. Most of these situations turn out on a positive note but on rare occasions don't and a good percentage of these could be blamed on the PH for being careless or 'cock-sure' of himself and most of the times its the young fellas | |||
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RayRay - I take your point. However, I would emphasise that the 'hunt' doesn't end at the the first shot, good or bad. | |||
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Those who carry large caliber shovels? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I am sorry to admit that I shared a camp with an individual who would be a perfect example for this discussion. Whatever he said, he did almost the exact opposite. He made up stories of how brave, and great shot, he was. An ethical hunter to be used as an example for us all. On the hunt, he could hardly walk 100 yards from the truck. He missed animals not many would have missed. He wounded animals, walked back to the truck and let his PH chase them. He got upset when he got back to camp and saw another hunter has shot an animal bigger than his. He went out and shot another one. He bragged so much, making up stories of what had happened during the day, that his PH's jaws dropped to the ground! The PH then asked if his client was talking about the same hunt HE was conducting with him. This is what I mean by they are hunters and there are hunters. One lot go and hunt, enjoy themselves, hunt the way they wish, in what any normal individual way would hunt. The other lot go for bragging rights. Screaming at the top of their voices how ethical, brave, and deadly shots they are. All in their dreams. What is most sad is they probably believe it themselves too. | |||
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Following up in a vehicle is one thing, starting from there is another. I didn't go up there to die, I went up there to live. | |||
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So, Saeed, is it safe to assume you didn't invite this "hunter" along on this years safari? I have met some as you describe but fortunately have never had to share a camp with same; not sure I could bear it for more than one evening. I have usually specified no other hunters in camp, outside of my partners, to avoid exactly what you describe. Safari is to be an enjoyable outing after all!  Once, while hunting the Selous for Lion, I arrived back at camp to be met by my hunting partner who advised that we had visitors. I could tell he wasn't very excited and he headed off to his tent. I went to the campfire to meet three fellows from Texas, one of whom represented himself as the agent who had booked the other two. Seems they were hunting an adjacent concession and had asked their PH to take them to another camp for comparison. There they sat, in the only chairs, drinking our booze and talking story. Their guns didn't make it out of Texas, but it wasn't their agents fault (?) and they were using camp rifles and had run out of beer, but they were killing monstrous animals in their part of the Selous and we should book with the agent next year for our annual safari. Somehow the three of them combined knew everything there was to know about African hunting, rifles, etc. All after less time in Africa combined between the three of them than my partner or I had individually. After giving them more time than I should, I wished them a safe return to their camp and excused myself to head for a shower without proffering an invite for them to stay for dinner. Mercifully they were gone by the time we returned for our dinner, at our dinning area, in our camp. I cannot blame their PH as I have always believed he wanted to get away from them for a bit himself.  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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What distance is one required to wander from a vehicle to allow the first shot to be considered sporting fair chase conduct? Were those Royal folk who hunted tiger from atop elephant, lazy or avoiding foolish risk, considering the long grasses could rise above the elephants head. Was that any lesser a form of hunting, than being on the ground in open terrain?..like when T.Roosevelt dismounted his horse to walk over to an half blind unawares Rhino, which he openly stated, could not be considered stalking. From the account it does not sound like there was all that great a distance from where he left the horses to where the Rhino stood. | |||
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Most rules and regulations are designed to encourage the sport of hunting and to a degree not to disadvantage the animal. Every PH on the continent at one time or another will now and again bend the rules to address a situation. Ever heard the expression 'bend over backwards' ? Is not an expression of our sexual preferences. We deal with people from all walks of life and all shapes and sizes. My job is to ensure that the individual, my employer as such, gets the very best from their safari. Overweight, gay, the handicapped, drunks, democrats and republicans are all treated the same in my camp. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Trax, The general regulation regarding not shooting from the truck is to not make the game shy of the vehicle. Nothing worse that seeing game in a hunting area running from the very sight of a distant car. Many hunters want the thrill of walk and stalk but if the car has to be used because of circumstance then that is between me and the hunter. What happens on tour stays on tour. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Fairgame, thanks for the insight.. Game running from the sight of a distant vehicle shouldnt worry those who feel they need to be on the ground and far way from such to be able to call it hunting.....however they might take a 500yd shot, which another person may not consider hunting. I would have no issue with someone using a vehicle, for among other reasons; - as a steady rest[for their 500yd shot] - to permit a clearer shot over long grass. - to ensure safety of people. | |||
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Trax, Distance shooting is not my style and I find nothing (well almost nothing) more pleasurable that than the physical stalk and to get in close, and indeed the expectation of what lies around the next leafy corner. For me the closer you can get to your game the more in tune you are with your hunting. Probably did not explain that very well but I am sure you know what I mean. Cheers Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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FG, im not generally a distance shot type person myself. I just used that as an example to show the contradiction in some people, where they feel one needs to be away from a vehicle to be respected, but at the same time would venture a 500yd shot on an totally unawares animal. Id rather someone just drive up closer and shoot the thing, if it means better more reliable shot placement/quick kill. | |||
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Trax, Sounds like you and me are on the same wave length. Cheers Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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This is simply my opinion but I see absolutely no valid reason to shoot a game animal at 500yds range with or without the hunting car, except if the animal is about to attack someone out there or is escaping after being wounded! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Sometimes, one has no other choice. We were hunting eland up in the Drakensberg mountains in South Africa. We went up on horse back early in the morning. We were in the clouds as we got to the area we were hunting. We waited until the clouds cleared. We could see a number of eland across a sort of canyon 500 yards away. The choice was take the shot, or forget it. There is no way we could have gotten closer to them. I had a 270/404 I built myself. I laid down and fired a shot at one of the bulls. We heard the bullet hit. He ran a few yards and stopped. I fired another shot at him. He ran a few yards and dropped. Both bullets hit him in the shoulder less than inches apart. I do prefer to get close. But, if there is no option left except take a long shot, and the situation warrants it, I will take. I have passed on shot at buffalo last month of about 200 yards. I wasn't sure of making a good shot, and told my PH as much. We saw 3 eland bulls standing under a tree over 400 yards away last month. It was relatively open between us and them, so the question was asked if I wanted to take a shot from there. I said I would rather get closer, when one of my friends answered that he had seen me shoot another eland a couple of years back at longer distance than this one. While this discussion was going on, the eland walked off. We followed them, and finally managed to shoot the one we wanted from about 300 yards away. | |||
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Paying hunters are motivated by dreamy wants not pressing needs. Depending how much they desire that particular animal will determine what they and their PH may need/decide to do in certain circumstances, in order to obtain it. | |||
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