OK guys, I may be crapping in my food bowl here- but I really don’t care. It is unprofessional of me to say things about others in my industry, but right now, I don’t care. I am posting this here because I hope it gets a few eyes from the good folks on AR.

Between last summer and so far this season, I know of at least 4 completely canned lion hunts that have been filmed for and/or aired on outdoor TV and that many more in the 2 years before. Now generally being in this business, I support anyone hunting, period. It sells guns, ammo, trips, etc., and again, that is how I make my living. I have no problem with guys hunting high fences in TX, or game reserves in South Africa or Namibia. To each their own…have fun…

I do have a problem with people shooting caged lions though. Maybe I am a hypocrite. Now I don’t want to go through that whole debate here. There is so much being done by folks trying to lion hunt right with older non-pride males, etc. It is very encouraging, but to me one of the worst things that can be done is showing one of these caged hunts for a number of reasons.

1- They are pretty darn obvious, and it doesn’t look good to anti’s etc., but I don’t really care what they think.

2- This really degrades a true wild lion hunt when they put this stuff on TV. It looks easy (many of them walk up to lions at 25 yards and shoot them with a bow while the cat just lies there watching- unlike a wild one)– the lions are all super males with great manes (so an old scraggly wild male looks poor in comparison) – The hard work and dedication are not shown because it is not there. Degrading a wild lion hunt by having viewers perceive this as a real lion hunt really is the worst thing to me.

3- All of them I have seen have tried to mis-represent the hunts as wild, some to the point of making statements like…”Lions are the top predators here, so they fear nothing and won’t run away. They will watch us approach because they aren’t scared of anything.”

I guess I can go on and on, but It just gets me like nothing else to see this stuff on TV and the average viewer who could be learning something about lions, lion hunting and lion conservation thinks this is real lion hunting. Then guys like Dave and Ivan and Tracks, Shockey and Mike Fell (and the few times we have been lucky enough to film one) show a real wild lion hunt all done right – and it isn’t a big deal (like it should be) because more of the caged ones are shown. It may to be a big deal to all of us in the “know”, but if this crap keeps up – viewers will think of shooting a lion on par with shooting some very common species. I think for his sake and conservation – he needs to be regarded as special.

I don’t know what the answer is to this. Because of complaints and perceived ethics – the outdoor networks – have some fairly stringent rules and some not so stringent that we all have to abide by (no feeders – no bedded animals in some places – no high fences showing, etc.). If they get complaints about an episode, they may pull it for future airings. With the high controversy over lion hunting in general and groups working to stop us – the controversies over canned hunting, etc. – I think we as hunters should be putting the best foot we can forward, and in my opinion this stuff is taking a big step back and is front in center on outdoor TV. I urge everyone that feels the same about this to email the networks when they see this stuff and let them know how you feel. Please do it in an educated, courteous and professional way (better than how I wrote this) so it will be taken serious.

Sorry about the rant, but I hope this can bring up some constructive discussion (though I wasn't very constructive), and maybe someone has better solutions to this than me. BTW…I have never killed a lion period (though I want to) so my past experience doesn’t play into this. I have seen a few wild ones, and those sightings are some of the highlights of my hunting career, because they are so special, even though I wasn’t hunting them.

Tim - IMO, a man always should stand up for what he believes in, regardless of his chosen career.

I too totally agree with your opinion. Canned lion "hunting" isn't really the problem, but the way its FALSELY portrayed to the public - including would be hunters. My lord, just call it what it is - lion shooting, and go do it if that's what you want to do (I have nothing against it). But please, do not put it on YouTube or television for the world to see, and call it lion hunting, cause it ain't.

Over the past 40 days, returning home just last night (will do hunt report in a few days). I did 2 - back to back, 18 day lion hunts in Zim. On both hunts, I did find a big/mature lion I would shoot, plus numerous male lions I wouldn't shoot, but at the end of 36 days of hunting, it was Lions 36 and Aaron 0!!!!!! Wild lions are incredibly wary, very smart, and without question - Africa's greatest trophy IMO. To think one just walks up to them lying under a bush and starts shooting, is so far from reality I don't even know where to begin. On my 2nd - 18 day hunt, I can honestly say I have never hunted a place with a greater concentration of big/mature male lions, never. Yet, in 18 days I never laid eyes on a single one of them in the day light, not once!

I hope your message here in not loss on deaf ears, as your point couldn't be more accurate!

Totally completely agree with both of you!

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but public perception of canned-hunting is bad enough without contributing to it by using the word "caged".

Sematics I know ...but Antis see no difference in "caged" and "canned"...

When they are raised to maturity in a cage and turned loose in an enclosure - I still consider them caged lions...and a canned hunt.

I was actually surprised to see Nicole's lion get up once she shot it with the bow. Thought it had to be pretty drugged to let her, an armed possey of men, and a camera man within 25 yards.

IT wouldn't bother me if the shows were upfront about it being a canned hunt. There are good conservation arguements to be made for canned hunting, but I have never seen one of these shows make them. They just pretend the lions being shot are true wild lions and that is a fraud.

Well said Tim and Aaron...I stand with both of you.

As you will soon see...you have just opened a giant can of worms!

I'm sure that many of the resident SA PH's here are going to blast you for your opinion so I give you credit for speaking out the way you just did...especially since you are in the business and will be ruffling some feathers.

For what it's worth I agree with your outlook 100%

Tim,
Agreed 100%. Aaron, I'd like to hear about your hunt.

This is a bit facetious, but I'm sort of serious. A solution to the canned/caged hunts is to limit the weapons. You want canned, big maned lions? Sure you can pursue them -- I won't call it a hunt -- With a spear and a shield. No drugs (for the lions -- you can have all you want) and no rifle back-up; Shooting an animal under those circumstances with a rifle (or modern bows) is just not cricket.

Have at it. Be sure and contract with MedJet or one of its competitors beforehand. And as far as the TV shows, the circumstances should have to be disclosed.

Why anyone would want to kill a pen-raised animal and call it a hunt is beyond me. Let's at least make it sporting.

My personal opinion aside...

BigBorCore said - "IT wouldn't bother me if the shows were upfront about it being a canned hunt. There are good conservation arguements to be made for canned hunting, but I have never seen one of these shows make them. They just pretend the lions being shot are true wild lions and that is a fraud." I wouldn't be an advocate for the hunt, but if they did this and talked conservation on Tv, I would never say a word against it, and it would be valid. So I agree
here for sure.
Leopardtrack -"As you will soon see...you have just opened a giant can of worms!

I'm sure that many of the resident SA PH's here are going to blast you for your opinion so I give you credit for speaking out the way you just did...especially since you are in the business and will be ruffling some feathers."

I am sure I will and I don't mean to come down on operators, especially ones up front about their hunts. I have friends that are SA PH's, and I wish all of the honest outfitters everywhere in Africa the best. I guess I am bashing my industry- the TV guys - for the pitiful portrayal, hiding the facts/truth, etc. I am sure I will offend some PH's- that is not my intention and for that - I apologize up front. I can agree to disagree on many things...but some of the shows have simply been wrong.

About 12 years ago while hunting in Zim they had recently taken down the fences in an area that had some very nice lions. These lions really enjoyed their freedom preying on game beyond the fenced area. Suddenly these were "wild" lions and some very nice trophies were taken. I came across a few of these lions on my hunt and though I respected them, there would have been little problem taking one of these large predators.
I'm sure it made guys feel better shooting one of these but is there a difference?
I have found that heavily hunted animals are "wilder" to hunt whatever that means. Large predators such as lion can be deceiving but are still deadly.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Why anyone would want to kill a pen-raised animal and call it a hunt is beyond me.

Amen!

This has become an old and boring argument. For years, I was invited to kill a Lion in RSA and for years I declined. I just didn't want to kill a raised Lion - yes, I kill raised pheasants - and never have. I chose to spend twice as much money to hunt wild Lion in Tanzania for 21 days and never saw a mature Lion - I was offered a young male and declined. I went home without a Lion and a lot of cash. Three years later I tried again in Zambia and took my big boy on day 14 of another 21 day hunt.

Do I regret spending what was for me a helluva lotta money to get my Lion the way I wanted to? Not at all. And I never have to drop my head when I say how and where I took my Lion; unlike a lot of people who took their Lion in RSA.

YO AARON! Where you at in early August? I'll be in Chewore South from 5-16th.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
Totally completely agree with both of you!

Very, very true.

This is what I have been saying all along.

I have nothing against anyone shooting a farm bred lion, but PLEASE, PLEASE do not say it was a wild lion.

I have been hunting lion every time I go to Africa, excpet when I went to South Africa.

I have walked miles and miles following the tracks of lions and came epmty handed. I have sat in blinds for hours and not seen a shootable lion.

Once in South Africa someone in our camp mentioned a "nasty lion causing all sorts of problems, and would I be interested to go shoot it"

The man got the message as I looked at him, and that silly story never got mentioned again.

I made it a point, for me personally, to NEVER shoot a lion in South Africa.

One could say many things in many different ways ragarding Nicole's "Lion Hunt". It probably really needs not be spoken to her, as she ages she will most likely become very embarassed of what she participated in as those others that have done the same. Hopefully, she and those others will have the chance to really hunt a wild lion and pay their dues in checking many many baits, in the early morning before the birds fly, covering the miles and be so tierd in the evening or next morning when their adrenalin wakes them when the King shows, then that incredible experience takes them to a level they will NEVER allow to be compared to what a "canned hunt" was or is. Hopefully, the majority will saddle up to the bar and pay the price both physically and financially to support real wild areas so there are wild lions for the generations to follow.

With the self promotion, high fives, advertising, etc, I have long given up watching hunting shows....

As I see it the problem lies in filming this sort of hunt and trying to pass it off as a wild lion hunt. What should happen is all the folks who sponsor a show should tell the film makers that they will not advertize on their show if they broadcast this sort of hunt.

"High Five" I think that is directly related to Glen Burke the openly gay baseball player that died of AIDS. Evidently, there must be a bunch of hunters that want to be like him because I see them doing it on the shows frequently which I watch mainly out of boredom.

You can bet I will never participate in that ceremony just like I will never have my ear pierced. I can't remember the rule that I was told when I was young if it is your left ear or your right ear that is pierced to associate yourself with the GAY population.

Call me what you want but I will never condone that type of behaviour.

I was an observer on a friend's lion hunt in 2010 at Leeuwbosch Lodge in RSA, we knew it was a canned hunt and they raised lions on property- no secret. The same place showed up on Trophy Quest TV show. They were shooting from the same blind as we used the week before we were there.
The lion they shot, according to the show, had been out raiding cattle and marauding villages. Said lion must have been a real good jumper to get over the giant electric game fence and why would it have jumped back in to be shot?

What at BS story they presented. I guess to admit it was a hunt inside a fence would not be macho enough for TV.

Mark

Tim,

I'm in complete agreement with you.

DOLLAR = short cuts and funny sh#te. ie., dopey MGM lions and retarded colour genes in spastic animals. Someone said that not everyone in the game industry was a "crook," but damn near every "crook" was in the game industry.
Tim and Aaron, reload with cannister and prepare to repel boarders.

I agree 100%, Tim.
I don't like canned lion hunting and I think it has nothing to do with hunting.

I will never hunt or do business with an south african outfitter who is involved in that canned lion thing.

But it always amazes me that it is accepted by so many people and they print reports in various magazines and make tv shows with canned lions!

I don't care if someone kills a pen raised lion, I just don't want to see/read/hear him telling he has hunted it!

Caracal

quote:

I don't care if someone kills a pen raised lion, I just don't want to see/read/hear him telling he has hunted it!

That is the most to the point sentence on this thread so far...

My solution to this problem . . . I just do not watch those shows. It is not just the canned lion hunting, it is the fist pumping, the back slapping, the puffing and exaggeration, the over dramatization, etc. I just skip the whole wretched experience.

Tim,
I have hunted in Canada, CAR and Namibia this year. Each place hosted a film crew to make a TV show in the past year. Each said that what was filmed and what was on TV was not exactly the same hunt.

Editing, prose written for the hunting viewers and other items were "faked" to make the story more interesting. This includes some of the most notable "personalities" on TV.

I was also part of a made-for-TV show about the oil business. The filming for that went well but it was a mixed up mess that ended up on TV and I ended up looking a bit foolish on the show.

After those experiences, I concluded that most, if not all that you see on the TV that is "reality" is not.

One of the agents that has posted on this website and has come under a lot of fire over his business practices used to send out a DVD of a client that took three of the big five on his concession. Great action shots, great video. I talked to someone that was directly involved in the hunt and he said that what I saw is not what happened. The footage was edited to appear that one guy did the hunting. It was not the case.

Further, an article in a magazine about a great hunt in CAR was mis-written to sound better as well.

Anyway, I prefer to not watch that stuff anymore as I think we are being flim-flammed.

Dogcat- that is part of the problem with these shows- the reality isn't even close to finished product. It is had to make everything look exactly as you experienced it- but gross misrepresentation is ridiculous.

What show are we talking about and who's Nicole?

Tim - Are you referring to a recent show, or just in general? If so, which one - I would like to try and watch it?

Guys, to me its simply the false portrayl of lion hunting, which could not be further from the truth! Especially as it pertains to non-hunters watching this stuff on TV and more so, Youtube. When lion "hunting" is made to look so completely pathetic, its easy to see how many can rally against its continuation.

Fact is, I've had several hunters over the years ask me how in the world could I find it sporting to hunt a lion? Then he proceeds to tell me about the tv show he watched where 6 guys walked right up to the lion, as he lay there watching, and shot him! Even our own get such a false sense or reality when it comes to wild lion hunting, that even they sometimes rally against the cause.

Doing it is one thing, but glorifying it on TV/Youtube for the world to see, terrible! Please do your part to stop it, if possible.

I talked to a Kai-Uwe Denker some time ago. He said to me "...today most "hunters" don't even know what real hunting is!"
Look around the " modern hunting-industry" and think about it...


I guess this canned lion hunting industry is just a symptom of that.

tim ,
great post and i agree with you 100% ...one of the aspects of hunting with a cameraman behind you is that you , weather you like it or not end up putting your actions and explanations in front of people from every walk of life and belief ....you can either be a great abassador to the sport and present a show or argument that people may listen to and learn from or else , as many have described you can fuel the antis ..its a tough balance and one needs to understand that many many antis will not come round no matter what , there are those however who are on the fence and well thought out well explained Tv is a great conduit for our cause ...

great post tim , thank you ...

Aaron - I will email you - I opened this up, but want to stop short of naming names. There is a show as such on Outdoor Ch this week, but this isn't the only one.

Aaron,

We all know you're position on this......where's the hunt report???

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My solution to this problem . . . I just do not watch those shows. It is not just the canned lion hunting, it is the fist pumping, the back slapping, the puffing and exaggeration, the over dramatization, etc. I just skip the whole wretched experience.

Another with this approach. I don't watch hunting at all on tv. I do not even take those channels. I could not care less about what is filmed or shown.

You could contact their advertisers (the money people) with a statement letting them know of your disapointment in them for sponsoring such misleading shows.
I would not condem them, just let them know that this is unacceptable & embarrising.

I've said before that the esoteric nature of hunting basically precludes once from being able to represent it accurately on television. What we are mostly left with on TV is the hunting equivalent of the last few seconds of your average adult film. Trying to pass what it left for TV as a hunt is doing a disservice to most hunting. While shows like TAA and UWS do try to be more well-rounded, still, to encapsulate a hunt in 18 minutes of ad-filled TV is not really fair or possible. The way they are effective is when they appeal to a hunting audience (which they mostly do anyway) and either allow a guy to relive past experiences or to allow a guy (or gal of course) to imagine a future experience. To a non-hunter or worse anti-hunter, the TV show is something odd and gives a false impression of what occurred. They frequently show hunters in a bad light (back slapping, fist pumping, woo hooing) and generally fail completely to transfer the feelings to the viewer WHY they hunter reacted as they did. Those reactions may be honest and sincere, but only the hunter knows what the feeling actually is of what they have accomplished.

As to YouTube, hunting does not belong on YouTube in any way, shape or form. To twist an old statement "Those who seek elected office are not worthy of it and those worthy would never seek it", I would say the vast majority of hunters posting their crap on YouTube do not deserve the title hunter and those who do deserve the title are smart enough to keep their experiences to themselves or whithin the fraternity of those who actually understand it and know that, in the majority, posting snippets of kills, replays of bullet strikes and lunatic celebratory moments do more harm than good.

We know anti-hunters want us dead, there is no changing that. However we must realize that in point of fact, the ambivalent non-hunter is the one keeping hunting alive. Neither the anti-, nor pro-hunting world has enough votes or influence to make a permanent change, only those in the middle have that power. Those who may not hunt but feel as long as it is done in an ethical and 'moralistic' way, they are fine with it. Much of what is ending up on TV and the INternet does not pass either. We are paying out the rope from which our necks will hang by continuing this behavior and at the end, as we hang and hear the rope squeaking on the gallows, we;ll have the gall to ask "How did this happen?"

Baxter hit it on the head!!!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
As to YouTube, hunting does not belong on YouTube in any way, shape or form. To twist an old statement "Those who seek elected office are not worthy of it and those worthy would never seek it", I would say the vast majority of hunters posting their crap on YouTube do not deserve the title hunter and those who do deserve the title are smart enough to keep their experiences to themselves or whithin the fraternity of those who actually understand it and know that, in the majority, posting snippets of kills, replays of bullet strikes and lunatic celebratory moments do more harm than good.

Tim,

I'm another one that really doesn't care if folks want to shoot a lion that is something less than wild. It doesn't interest me and I've never sold one of these dare I say hunts but I'm not against people doing it. Pen reared lions are stock raised for market. They just get shot rather than slaughtered for meat. I have a hard time getting upsdet about it. On the other hand if these lion "hunts" are portrayed as a wild hunts that is another matter that may skew people's perception of lion hunting and hunting in general.

One of the issues expressed here in the past concerned hunters being duped into thinking that their hunt is for a wild lions when the lion in reality was released for them to shoot. I often wonder if there are hunters out there that are really that naive or perhaps they don't just don't want to know. Any opinions?

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:
I was actually surprised to see Nicole's lion get up once she shot it with the bow. Thought it had to be pretty drugged to let her, an armed possey of men, and a camera man within 25 yards.

agreed plus the scent blocker folks had a pretty piss pour lion hunt this year as well.