I know, I know! MGM Studios

they are in Aarons back yard.... he and his crazy sidekick richard keep them on bait for crazy folks who want lion. when deposits are recieved the lion is sent via sea cargo to the hunting destination. it is not easy keeping one of those cats on a bait especially after that long journey, the photo is proof that the cat has made it from the US to Africa. if you look carefully there is a mark on the left hand side of cats rump - that is where the dart was administered

But counting the above out of the question, i would like to hunt my lion on foot - ie botswana. but in the same breath sitting in a blind built for the purpose of lion hunting in the dark and all you hear is the crunching of bones and can smell the cat.... that is a blast.

Hell we had a spot of bother with trying to get hold of a "problem animal" lion and man that old boy is smart. he is still out there, we will await his return and let him be

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Part of the reason why we are facing lion closure!

I wouldn't say we're facing closure YET...... but would say it's far from impossible that it might happen in the not too distant future and at the risk of getting my head bitten off, I have to say that (IMO) a shortish (5 years or so) moratorium might not be such a bad idea if we hope that the next generation can continue hunting lions in a responsible and sporting manner.

quote:

I wouldn't say we're facing closure YET

I should have more correctly said "facing the possibility of closure".

But...lion is closed in Botswana where DLS shot his 4 year old. Again !!!

Some of the responses I got to my post show what has gone wrong with a lot of African "safari" hunting -starting (predictably) with an outfitter's post -the very people who,in many cases, don't "sell" a hunting trip (you know where sometimes you win and sometimes you lose) - they are selling a "trophy" (practically guaranteed) to brag about years afterwards. They really are not much different from SA canned hunts. No, "Aaron", I never hunted a lion -but don't bother to tell me about bait hunts. You and your hustling kind want the type of people who don't know what the expression "shooting fish in a barrel" means.

Let me add to my last post that the fact that some "clients" cannot place killing shots -even while shooting from rest at an animal who didn't know they were there until the first shot -and who then drew Leo's angry I.D. of who it was that was shooting at him - scarcely amounts to what many of us consider to be hunting for DG. (I always assumed that bait hunting for leopard was required because otherwise one could spend 6 months in fair chase after a leopard. Sure, I'm being inconsistent (because I like lions a lot better than leopards)but I really would like to have bragged that I hunted lion on the ground and just didn't get a shot (if I had ever had the privilege) I just don't like the idea of shooting over bait at such a magnificent DG.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
Some of the responses I got to my post show what has gone wrong with a lot of African "safari" hunting -starting (predictably) with an outfitter's post -the very people who,in many cases, don't "sell" a hunting trip (you know where sometimes you win and sometimes you lose) - they are selling a "trophy" (practically guaranteed) to brag about years afterwards. They really are not much different from SA canned hunts. No, "Aaron", I never hunted a lion -but don't bother to tell me about bait hunts. You and your hustling kind want the type of people who don't know what the expression "shooting fish in a barrel" means.

Sir,

You are attacking Aaron unfairly here.

quote:

I just don't like the idea of shooting over bait at such a magnificent DG.

Again sir:



Getting lion on bait reqires skill to begin with. Then it gives the PH a chance to judge age and to see if it is in a pride with cubs...very important factors to consider for lion preservation.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
Some of the responses I got to my post show what has gone wrong with a lot of African "safari" hunting -starting (predictably) with an outfitter's post -the very people who,in many cases, don't "sell" a hunting trip (you know where sometimes you win and sometimes you lose) - they are selling a "trophy" (practically guaranteed) to brag about years afterwards. They really are not much different from SA canned hunts. No, "Aaron", I never hunted a lion -but don't bother to tell me about bait hunts. You and your hustling kind want the type of people who don't know what the expression "shooting fish in a barrel" means.

Gerrypeters375 - First off, I only asked you a question based on your original post. Have you hunted lion before??

Secondly, I meant no dis-respect by simply asking a question.

Thirdly, I ask that because if you had, likely you would have a WHOLE different outlook on the entire situation. In fact, I would almost guarantee it! I personally have done both, tracking lion and baiting lion, ALOT!! Fact is, I too would prefer to track lion. Its exciting, close-up contact, and anything's possible. Botswana was definitely the premier place to track lion, MAINLY because of the ground /soil conditions. Botswana is very sandy soil, with little grass encroachment, making the tracks, often easy to find and see. No question, the trackers in Bots, much like the rest of Africa are experts at tracking, but fact is, most of the time, I could have followed the tracks all by myself. As I mentioned, this is definitely the way I would prefer to do it.

However, besides Botswana I have hunted lion in 5 other countries. All of which has been bait hunting, and for ONE main reason. Tracking lion in most other places in Africa is simply IMPOSSIBLE, even for the best African Trackers on the whole continent, PERIOD! Often the terrain is, long grass, thick bush, rocky, etc, etc. You must remember, cats have SOFT pads on their feet, and also do not leave extending claw marks like dogs often do. So, to try and even find a cat track in GRASS is totally impossible. To track them through grass, would be more impossible yet. Imagine if you will, a lion, that leaves no dig marks in the ground, walked the length of say your local nine hole golf course, (roughly a couple of miles) ALL on the fairways (grass), never walking on a dirt road or path, and then you come there 8 hrs later and try to track it? Can't happen, won't happen, not even by the best trackers in the world, period! Trust me on this I know, I have participated in 18 lion hunts all across Africa, it ain't gonna happen.

So that brings your only other option to baiting! In the 300 plus days that I have personally hunted lion, I have NEVER seen a big, mature, trophy lion from a vehicle, not once. Now I have seen numerous other lions, young males, females and cubs, but never a big male. Fact is, they may be the KING of the jungle but they are very smart, very elusive, and generally want to avoid people. So if you plan to get one is these areas that are impossible to track, you must bait them.

Fact is, baiting is an art. You don't just run all over the bush, throwing out baits, and there's your cat! Getting Lion on Bait is NOT ONE BIT EASIER than getting a leopard on bait. So, you make reference to the fact that you thought leopard hunting required baiting because it was likely the only way to get one. Well in most of Africa, the exact same fact holds true for lions as well. If one just went out lion hunting in these areas without baiting, he too would likely spend 6 months wandering around in the bush, hoping like hell he bumped into a lion!!

The most important thing a PH does when baiting a LION or LEOPARD, is have intimate knowledge of the area, and where the cats likely are. That's takes, time, energy, and skill. Often times, you do traverse roads looking for tracks where a lion has walked down the road, thus you have a good idea he is in the area. But once he leaves that road and heads off into the grass/bush, the tracks are GONE!! So knowing how and where to hopefully intercept that lion, while he's on walk-about over night takes planning, and knowledge of the area. If the lion is constantly missing the bait, because they are not part of his travel route, he ain't never gonna find it. This is truly the hard part of cat hunting, be it lion or leopard. They must find your bait to hit it, and the PH must be putting the baits in the right place so they can find it.

Once you are lucky enough to get the cat on bait, now the game starts. Cats are predators, which means they are the smartest animals in the bush, period! They survive by out-smarting their prey, in close quarter contact. Same rule applies when they start feeding on bait. You noticed in the pictures I posted above, that lion is feeding at 2:30 in the morning. Most, but not all, countries do not allow night hunting for cats, so you have to try and set up your baiting situation so that the cat feels comfortable enough to show up during daylight hours. If he's feeding at 2am because the bait location is not in a place he feels comfortable in the daylight, its all over. So the bait site, is just as important as knowing where the cat is, and a likely route he will travel to intercept the bait.

As Lane mentioned, baiting also helps hugely in the assessment of the actual lion you might shoot. Its a much more definitive way to be sure of the maturity of the cat, before you shoot it, than is tracking. A track only indicates the size of the lion's foot, nothing more. But once a lion hits bait, immediately an experienced lion hunting will have 90% assurance what type of cat he has, regardless of trail cams. When lions feed, they ALWAYS leave mane hair on the bait, ALWAYS! One only needs to look closely at the mane hairs left by the cat, to have a darn good idea what kind of mane he has. I personally have NEVER seen this sign fail. If we find 8" plus, ginger, brown or black colored mane hair, it has always been a good cat. If we find lots of 3" - 5", white or ginger mane hairs, it has always been an immature male. Fact is, YOU DON"T get this luxury when tracking lion. Often times the lion knows you're there at the same time you see him, and a quick, snap decision is necessary, which can sometimes lead to a mistake, even by seasoned pros. Plus, if you are lucky enough to see the lion while in the blind, then you often have time to confirm your original suspicions that he is in fact a mature animal, and worthy of harvesting.

Lastly, I will say this. You're right, it should be a chip shot for any experienced hunter to properly shoot a 450 - 500lb animal at 50 - 80 yards. Fact is though, NOTHING compares to seeing a big maned lion step out from the bush, grab onto a 1,000lb hippo quarter, and jerk it around like a rag doll! Adrenaline rush just isn't the word for it. Fortunately in the 11 lions I have personally shot, I have never had the slightest problem with this. But as a guide for the past 18 years, I have seen my fair share of clients that go completely goofy over a 180" mule deer, so I can only imagine their anxiety level when the "top of the food chain", steps out in front of them, WOW! Often times the shot is at last light, or early in the morning, making shooting conditions tough. Plus, if the hunter is not familiar with the proper shot placement, compounded by the fact that a lion's full mane, can make the sweet spot, more difficult to see, thus making shot placement even more difficult. I also guarantee you this, the last thing on the planet you want to deal with is a wounded lion! Give me all the elephant & buffalo charges you want, but PLEASE do not give me a wounded lion in the bush. They are lightning fast, enormously powerful, and kill for a living.

Bottom line, if ever you get a chance to hunt one, even over bait, do it! it will be one of the most incredible & enjoyable hunting experiences you could ever have in your life! If for any reason I offended you in my original post to you, I apologize, that was not my intention.

Gerrypeters:
What Aaron says is 100% accurate and I speak from experience. I'm not out to convince you of anything. I will add that my 18 days in Tanz with Paul Jelonek were the toughest days I have ever spent hunting lion. Baiting is an art and so is passing on a mature lion (6-7 y/o) on day 9 to get a more mature one (8-9 y/o) on day 17. Everything we did was in an effort to bring the male to the bait. This included staying on schedule to shoot the 2 zebra, 3 buff, 1 Waterbuck and 1 Puku (lion twinkie snack) not to mention the 2 Zebra left on bait from the previous hunters. The Bushbuck we ate.

If you can perform this task, in the required time frame, and trek miles upon miles and be prepared to shoot in the 106 degree heat while dodging lioness, snakes and buffalo in the long grass...then you have earned your lion. And no, my PH did not have to shoot my lion. I placed three rounds in his heart at 69 yards. DOA.

Nothing I will ever do the rest of my life will fill me with the intensity and challenge my perseverance that this experience did. My experience as a trial attorney dealing with federal and state murder, rape and sodomy trials...that says something.


Dutch

Great response, Aaron. This thread was going in a bad direction, and it's great to see it pulled back to a polite discussion.

Aaron,

Well stated, as always. However I think you may be wasting your time with this guy because, I believe, he just doesn't get it and doesn't want to.

Just to add to the facts of baited Lion hunting, it is perhaps worth mentioning that in my own case I spent a total of 32 days over two dedicated Lion safaris in Tanzania and Zambia, shooting bait animals, looking for Lion sign, hanging baits, checking baits, replenishing baits, sitting in blinds and machans - repeat-repeat-repeat before I got my bigboy. And like Aaron, I have never seen a mature male Lion in daylight while on more than a dozen safari in eight sub-Saharan African countries, unless I was visiting a National Park. I have seen females and cubs and young males only.

BTW, the hair will stand up on your neck when you hear the roar of a mature male Lion coming to the bait, warning the other Lion that this is now his. It is not a fear issue but more of a primeval reaction. I have been on the ground in darkness among them while searching on foot for wounded Lion, and that is frightening!

I hope to hunt Lion again someday.

......but what does Aaron know.....

Brett

Did we ever determine where the lion is?

Gerrypeters, I bet your an expert on something but it ain't lion hunting.

Stick to what you know. Getting a big male lion to bait is an art.

I would never condem something I had never done.

Aaron,

Thanks for starting the thread and posting the pics.

Aaron,
Thanks for the pictures..Way cool!

Aaron:

Firstly, let me apologize for an old Irishman's attack on you. (You mentioned that you meant no insult in your first post reply to me - and,of course you didn't. It was an Irishman's quick temper that's responsible for taking insult)
I have read the subsequent posts -and I think I want to make some points. My sole experience with bait hunting for lion is a picture I took of a bait stand for lion (Chirisa Safari District,Zim))I was awed by how far up the lion had to reach to get at the bait -and my PH had my view-that he preferred a hunt in fair open field after a lion. I freely confess that I am a "romantic" about lions. I think they should be hunted in broad daylight -and that Leo should spot me -and come for me. Anyway, thank you for a gentleman's response to my rude reply to your post.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
and my PH had my view-that he preferred a hunt in fair open field after a lion. I freely confess that I am a "romantic" about lions. I think they should be hunted in broad daylight -and that Leo should spot me -and come for me. Anyway, thank you for a gentleman's response to my rude reply to your post.

Spoken like someone who has never hunted lion. NOI

I don't think Gerry is alone in wanting to be charged. There are those that find that getting in an animals face is what makes the hunt. In the case of elephant it seems to be de rigeur. For me that is not what hunting is about. Hunting for me is outsmarting the animal when at all possible and leaving them undisturbed if they are not the trophies I'm looking for.

Mark

quote:

Leo should spot me -and come for me.

Then...you must shoot...even if it is a 4 yr old with suckling cubs in his pride.

quote:

I don't think Gerry is alone in wanting to be charged. There are those that find that getting in an animals face is what makes the hunt. In the case of elephant it seems to be de rigeur. For me that is not what hunting is about. Hunting for me is outsmarting the animal when at all possible and leaving them undisturbed if they are not the trophies I'm looking for.

Mark

Spoken like a true "hunter"!

An old saying amongst PH's from the old school is: "never trouble trouble...unles trouble troubles you."

In regards to ele...sneak in and see the ivory and if not suitable sneak out and leave these old chaps to there chewing, belching, farting, and rumbling...in peace and solitude like an old ele prefers.

nice lion

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
An old saying amongst PH's from the old school is: "never trouble trouble...unles trouble troubles you."

Lane, I wrote that knowing full well that someone would respond as you did, and I agree with you. It doesn't change the fact I shot a younger lion, but it was back in 1989, and I was much younger and less knowledgeable back then. Heck, I was only 30 years old then! We didn't even have an internet to have these kind of informed discussions back then! The main point I was trying to make was, having hunted lions (and leopards too) by both baiting and tracking, I have no problem with either hunting method. To use the leopards for comparison, the one I shot by baiting was actually a more sporting hunt than the one I killed by tracking in the Kalahari.

Perhaps interestingly, my PH was a long time, well known Botswana PH who had no qualms about telling me to shoot that lion as soon as he checked the mane. It was the third 'mature' lion we'd seen in 22 days, and he urged me to take it as soon as he checked the mane with his binoculars. Of the 3 males we saw, the other two were older and had heavier manes (one was a specatcular ginger maned old fellow), but it didn't come together for us. Would I have done it the same if I had the chance again, yes and no. Back then, yes; today, no. I'm still glad to have had a great hunt for him, though.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
Lane, I wrote that knowing full well that someone would respond as you did, and I agree with you. It doesn't change the fact I shot a younger lion, but it was back in 1989, and I was much younger and less knowledgeable back then. Heck, I was only 30 years old then! We didn't even have an internet to have these kind of informed discussions back then! The main point I was trying to make was, having hunted lions (and leopards too) by both baiting and tracking, I have no problem with either hunting method. To use the leopards for comparison, the one I shot by baiting was actually a more sporting hunt than the one I killed by tracking in the Kalahari.

Perhaps interestingly, my PH was a long time, well known Botswana PH who had no qualms about telling me to shoot that lion as soon as he checked the mane. It was the third 'mature' lion we'd seen in 22 days, and he urged me to take it as soon as he checked the mane with his binoculars. Of the 3 males we saw, the other two were older and had heavier manes (one was a specatcular ginger maned old fellow), but it didn't come together for us. Would I have done it the same if I had the chance again, yes and no. Back then, yes; today, no. I'm still glad to have had a great hunt for him, though.

DLS,

Thanks for sharing and I was NOT trying to be inflammatory.

But if we are going to always have lion to hunt...we must take care of them. That is the only reason I mentioned it.

Again...

I saw 4 different males in daylight and shot mine near sunset. But to think that you want to experience a charge...you should carefully reflect on that aspect of the hunt. I was pursued twice and charged once by a particular lioness and knew, from day 2 of the hunt, that I was in way over my head in that respect. Although I stayed steady and did not run on any occasion I was still somewhat shaken by the ordeal. I still have mixed feelings about the situation. It certainly made my hunting experience but could have had disastrous results as well. Walking backwards around tall grass with a lioness in front at 20 yards and one to your left at 40-50 yards pushing you backwards for 150 yards is, indeed, a real experience I will never have again. Glad I was able to have the experience but it was unnerving. Anyone says different is not telling the truth, or a sociopath. By the way, when the male did call on the last hunting day he ended up walking within 2 feet of me in the blind. I could smell his breath through the grass and could have reached out and touched him. The wind was perfect and he made a right turn and walked straight away from the blind. I'll have to do a hunting report with pictures.

Dutch

Dutct44 - Please post pics and a report, sounds like an exciting/scary experience!!

Aaron,

Where does this magnum lion reside? Perhaps Messr Hume is keeping him "tied up" on the back 40 for who ever pounces on you Kafue lion deal of the century?

Brett

Brett - I will venture, that your very first guess was pretty darn close! Not exactly, and not with the outfit you suggested, but very close.

RSA....hmmmm......Tibatavi(sp)?

Brett

Nope! Not in the Timbavati.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Nope! Not in the Timbavati.

Letaba Ranch???

I'm not sure if I'm not just digging myself into a deeper hole -but I do want to say that I certainly am not talking about provoking dangerous animals -but if I am supposed to be "hunting" them -then I would think that they are entitled to a fair fighting chance for their lives -and I am supposed to be willing to face them on their own ground -or are we really otherwise just talking about pot shooting an animal? -- and, if, perchance, he might have a chance to come at us "clients" -that the PH will save the day? I'm not talking about being a fool in front of DG -but Mark Young is right - The element of danger is important - It's Dangerous game,after all. There may be many who just want the trophy on the wall. There are others who want to know deep down in their private selves that they faced a dangerous animal who meant to defend himself. Mark Young is right, in spades, in that comment of his.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
I'm not sure if I'm not just digging myself into a deeper hole -but I do want to say that I certainly am not talking about provoking dangerous animals -but if I am supposed to be "hunting" them -then I would think that they are entitled to a fair fighting chance for their lives -and I am supposed to be willing to face them on their own ground -or are we really otherwise just talking about pot shooting an animal? -- and, if, perchance, he might have a chance to come at us "clients" -that the PH will save the day? I'm not talking about being a fool in front of DG -but Mark Young is right - The element of danger is important - It's Dangerous game,after all. There may be many who just want the trophy on the wall. There are others who want to know deep down in their private selves that they faced a dangerous animal who meant to defend himself. Mark Young is right, in spades, in that comment of his.

Exactly!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett - I will venture, that your very first guess was pretty darn close!

South Africa was his first guess.

Mike and Lane I'm with you!