for those of you who don't subscribe to The Hunting Report, just got this month's issue. interesting article about a 100 lb elephant killed last year in Moz. the ph was Peter Wood, who works for Roger Whittal Safaris. the client was a German fellow. seems the animal was shot in Roger's concession, wounded, followed up and killed in the neighboring concession. when wildlife authorities checked on it, it turns out that not only were there no ele permits for Whittal's concession but there were no permits for the entire province. tusks were confiscated and fines are still being figured out( apparently 3 different governments agencies are involved). not too surprisingly, no one from Roger Whittals Safaris has yet responded to the Hunting Report request for clarification. before anyone attacks me with complaints about what a great company this is, i am just relaying what was in the article.

Not to make excuses, but perhaps the temptation of a hundred pounder in shooting range overwhelmed those involved.

Reminds me of a story of a couple of game wardens who used a replica of the boone and crockett number one whitetail to induce road hunting. The judge threw out all the cases being a hunter himmself and stated the temptation was simply too great.

Jeff

Just to be that close to a giant elephant is enough... Pick up your rifle and aim and say, " I had you if I wanted but no license.." Then take a camera out and bang him with a lifetime shot a picture of him and what could have happened"
A magnificient bull killed for nothing, sad...

Temtation hits all of us...But knowing it is illegal to me is even worse...

Mike

If true, and the PH approved the shot, both the SOBs should do serious jail time in Moz IMO.

As with the shooting of the big tuskers in Hwange Park, I am sorry to read this.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=618101469#618101469

I would sure like to hear the "rest of the story". Whittall has a sterling reputation.

according to the Hunting Report, the Moz. authorities intend to make an example of all involved as a warning to others. the tusks have been confiscated and are in storage.. USFWS uses examples like this as the reason they won't approve a Moz. ele export quota- their position being that wildlife agencies there are not doing enough to curtail illegal hunting- true or not, that is the position USFWS is taking.

The rest of the story (Not quite first hand, but not really second hand either):

Guy Whittall, Roger's son, and an acron that fell far, far from the tree, (Roger is increasingly retired from the business) set the hunt up and was supposed to make sure the quota came through. He didn't follow up.

Peter is assured all is square and is scheduled to take the hunt and goes on his way assured paper work is to follow...

No more suprised fellow than Peter, except perhaps his client.

I've know Peter for a number of years and he is a great guy and a straight guy. I had dinner with Peter not long after the event, and at that time he knew of no irregularity at all and was "chuffed" to the Nth degree, as anyone would be. He has got to be devistated by Guy's FU. Same with Magara, who was also on the hunt.

Worse, Guy sent an email around that all but claimed that Guy was the PH on the elephant hunt. This was before the FU came to light.

BTW, I'm not accusing Guy of setting up an illegal hunt and purposely sending Peter and the client off elephant hunting without quota. Just of a major league, unforgivable, irresposible, completely avoidable SNAFU, of the sort, but worse than typical, of which Guy is all to prone.

Peter's only FU was assuming that Guy had things squared away, as is his job and as he told Peter he had, and assuming that Guy would do what he said he'd do, as was Guy's responsiblity.

JPK

I don't believe the hunt should have taken place without the quota "in hand" and secure. All are guilty, including the hunter for not making sure all paperwork was in place BEFORE the hunt took place. Greed, plain and simple...as you can imagine the amount of cash changing hands on such a tusker. Large fines and jail time for all of them, plus a loss of license for the PH and the safari outfitter. Its proper to make an example out of these type people.

Woodrow,

Perhaps I wasn't clear, Guy told Peter that the quota was in hand. Peter works for Guy. Guy and his sister run RWS day to day, not Peter.

As far as checking the paper work, I'll plead guilty to not ever having checked it for eighteen elephants or any of the other game I've shot while on safari.

JPK

somehow i doubt the hunter will come back from Germany to face the music. Whittal and Wood, on the other hand are in a much more vulnerable position. as far as the hunter making sure the paperwork was in order, i don't see that as an issue. if you book an elephant hunt, you shouldn't have to check and make sure your outfitter crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's. that's what you pay him for. maybe i am just naive, but i have never checked all the paperwork associated with any of my safaris( maybe i have just been lucky).

Perhaps this is a really good reason to check...going forward. I wonder how many hunters actually shot game without the quota's in-hand, and were just lucky that they did not get checked at that moment. Lots of people paid to shuffle paperwork are not too bright. If your gonna take someone elses word for it, prepare to pay the price when shit hits the fan. Just as you can be charged as an accessory to a crime, without even knowing one was about to take place...just because you were there. No different here. Its real easy to become complacent/ignorant about laws when big money is at play and timing of the hunt is of essence.

I wouldn't know how the paperwork needed to be filled out in the first place. I have always seen my hunting license and had my gun paperwork directly from the responsible folks in both Zimbabwe and Zambia, but the quota seems to be a bit nebulous sometimes. In Zambia, my PH would call the main office to make sure they had one for some stuff (Waterbuck, Zebra, Croc...) but the Hippo, Lion, and Buff tags he had in his book.

It is my understanding that while if I shot something that I didn't have quota on, I could be fined, have my guns confiscated, and be deported, that was little compared to the professional consequences to the PH.

I have met Peter, and he is a nice guy, and I can't believe he wouldn't have exercised the usual due caution. That being said, this is something that could really hurt him, I would think. It may well be that Mozambique operates a little differently than Zimbabwe where he was usually hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
I don't believe the hunt should have taken place without the quota "in hand" and secure. All are guilty, including the hunter for not making sure all paperwork was in place BEFORE the hunt took place. Greed, plain and simple...as you can imagine the amount of cash changing hands on such a tusker. Large fines and jail time for all of them, plus a loss of license for the PH and the safari outfitter. Its proper to make an example out of these type people.

How many hunters(clients) would be able to verify if the papers were in order?

In Moz would they be written in English?

On 4 different hunts I have never checked the to see if my PH and outfitter have the proper licenses and paperwork. Frankly I have no idea what to even look for. If you book with a reputable outfit they should have everything in order. On the other hand I've always heard that RWS is a reputable outfit.
Have any of you ever checked to see if your PH/outfitter has the proper permits/quota/whatever?

Have hunted with Peter and I hope this gets sorted out, which I'm sure it will (the Moz way)
RW Safaris have a lot at stake with their new Moz area.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Perhaps this is a really good reason to check...going forward. I wonder how many hunters actually shot game without the quota's in-hand, and were just lucky that they did not get checked at that moment. Lots of people paid to shuffle paperwork are not too bright. If your gonna take someone elses word for it, prepare to pay the price when shit hits the fan. Just as you can be charged as an accessory to a crime, without even knowing one was about to take place...just because you were there. No different here. Its real easy to become complacent/ignorant about laws when big money is at play and timing of the hunt is of essence.

Woodrow,

Amoungst other issues within this last ridiculous post, to become a criminal, you must join in a crime or a conspiracy to comit a crime. It takes an actual criminal action, an intention to take an actual criminal action or to assist in criminal action to become a criminal.

Merely being a bystander does not make a criminal.

While ignorance of the law is rarely if ever an excuse, it sure does remove any criminal intent. Here, no one is claiming ignorance of the law, just ignorance that Guy 1. didn't do what he was supposed to do and 2. didn't do what he said he'd done. I think Peter and the client's reliance on Guy having done what he was supposed to do and what he said he'd done is entirely reasonable.

JPK

You guys wishing jail time on an outfitter for what appears to be a simple mistake clearly don't know what you are suggesting.
You can be pretty sure that they wont make it out if they do go in and if they do it will be as broken people with a short life time left due to the diseases they will be subjected to.

The internet has made it easy to pass reckless comment, but please bear in mind that these are real people, fellow hunters and most likely people with families.
Put yourself in their shoes and then cast your vote again

Ian

Vlam,

Good post.

I am disappointed for the Elephant. A true 100 lb Elephant deserves more than this. He deserves to be honored for what a truly fine trophy he has become. To think that he may now become "evidence" and possibly destroyed, or stored in a warehouse for years until a "one time off" sale of ivory is permitted.

I would hope that the rarity of this particular set of tusks can be taken into account when the decision is made on how to "dispose" of them.

That Elephant deserves better. A truly unfortunate set of circumstances.

Vlam,



L

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
You guys wishing jail time on an outfitter for what appears to be a simple mistake clearly don't know what you are suggesting.
You can be pretty sure that they wont make it out if they do go in and if they do it will be as broken people with a short life time left due to the diseases they will be subjected to.

The internet has made it easy to pass reckless comment, but please bear in mind that these are real people, fellow hunters and most likely people with families.
Put yourself in their shoes and then cast your vote again

Ian

from re-reading the posts, only Woodrow and Gatogordo appeared to wish for jail time for anyone. i know damn well i didn't. i only reported the info contained in the Hunting Report article and made no judgements concerning what happened to all parties. as Vlam rightly mentioned, jail time in Moz would be a life shattering experience and i wouldn't wish that on anyone for a wildlfe violation.

Perhaps jail time is a bit harsh not knowing the FULL details of the matter. However, if greed or reckless disrespect for the law is at play here...then it would be a whole different matter. Nice people or not, big money at stake and record book trophies can and do have an influence that motivates people to do things they would normally not do. I am sure lots more money will be changing hands soon. I will bet there will be much more caution with respect to proper tags moving forward. I know I am going to want to SEE them.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Perhaps jail time is a bit harsh not knowing the FULL details of the matter. However, if greed or reckless disrespect for the law is at play here...then it would be a whole different matter. Nice people or not, big money at stake and record book trophies can and do have an influence that motivates people to do things they would normally not do. I am sure lots more money will be changing hands soon. I will bet there will be much more caution with respect to proper tags moving forward. I know I am going to want to SEE them.

As a former resident of the country mentioned in this topic, I can assure all that you would not wish jail time on your worst enemy in most African countries. I think we sometimes err to think that foreign standards are equivalent to those of the US or Western Europe. 'Taint so.

Also, I've never checked any paperwork either. How many of us read Portuguese well enough to understand all terms and conditions? Ditto for the French-speaking countries?

BTW, another issue of Hunting Report recently discussed an Arizona elk taken in a somewhat gerrymandered unit outside the permitted portion. If memory serves the guides stopped to show off the elk to a warden which is when the axe fell. So even the guides did not understand the permit boundaries they had in hand, written in plain English.

We are all fallible.

Forgive my ignorance, I don't know how quotas are issued etc. from reading what was written, the PH and the client were told by the outfitter that they had the quota so I don't see any intent there.

Does the the outfitter/safari company get paper or computer printouts of what they have quota for?

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Perhaps jail time is a bit harsh not knowing the FULL details of the matter. However, if greed or reckless disrespect for the law is at play here...then it would be a whole different matter. Nice people or not, big money at stake and record book trophies can and do have an influence that motivates people to do things they would normally not do. I am sure lots more money will be changing hands soon. I will bet there will be much more caution with respect to proper tags moving forward. I know I am going to want to SEE them.

I've always found that those who see a crook in everyone, see themselves.

JPK

Woodrow - Since you don't have one single fact in this matter other than hearsay here and on the Hunt Report any type of judgement on your part is way off base. How nice of you to hold your own court, prosecute without facts and judge the parties guilty and pass sentence from your easychair. All real easy to do on a computer screen I guess?? Give us all a break!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Perhaps jail time is a bit harsh not knowing the FULL details of the matter. However, if greed or reckless disrespect for the law is at play here...then it would be a whole different matter. Nice people or not, big money at stake and record book trophies can and do have an influence that motivates people to do things they would normally not do. I am sure lots more money will be changing hands soon. I will bet there will be much more caution with respect to proper tags moving forward. I know I am going to want to SEE them.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:I will bet there will be much more caution with respect to proper tags moving forward. I know I am going to want to SEE them.

Good luck getting your outfitter to show you your "tags".

Granted, my first post was a bit too much...it angers me to see this sort of thing happening. However, there is nothing out of place on the last post. Reread it please. That IS the real world. Money spoils many. Trust but verify.

JPK...you will never meet a more honest person. Period! That was a cheap shot...but all is forgiven because I know you are as pissed as I am.

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
\The internet has made it easy to pass reckless comment,

Anonynmity and impunity. Those two as bestowed by Saeed and the internet combined with a keyboard.

What heros come to fruition.

Trial by internet is always a riduiculously inaccurate excercise. It's usually wrong and always starts needless pissing matches and bad feeling.

Roger Whittal has been in the business for many years and (to the best of my knowledge at least) has an impeccable reputation and Mozambique has always been notorious for the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, endless paperwork stuff ups. (Both unintentional and otherwise) and things up there are rarely all they seem at first glance.

Probably the best thing to do is just sit back and wait for further developments before condemning anyone......

quote:

for those of you who don't subscribe to The Hunting Report, just got this month's issue. interesting article about a 100 lb elephant killed last year in Moz. the ph was Peter Wood, who works for Roger Whittal Safaris. the client was a German fellow. seems the animal was shot in Roger's concession, wounded, followed up and killed in the neighboring concession. when wildlife authorities checked on it, it turns out that not only were there no ele permits for Whittal's concession but there were no permits for the entire province. tusks were confiscated and fines are still being figured out( apparently 3 different governments agencies are involved). not too surprisingly, no one from Roger Whittals Safaris has yet responded to the Hunting Report request for clarification. before anyone attacks me with complaints about what a great company this is, i am just relaying what was in the article.

Hi


Wonder where the hunting report got a official statement from? (Name, Position etc.) There is only one person who could issue a official statement to this issue and this would be the Provincial Director of Tourism for the Niassa Province and he has not made a statement by 1st of March on the issue. Further he would only consider any replay to a formal written request for any statement he told me last Friday.

He also told me that he received a call from the USA and told them to send a fax with a formal request which never happens.

Regarding 3 different government agencies are involved call this guessing at the best if not BS! If it was shot in the hunting area it is under Tourism if shot outside it is Agriculture business.

Regarding shot in somebody others concession that is BS the only concession having a common border with they area is ours and this is on the northern side. On the southern side there is at least a 20km wide strip to the next area so much for map reading and information.

As for no quota for the area yes and no!

Mozambique get only 40 elephant permits per year from CITES and this is the official allocation which gets distributed in a “mysterious” way! Not all issued tags will be actually taken up by the operators to whom they have been allocated. These allocated not used / wanted tags can be made available in areas with sustainable elephant population which did not get a tag for the season.
This has to be arranged before hand with the provincial director!

I know, because I seen, a copy of the by the provincial government proposed quota for the season and they asked the central gov.for 2 elephant per area however the central government did not applied? or got a increase in Cites quota thus there where no elephant tags available for the new areas in Niassa.

As far as I heard there was a go ahead from the old provincial director for the area to hunt one elephant if a spare / not used tag could be allocated.

My take on issue is: that a bunch of youngsters and newcomers shot a 100lbs elephant and some operators are not so happy about it and stirring the pot! If I would be a 50lbs elephant no one would give a s...t!

Lets wait and see what the official written statement will show before coming to conclusion based on incomplete or misinformation purposeful? feed to the media !

But then all Safari hunting in Niassa, is technically illegal!

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

But then all Safari hunting in Niassa, is technically illegal!

Niassa Provence or reserve?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

But then all Safari hunting in Niassa, is technically illegal!

Niassa Provence or reserve?

Oz both


Cheers

Can someone please clarify what is meant by "hunting in Niassa provence preserve is illegal".
I have been talking to Guy about Qty 2 leopard hunts and sable for 2009. This thread has me a little nervous now.
Can you hunt legally in MOZ?

quote:

technically illegal

Motor City

“technically illegal” Is very simple the law says; as non resident you can only be issued with type A hunting license. However the law also says that type A licenses can only be issued for licensed Game farms and Coutadas Official’s which is something similar but not the same as a concession! Ok some operators call their areas Coutadas but in fact there only few Coutadas left in Mozambique from the Portuguese times. These are Coutada 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, all south of the Zambezi river in Sofala and Manica provinces. The “concession” or open areas are singled out in the law are for Mozambican nationals only and there would be a type B licence issued!

In practise most of the officials don’t know this law, don’t understand or don’t care!

All that is needed add two words in the law and we all would be happy we waiting for this since 1999 (work is in progress just nobody started yet)! Latest development is that this areas will become Coutadas official only problem there is no regulation how to do this so this has to be done first! I don’t want to guess how long this will take if adding 2 words to the law takes this long.

Yes there is legal hunting and good hunting. So relax and enjoy your hunt!

Freischuetz,
How is hunting in the Niassa? Should we have any problem with 2 Leopard and 2 Sables in MOZ?
What other animals are in that area?

Hello everyone,

Speaking on behalf of Roger Whittall: this elephant was not shot illegally - as far as Roger and everyone else involved is concerned, it was all above board. There was no huge financial gain - the hunt was actually sold as an exploratory hunt in an untouched wilderness area, the money used to develop said area. It was not shot in anyone else's area either, as Freischuetz has suggested. As Freischuetz also suggested, someone has got their wires seriously crossed in this instance.

Thanks to those of you who approached this in an open-minded fashion and did not feel the need to immediately begin trashing the fine reputation that Roger Whittall Safaris has.

Cheers,
Dave

I was hoping you would post Dave, realizing that your ability to speak on the subject is somewhat limited. It is just a shame that what should have been celebrated - the taking of a ~100lb ele - is instead clouded with controversy. I hope that it gets sorted to everybody's satisfaction, and that the tusks do not end up being lost/pilfered. Keep us updated, okay? Regards, Bill

Thanks Dave.

Bill C,

Thanks for your understanding with this one. You are correct - my ability to speak on the subject is certainly limited, as I have never been involved with any operation in Mozambique and do not really know what happened in this instance. But this I do know: I have had the great pleasure of knowing Roger Whittall my entire life and have never heard of him engaging in any illegal activity whatsoever. A straighter man there cannot be. I am sure that any members of this site who have had any dealings with Roger will back me on this. What I wrote in my first post came directly from Roger himself.

Dave