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Originally posted by surestrike:

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Originally posted by Frostbit:

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Originally posted by shootaway:

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Originally posted by Frostbit:

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Originally posted by shootaway:

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by Safari2:
Zambia definately having a good year coming out of the gate. You would be suprised, I follow some sites in Moz and they are having a decent year despite the recent incident in C10.

My booking agent has told me Zambia is taking many booking from Zimbabwe. Zambia pricing has remained stable, Zim has lost its mind. Tanzania, well, what can you say.

That is only normal.Hunters go hunting to shoot something not to go fishing and sightseeing.

Nice that you appointed yourself spokesman for all "hunters". If hunting were simply about shooting something than most african hunters would book a RSA high fenced low priced affair.

Joyce and I hunt for many reasons. Yes it usually involves shooting something but not always. I've passed on game I knew would be near impossible to retrieve while hunting for the freezer. Still enjoyed every minute.

We've hunted Africa five times in in four different countries. We shot things but our talk of the memories include misty mornings on the Kafue river, the lighting of brush fires, time spent around the campfire.

Flat tires, doves calling, red sunsets.

I can regularly shoot things in Alaska and I do. That often includes a lot of work and I love that Joyce and I can still do the work ourselves.

George, hunting is way more than shooting things.

Cheers
Jim

I don't consider you a hunter but something else-I don't know the exact term would be.

Thank you George. Considering your limited definition of hunter I'll accept that I am not one.

Carry on Troll.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

looks like you paid attention during your psychiatry block. Well handled sir.

You are the one who thought there was a war going on while you were in Harare airport.Why don't you join your buddies in Brazil? I will feel sorry for anyone there who you come across.

Let's see, just looking on the AR hunt offerings we see:

* Buffalo hunts being offered in multiple countries for $9K and $10K including the trophy fee;
* A sitatunga hunt being offered for around $11K including the trophy fee;
* Leopard hunts being offered for $18K including the trophy fee; and
* Non-trophy elephant hunts being offered for around $13K including the trophy fee.

Seems like the market is doing just what one would expect, the market got overpriced and it is correcting based on supply and demand fundamentals. When I hear things though like the average hunter has been priced out of the market . . . if you are not a buyer when a buffalo hunt is $10K . . . then have you really been priced out of the market or are you simply not in the market?

Hunting in Africa ebbs and flows, hunters come and go, countries open and countries close . . . but the imminent demise of hunting in Africa is overstated in my view.

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Hunting in Africa ebbs and flows, hunters come and go, countries open and countries close . . . but the imminent demise of hunting in Africa is overstated in my view.

+1...

Guys from A outfitters side I watch this thread closely... and take note, however lots of things has changed for us to that had a massive impact on our business, lets just take the CRAZY USFW laws on lions and elephant imports lately as A example. There is allot of negative stuff said on here "however most of it from just the same posters" Lots of bargain hunts to be had!! I don't know a single outfitter that is not prepared to negotiate a price, airfare is almost at a all time low. I have clients in camp right now that paid $1250 round trip on Delta. There is allot of hunters that has never being to Africa that watch this website lets inform them make sure they book with a reputable outfitter get prices on taxidermy and dip and pack before the time and then decide, hell but reading some of the negative stuff on here will make us all depressed!!

I can't see it stop anytime soon.
Hunting is under pressure for many years, as many other things that are not "mainstream".
But to be honest, times are great!
Many great and remote hunts are pretty affordable and travel is easy and cheap. Besides all the rumors the world is pretty safe too and you can hunt many different countries without issues. You can be in a remote area of Africa tomorrow and for a price that inflation-adjusted is probably similar to what people paid decades ago.

I am also suprised that people "just" quit hunting. Hunting has never been a hobby for me. It has been my passion since I can walk and there is NO WAY I would stop just because it gets difficult or whatever. I'll be chasing wild game until my last day.

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hunts are pretty affordable

My view on the lowering of hunt prices is supply and demand. Some Zim PHs (many well known with good areas) are lowering prices to keep clientele coming over. If there was a waiting line at the booking agent's office the prices would still be climbing.

Now, step two, is to evaluate the why as to why are there fewer hunters booking. One PH I met in July told me he had a two month wait until his next client. Everyone knows his name. Times are tough now, we hunters are cashing in now. Soon it may be over.

What can cause it to be over? Freight companies not transporting trophies, strict gun laws while traveling (suppose a senator or representative passed a bill stating all public airports were gun free zones; i.e. no firearms allowed? That would kill most domestic travel hunts and international hunts.
Just sayin.'
Cal

Just been offered a Lion hunt in one of Zambia's top concession for half of the original advertised price.

Unfortunately next year looks like another slow year for the economy but I hope I am wrong.Fortunately we will continue to see some good prices.

Hunting in America is coming to an end. In fifty years there will not be any hunting in the USA with a firearm. Our government wants to control everything. Private land tax is constantly increasing and we know Clinton is not a fan of individual land owners. Their argument will be why do Americans need guns if there is no hunting! My ten year old Son got suspended from a private school for drawing a picture of his hunting rifle. I quit posting and game on FB when PETA fanatics threatened to burn down hunting lodges. I have heard that several of the competition shooting programs that some schools have are starting to close.

Look at the age demographics boys and girls. Both international trophy hunting and the big hunting organizations. Shouldn't need to explain where that is heading. The same problem is evident on a local basis in country, although not as pronounced in SOME rural areas.

I live in rural farm country. Where the schools have not been shut down due to the lack of children and a population that is dwindling and also suffers from an average age in excess of 60 years.............. a rural class of students with 32 kids in the class, may only have one or two of the students who hunt.

In the big cities it is even worse and the education system is extremely left leaning and anti-hunting/firearms.

You can choose to view the issue through rose coloured glasses if you want, but there is a reason there are many long time outfitters who have sold out and more who are trying to. Even with fishing lodges........ there are a lot of remote ones who have thrown in the towel and sit dormant due to fewer well heeled clients that can afford the trips.

I have been watching this come for 30 years. It was not difficult to see where things were heading.

There use to be a large number of middle class farmers and ranchers in this country. When my Father started farming in the 60's there were over 3,000 farmers in our county. He retired 15 years ago and there were only 800. The Chinese and big agriculture companies are taking over. People are moving to the cities in masses which reduces our rural culture. Statistics show that if people are not exposed to hunting at an early age then they are not likely to start or approve of the sport later in life.

Africa is still cheaper than North America.
I just finished a hunt with my son for antelope. Cost was nearly the same as a plains game hunt in Namibia or Botswana.

Do what you can afford. The laws change back and forth.

I quit hunting in Texas over the practices and the prices. Is the sky falling there? No, not at all. It is just that I prefer other places now.

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Originally posted by Caracal:
I can't see it stop anytime soon.
Hunting is under pressure for many years, as many other things that are not "mainstream".
But to be honest, times are great!
Many great and remote hunts are pretty affordable and travel is easy and cheap. Besides all the rumors the world is pretty safe too and you can hunt many different countries without issues. You can be in a remote area of Africa tomorrow and for a price that inflation-adjusted is probably similar to what people paid decades ago.

I am also suprised that people "just" quit hunting. Hunting has never been a hobby for me. It has been my passion since I can walk and there is NO WAY I would stop just because it gets difficult or whatever. I'll be chasing wild game until my last day.

I agree. There are some great bargains out there for plains game hunting....it is just the DG hunts that have gotten so expensive.

Hunting and guns have been under attack for the last 40 years. Liberal left wings give millions each year to "kitty cats and puppy dogs" and let's not leave out "save the whales, seals and killer sharks." If American gun owners were to join the NRA (just using them as an example) there would be around 100 million members and no anti-gun legislation would ever be on the house or senate floor. Same with SCI (I use them as they do spend a lot of money fighting for hunters rights and conservation, I'd say more than any other group financially), if every hunter worldwide belonged, it would be near impossible to stop hunting. But there are too many excuses why those numbers are not there, and I've heard too many to print here. Yes, we are losing ground, day by day. I post my hunting business, my web site and hunt reports. Someone wants to threaten my life or any part of it, I'll send your cowardly attack to the FBI. Doesn't matter to me if they don't come and arrest the perp, it gives me satisfaction to know THEY ARE LOOKING AT THIS COWARD! They have their name; or maybe they DO want to look hard and do a deep cavity search. I used to think Ted Nugent was over the top; not anymore. He stands up to these mental midgets and won't take a step backwards. I agree with that method: we have to stop cowering and hiding. That's a job for poachers.

On the high cost of hunting; yes it is, and in some cases, way over the top. For what a Moose or Stone Sheep will cost you, you can go to Africa and have a damn good safari. You won't be taking the Big 5 but I sell the hell out of 10 days, 10 plains game animals and 90% return over and over and the other 10% wish they could. But then by the time you add airfare, dip/pack/shipping and taxidermy, you've doubled the price. Even our clothing, ammo, guns, bino's, scopes, boots and assorted gear is expensive. Everyone is out to make money off the sportsman and women. Billions are made each year off hunting and the direct association of it. I do believe it is possible that one day all the industries, outfitters, hunters and players will realize we best unite. When that day comes, we may save hunting. Anti-liberals are not going away. In fact their breeding like rats, and their agenda is festering. I urge those of you that love hunting to encourage others to join the sport and support those organizations that fight for hunting and firearms ownership. Fishing is next..."You mean you stabbed that minnow with a hook and fed him to that fish? You killer you!"

Well said.

At times I have some hope for the future. I met a young man and his father last weekend from the Dallas area. The son is in a high school that offers an Outdoor Adventures class. Out of 7000 students in the school, 700 attend this class. They have archery and firearm shooting teams, promote conservation, and promote hunting and fishing. I wish every school offered this course. We need to support these programs when possible.

Well, on the bright side...

I just got an email about Zambia re-opening lion hunting for 2017 season, so there is a big bright spot.

COP 17 is finishing up and maybe some good will flow or not .

There are many reasons for the decline in African hunting and are well discussed above.

My thoughts are that one of the biggest confluence of coffin nails is that as much as anti hunters have infiltrated CITIES so have business people infiltrated hunting , turning it into a industry . This has changed the face of hunting. From a outdoor adventure /sport into a business with all its associated evils , from over the top made for TV programs , to high profile marketing of killing (not hunting , they are very different ).

Every person with a piece of land or 4/4 became a hunting outfitter and so the marketing battles began . Taking the sport into the public domain and making it a very profitable business for the anti hunting entrepreneurs.

Make no mistake there are some exceptional people in hunting but have you noticed how they are not such great marketers or businessman, success has come from hard honest reliable work than rather than from major and elaborate advertising , to put a face to what I mean , guys like Buzz and Miles , Andrew Baldrey, to name just 2 so you can understand my point . These are hunters who had to become businessmen. Where as on the opposite side There are way to many businessmen that have become outfitters which led to over pricing and its associated problems , this led to the perception by governments that great wealth could be captured from hunting and along came corruption , with all of this came the ammo for the anti hunting entrepreneurs.

Yes everything will evolve and be competitive etc, but the reality is just like on the other thread about Dawie Groenewald going from policeman to multi millionaire bringing all the worst to hunting imaginable, illustrates the fact that hunting attracted businessmen both good and bad .
The bad has in my mind contributed the most to cause the decline.

This is much the same issue we ran to ground a few months back on high price of hunting

it is a perfect storm of

wrong headed politics politicians

excessive ill informed regulation
bad media '' remember the old THE MEDIA IS THE MESSAGE discovered by the alberta school teacher
bad economy the oil patch guys are a big piece of africa
the new 2 mile shooting contest and the ar 15 crowd with all the young blood

pricing to what the market would bare in 2008 in a mindless run away trend driven by government and us outfitters us safari operators and us hunter referral promoters we all drove it a bit to high

it is in south africa fenced-- cheaper than an arizona elk hunt -- 1/2 of alaska-- better than a 40 ac food plot in whitetail country

so lots of low cost high value hunts will continue but the short supplies and high cost of a double rifle ain't coming back any time soon

i have not always agreed with the point david keith is making but i do now i am ready to join with him in this stand your ground fight

Keith i just took my family to sa on a fenced hunt

made damn sure everyone put blood on a rifle helped skin a bit even if it was just a little bit made em mix with real hunters some of them military killers finders of freedom if you will

had the meat we harvested cooked in the round pot of the boar

it is those 4 girls and 1 granddaughter that will raise and shape the next 2 generations of people that save biodiversity globally not just africa

it only cost me one good elephant hunt

my god look at the value of that at compound interest over time


we can do this thing we need to get smarter learn how to work to gather and get off our collective ass

The feedback coming from the CITES CoP17 meeting so far is elephant hunting is in the crosshairs and lion not far behind.

The industry may be in for a bumpy ride.

Sad state of affairs.

This issue was highlighted to the forum several years ago outlining the negative factors which were weighing against the hunting industry and the sport itself.

The warning was taken lightly and actually scoffed at by the naive majority within the hunting community and the industry, who are now feeling the pinch and paying the price of their stubbornness as the results which currently enacted in the form of restrictions and bans are gaining momentum.

At this rate it won't be long before the anti-hunting mob will have achieved its mission albeit to the detriment of the wildlife they claim to protect.

We can but only blame ourselves for our selfish, self-centered attitudes.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
This issue was highlighted to the forum several years ago outlining the negative factors which were weighing against the hunting industry and the sport itself.

The warning was taken lightly and actually scoffed at by the naive majority within the hunting community and the industry, who are now feeling the pinch and paying the price of their stubbornness as the results which currently enacted in the form of restrictions and bans are gaining momentum.

At this rate it won't be long before the anti-hunting mob will have achieved its mission albeit to the detriment of the wildlife they claim to protect.

We can but only blame ourselves for our selfish, self-centered attitudes.

Very true. One thing I read a lot in threads like these "I belong to (name whatever organization) and therefore I'm helping. Yes but only to a small degree. What most of these groups fighting for your rights as hunter need as much or more than your money is your help. Sitting back hoping things will change isn't working. Just look at the changes that have occurred to hunting laws for those traveling the hunt between Africa and the US in the last couple years. This isn't going to magically get better if you don't personally get into the fight yourself.

As a past director of a state hunting organization the hardest thing is to get people to volunteer. Most will say "I gave you my money what more do want" than ignore pleas to come and help. It takes people in masses to email, phone, write letters or whatever it takes to make things happen. If you want hunting to continue to decline then do what your doing now which us very little.

I just returned from SA, have not hunted there for several years having hunted mainly Zim in the last decade.

I was shocked to see settlements encroaching the fenced game farms everywhere. And even more shocked to hear that many "formerly disadvantaged" South Africans feel that the "revolution" did not go far enough, especially with regard to nationalization of the mines banks and factories, and especially with regard to land redistribution. The students are burning the universities because the ANC "sold out the revolution" and did not deliver on their promises including free college for all. Mandela is being recast as a "sellout" who used the "revolution" for personal enrichment. You won't read this in the USA. The new voters have finally discovered that politicians lie and steal, and that they are not going to get to the promised land via the ballot box. Generally when that happens in Africa a coup or civil war ensues.

Reading the newspaper, the country seems obsessed with "transformation" which basically means seizure of anything of value by the gov't, the politically connected, and the ANC faithful. Even the SAA in flight magazine is full of Marxist doublespeak.

Given that the ANC is losing ground politically, I feel that there will be one more spasm of destructive land seizures before long. Just like in Zim, the game farms will be on the list for this second act. So I think much of the remaining natural habitat for wild animals will be settled (a euphemism for f'd up).

Thus I think the days of hunting SA are numbered. Tanzania and Zim are sinking fast under political incompetence and rabid poaching. Botswana is closed except private land and those guys are struggling due to lack of clientele. Mozambique, which was looking up, is returning to civil war. That leaves Namibia and Zambia both of which are small in comparison to SA in terms of capacity. So I would agree with the OP's opinion that the revival is over and the future is troubled.

Let's hope that Botswana reopens instead of going down the bushmeat/ivory path, and that SA and Zim undergo changes for the better when the wheel turns. And above all, something needs to be done to curb population growth in Africa.