I even saw one (a dummy) at the Reno show. The round will be loaded in Norma cases and 400-grain Woodleigh bullets (both soft and solids). They have not decided to what velocity to load yet because of the older orginal rifles out there. The even asked my input. I suggested 2300 to 2400 fps, which is what RWS offered before dropping the caliber.

This is VERY good news. The first offerings should be available to the public around April 1.

Hey Will.....you too could have had one...

quote:

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Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
I even saw one (a dummy) at the Reno show. The round will be loaded in Norma cases and 400-grain Woodleigh bullets (both soft and solids). They have not decided to what velocity to load yet because of the older orginal rifles out there. The even asked my input. I suggested 2300 to 2400 fps, which is what RWS offered before dropping the caliber.

This is VERY good news. The first offerings should be available to the public around April 1.

---

That is good news. Hope it is less than $200.00 US per box of 20.

Will they be nickel plated or plain brass?

Ray Atkinson has ressurected the .404 Jeffery, single handedly.

Thanks Ray.

Now on to the .423 Dakota.

quote:

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Originally posted by GAHUNTER:

"Now on to the .423 Dakota."

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Why and for what logical reason?

Ho hum. Let's wait and see what Charlie Kokesh, CEO of Dakota Arms, Inc. could possibly be thinking. But I rather like the idea.

I agree....

Why

News Flash: Federal to offer 404 Jeffery in Premium Line of Bullets

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

I think I'm going to have to get a rifle in .404 Jeffery!!

-Bob F.

quote:

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Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
I agree....

Why

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Neither the .404 Jeffery nor the .423 Dakota should be forced on anyone. Take it or leave it.

It is a great thing for the first ever cartridge, from 1905, that could deliver true DGR performance in a bolt action, to be revived by Federal after near death. Shades of the .416 Rigby.

And thank CZ USA also.

Will there be a .505 Gibbs from Federal, and a .450 Rigby too? I won't hold my breath.

As for the .423 Dakota (necked up .338 Lapua Magnum), look back at the previous thread on this.

Rifle loonery/lunacy needs no reason why. It just is.

I am very fond of necking up .338 Lapua to .458 and .375, so a .423 Lapua makes plenty of sense to me.

Meantime I'll be working with the .404 Jeffery, THE ORIGINAL ONE AND ONLY FIRST EVER BOLT ACTION DGR CARTRIDGE.

Yeah, it's still plenty good.

Well,
I just saw a pig fly past my window, and I also just heard reports of a hockey game in hell.

All y'all smarter than us hillbilly brothers (RIP & dart) that are pooh poohing the .423 Dakota would have said the same thing about the .404 Jeffreys a few years ago. I would like to graciously invite y'all to go piss up a rope (in a head wind).

lawndart

quote:

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Originally posted by RIP:

"Meantime I'll be working with the .404 Jeffery, THE ORIGINAL ONE AND ONLY FIRST EVER BOLT ACTION DGR CARTRIDGE.

Yeah, it's still plenty good."

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Certainly no disgreement there.

lawn...

Point taken

quote:

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Originally posted by lawndart:
Well,
I just saw a pig fly past my window, and I also just heard reports of a hockey game in hell.

All y'all smarter than us hillbilly brothers (RIP & dart) that are pooh poohing the .423 Dakota would have said the same thing about the .404 Jeffreys a few years ago. I would like to graciously invite y'all to go piss up a rope (in a head wind).

lawndart

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Long lost brother Charlie,
It's O.K., we was just funnin'. No offense taken.


(Good thinking. Us playing stupid throws them off the new track and back into their old ruts where the self-rigtheous belong. Only a hillbilly coud be interested in a .423 Dakota. Right! Thanks.)

Well RIP, don't disappoint Federal now in their hour of need.

You should start a list of all those that are going to buy several boxes, perhaps dozens, of this factory ammunition, at ??? $100++/box.

I would rather demand they now bring out some other obsolete cartidage, say the 425 Westley Richards, because everyone knows it will do everything the .404 does and does it better.

Or the 416 Taylor??

I think I'll get my sharp pencil out this spring and see if there is room for some profit selling some of these calibers with North Fork bullets at a price point below Federal.

Guess I'll have to stop with the snotty comments. The first rule of commerce: The customer is right. The second rule of commerce: The customer is right. The third rule: No tickee, no washie.

lawndart

Does anyone know which of the various .404 jeffery specifications Federal is following?

"

quote:

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The first offerings should be available to the public around April 1.

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Hmmmmm.....me thinks there's a troll afoot?

I'll be sure to order 10 boxes just a soon as my M77 gets here.

Gentlemen, this IS the second coming, I am in tears...the prince of the big bore has once again been legitamized, you can't keep a good man down and all that...Kudus to Federal and smart thinking for them and CZ....

I would like to see Federal load the 404 to its original specs ie. a 400 grain bullet at 2125 fps, after all that is what makes a 404 a 404 and not one of the various 416,s. The 404 duplicates the 450/400 in a bolt rifle, low recoil, with plenty of penetration with solids and plenty of punch with soft points.
Anyone who has used these ballistics either in a double rifle or a bolt rifle know just what a pleasant and effective hunting cartridge it is. cartridge

Hey Will,
I plan to stock pile some Federal .404 Jeffery, unless lawndart starts selling it with North Forks loaded.
I could use some of the Woodleigh RNSP if I had to.
No thanks on the Woodleigh solids though.
I won't be making any lists though.
Nor would I dream of encouraging anyone in the direction of the .423 Dakota.

I can't believe Federal is bringing out the .404 Jeffery before the .458 Lott.

If they ever get around to bringing out the Lott at all. Doesn't seem to add up.

But I'm happy for all you .404 Jeff. boys.

I've never hunted with my .404 at velocities over 2200 fps and I've never had an animal walk away from and encounter therewith. I agree with you Tony, but will the buying public live without hyper velocity?

This afternoon several of us in the Double Rifle Shooters Society (Eastern Branch) met. (See 1115's post). We all shot my .404 (with A-Square 400 grain Dead Toughs at 2200 fps) and everyone could quite comfortably put bullets in an inch or so at 70 yards, even novices commenting on the light recoil. There is a real place for a .423 caliber bullet with great sectional density and recoil that is lighter than a .375 (or at least seems so.) Just my two cents.

Judge, you are correct, the "modern man" seems to think he needs bullets at the speed of light.
However I still think a 400 grain bullet at 2125 fps would be effective against a Klingon or a Romulan, as well as elephant, buff and lion.

quote:

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The round will be loaded in Norma cases

---

\

quote:

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I can't believe Federal is bringing out the .404 Jeffery before the .458 Lott.

---

quote:

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Doesn't seem to add up.

---

Now, why would Federal need to use Norma brass?

Oh wait....

quote:

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The first offerings should be available to the public around April 1.

---

Something else happens on April 1st, but I can't quite place it......

As discussed, Federal said they will be offering the .404 with Woodleigh softs and solids. In addition, they are planning on offering .458 Lott this summer using 500 grain Trophy Bond Bear Claws and SledgeHammers.

Both Coni Brooks at Barnes and the Federal rep confirmed that Federal will be offering the Triple Shocks and new Banded solids in .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .416 Remington, and .458 WM this summer.

To accompany the .404 Jeffery, .450 Rigby, and .505 Gibbs, CZ will be offering loaded ammunition for each of these new rifles. The ammo will be headstamped "CZ" but will be loaded by A Square. This from Justin at the CZ booth at Reno.

Good news all around.

RCG

Did someone actually accuse me of being a troll with this information? If so, he (or she) hasn't been on this forum very long.

But don't take my word for it. Contact David Leis, Senior Product Development Engineer, Federal Cartridge Company, 900 Ehlen Drive, Anoka, MN 55303. (763) 323-2392; E-mail: david.leis@atk.com

I just happened to walk up to the Federal booth and struck up a conversation with this David Leis person. He asked me, as a hunter, what new calibers I'd like to see Federal offer. Being the one-track minded person that I am, I said "404 Jeffery," expecting to get a laugh. Instead, he thrusts a piece of paper under my nose announcing the release this spring of the 404 Jeffery.

I liked to have crapped in my drawers! He then had me fill out a five-page questionaire on what I would like to see in the future. He said it was this questionaire in past SCI shows that led to the decision to bring the 404 out of retirement. He said that their research has shown that the 404 has very loyal following and is one of the fastest growing cartridges, in terms of use, used on African game.

God Bless you, Ray Atkinson. You now have a legacy similar to Jack O'Conner's association with the .270 Winchester.

Now, if we can just find a legacy for Bill Clinton! Hmmmmmmm.......

Oh, I almost forgot. Mr. Leis thought the retail price was going to be in the $75-$85 range, but did not know for sure. Then he said it should not cost any more than their .416 Rigby ammo.

I guess Mr. Leis hasn't paid retail prices for his ammo lately, because Federal Premium .416 Rigby ammo costs $125 per box from Midway.

Now that Federal will be loading 404 does this mean Weatherby will be offering the 404 in this Model

http://www.weatherby.com/custom_shop/HGI/images/Custom_Large/custom_crown.jpg

.

The original proof load was shot at 2400 fps and that is not what the then factory ammo was loaded to

Alf,

So are the actual/real factory ballistics known.

It would be interesting to know the actual factory ballistics of the 500 as compared to the actual factory ballistics of the 505 Gibbs.

Mike

Out of curiousity, why is CZ not chambering the 500 Jeffery instead of the 505 Gibbs - is it because the 500 jeff case is too short for the 550 action? It would appear that the 500 Jeffery is the superior round.

Mike 375

A book I have "Ammo & Ballistics" shows a Kynoch factory 535gn round at 2400fps for the 500 Jeffery and a Kynoch 525gn factory at 2300fps for the 505 Gibbs.

.

A book I have "Ammo & Ballistics" shows a Kynoch factory 535gn round at 2400fps for the 500 Jeffery and a Kynoch 525gn factory at 2300fps for the 505 Gibbs.

MLG,

But the point Alf is making is the 2400/535 was a proof load and not the actual load.

As to the CZ in 505 Vs 500 Jefferey, I think the 505 is seen as the superior calibre and the 500 was about getting the power into a Mauser 98.

I think the 505 is also the much classier calibre, sort of like comparing a 375 H&H to a 375/338 or a 416 Rigby to 416 Remington etc.

I would imagine that just about everyone who got a Granite Mountain Arms action or the Hartman and Weiss action would have 505 Gibbs and 416 Rigby as opposed to 500 Jeffery and 416 Remington.

Mike

GAHUNTER, please accept my apology! That's great news! I thought for sure you were pulling our collective leg. I've been lead down the primrose path on the 404 before and perhaps was a bit too cynical. Maybe I'm just grumpy because I'm sitting here doing taxes instead of being at the show.

Now if we can get Ruger to actually make that RMS....

With the checkered past of the 500 Jeffery, what would anyone do in deciding whether to bring out a 505 Gibbs or the 500 Jeffery?

And if you have the constitution to use one of these beasts, why is a standard length Mauser action of any real concern, in these days, when the long action CZ is available?

Now there is the 505, the 404, and a 450 Rigby, and you guys still aren't happy??

With RL-15 of today, 2400 fps with a 570 grain bullet in the 500 Jeffery would be a relatively low pressure load, less than 50Kpsi. It is probably just over 50Kpsi in a 500 A2, and the 500 Jeffery is about 10 grains of water bigger than the 500 A2, same bullet.

That is no proof load. That charge weight of 116 grains would be about right for RL-15, for that bullet weight and velocity.

No proof load at all, or very weak proof load.

Yep,
Seat the 570 grain GSC out to 3.75" COL(and crimp) or the 570 gr XLC (no crimp) in the 500 A2 and it beats the case capacity of the 500 Jeffery all to heck. Lower pressure/higher velocity with the 500 A2, take your big as long as you have the 3.8" box of a CZ 550 or such. The standard 0.3500" freebore of the 500 A2 alowws this just fine. My freebore is 0.3000" on the .510 JAB/500 A2.

The 500 A2 rules.

I forget what the throat of the 500 Jeffery is like.

This is good news only because it may get Hornady to produce an economical 400gr IB for practice. I may buy a box to try, but I'll stick w/ my NF handloads.

So maybe some (or one) of the gun manufacturers is going to start MAKING a rifle to go with the new ammo? jorge

Jorge,

Looks like CZ will have one.

See this thread:
.505 Gibbs in 2005 CZ Catalogue

-Bob F.

Hi Folks,

Please help out a neophyte. I have heard nothing but rave reviews of the 404 Jeffrey since joing AR and have read here and else where that the 404 is surprisingly low in recoil. But all things being equal same gun, same weight isn't a 404 / 416 Rem / 416 Rigby going to all have just about the same recoil? It is afterall a 400 grain bullet being pushed at almost the same velocity (2400 fps give or take)???? Your input please, before I do something harsh like buy a new CZ!!!!