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UK to help preserve Tanzania's 137 tonnes of stockpiled ivory By Correspondent David 11th July 2014 A stockpile of ivory that was stored underground is seen after it was confiscated from poachers. (File photo) In what seems to be a new development in the government’s decision to destroy 137 tonnes of stockpiled ivory in conformity with the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), yesterday it accepted a UK offer to help it preserve the tusks. The UK Minister for Africa Mark Simmonds, who was in the country for a two-day visit, made this assurance on Wednesday evening in a meeting with journalists. He said his government will assist Tanzania to preserve its stockpiled ivory as a support to anti-poaching and illegal wildlife trade campaigns carried out by the Tanzanian government. --------- While all the other cretins are destroying theirs! | ||
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And now even the legal ones are staying there. Go figure. " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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If I had it my way I would not issue an elephant permit to a hunter who was not permitted to export it back to his country of residence. | |||
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Can you explain your reasoning on this? Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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JBrown: If the USA will not allow the import of elephant ivory from Tanzania, the hunter can go kill his elephant in a country which is not black-listed by the USF&W and take the ivory home. Why kill it just for the sake/pleasure of doing so and dumping the trophy to be added to the stockpile? Do find this arrangement OK ? | |||
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Because Sir, For some of us it's about the experience. I would certainly prefer to bring the Ivory home as a 3D remembrance of the trip but I am not hunting an Elephant next year solely to get Ivory. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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So hunt a tuskless Ele if you want "the experience". Adding to the Ivory problem should not be a consequence of responsible sport hunting. | |||
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Tell me how legally hunting a Trophy Bull that is on quota is "adding to the ivory problem" simply because I could not import the Ivory? Would you think it someway better if I were to smash the tusks into pieces with a sledge hammer at the end of the hunt? I'm not following the line of thought here. It's OK to hunt a legal Bull on quota, spend the money, benefit the locals and anti-poaching only if the Ivory leaves the country? BTW, I'm not hunting Tanzania next year so you and fujotupu can sleep tight on this. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I agree with Fujo and Ridgeman OK - scenario for here in US. You live in lets say WA Spokane and you wanna hunt just across the border in Idaho. Now Idaho state will say " oh yeah, pay us out of state fee $ 450.00 but you cant take your deer home, sorry, that is our policy " How many of us would still go, pay and went home empty handed? I'm doing this strictly just to let people see what it would be like here in States " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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People in California do that right now if they hunt Mt. Lion or Wolverine out of State unless I'm mistaken. I bet some still hunt them because they want to. Do you think the outfitters benefit any less from the income or more importantly in Africa do you think the Trophy Value placed on the Elephant and the money from the hunt does anything to help fight poaching? It's hard for me to understand when hunters say that the hunting dollars aid in placing value to wildlife and support their habitat while fighting poaching how the value from the hunting is different because the Ivory doesn't leave or in the US example, the Mt. Lion doesn't go back to California. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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you are absolutely right, Jim. if i shoot a mountain lion outside CA,i can't even legally bring the taxidermied trophy home. utter bullshit but a fact. i guess according to these clowns i just shouldn't hunt one. in fact, i basically don't bring any trophies home anymore since my house is jammed full. so i guess i should just quit hunting. what a HUGE pile of unadulterated BS!!!!!  according to Aus govt websites, the folks down under are not allowed to import ivory( without a pre- CITES CERTIFICATE) and leopard.i guess that means that, according to the esteemed OZ poster above, they should only hunt cows and no leopard at all. too bad....... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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It's just a different outlook boys Don't take it personally Once you start taking discussions and opinions of others too personal, you become the clown " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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I still have not seen how it is any different whether the Ivory comes home or not. I understand you would not want to pony up the bucks without the trophy and that is certainly your right but how is it any different to the outfitter, trackers, anti-poaching team, etc? The only difference I see, unless you can explain otherwise, is that in your case there would be no hunt. That means no experience for you and no money for the folks mentioned above. Remember it's Fish and Wildlife making this decision not the folks in Tanzania or Zimbabwe. BTW, you'll have to excuse Jerry, he passes gas for a living.  Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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The personal satisfaction is in the hunt itself for some, not necessarily in then possessing some post-hunt material trophy. Those just seeking the experience, is like having an intangible asset to remember the hunt by, such an asset is not material like ivory, instead it is one that cannot be perceived by the senses. Just think about when buying someone business, the stock and shop fit out may be materially valued, but you may actually be paying a lot more for the intangible goodwill that comes with the business. | |||
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If you let the USFW boys win, and never hunt what they say you can't import, we all lose. Hunt them anyway. Show that they matter not in the least. Store your trophies with a good friend overseas, and plan to bug out, quit paying this ridiculous government's taxes, etc. I might rethink if the incredibly ignorant American electorate chooses to elect competant leaders. Until we prevent most Democrats from voting, somehow, that seems unlikely. | |||
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Could be that you are focused on killing for the sake of killing and in the case of the Elephant, in all his majesty and dwindling numbers, you feel that its OK to pay the bucks and leave the trophy behind. Tanzania is probably among the hardest hit elephant realms no thanks to organized poaching that seems unstoppable - you and many others have no clue what this is all about and regrettably the subject and its "innermost workings" cannot be discussed about in depth on the internet (something a lot of folks cannot understand either). The bottom line is if you want to contribute to the conservation of the species in this country, then don't shoot an elephant for the sake of killing it, just for the "experience" or the "adrenaline rush". We have enough ivory in our stocks without having to add more just because some hunter/s cannot afford to haul it back home or because the wife has had enough of bones and skulls floating around the house or comes up with a half-assed answer about experiencing the thrill. If the thrill is what rocks your boat by all means rock n roll - somewhere else where your screwed up system (USF&W) hasn't yet stuck its nose; a hunting destination from where you will be permitted to export your trophy back home where you can enjoy looking, polishing and reminiscing over the adventure you experienced. Then you can call yourself a hunter, sportsman and contributor to the conservation of wildlife. Anything short of that only puts you in the same class as the bunch that hunt with the likes of Green Miles. | |||
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so unless you bring something home to put in your house, you shouldn't hunt??? you, sir, are an idiot....Tz is hard hit because it is a cesspool of corruption, starting at the top and flowing downhill, as shit always does. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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how else am i supposed to take it? if i don't intend to bring it home, i shouldn't hunt it?? maybe you would like to pay for a new addition to my house to give the additional space i need to enlarge my 1500 sq ft trophy room as well as the office, guest bedrooms, and other misc spaces that are full of stuff. i would greatly appreciate it. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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I believe people can reminisce quite well by holding the rifle they used to hunt their animals, as they quietly reflect on their past hunts with that rifle. Not every person feels the need for ivory or horns in their study in order to have fond valuable memories of a hunt. To say someone is not a hunter or sportsman because he chooses not to take a physical trophy home, is utter nonsense. | |||
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The argument is on elephant ivory you prick! | |||
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I could understand the problem if you had find somewhere to put a full body or shoulder mount of the elephant but do you really need extra space for a pair of tusks? - Give us a break! | |||
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I don't care much to continue this "discussion". I don't really know every poster's background on this board so I may well be mistaken but are you not a retired outfitter? If so and you were not yet retired would you still be telling me and the rest on this board that may consider hunting with you to forget it? I realize you live there and I do not. you have my empathy for seeing the outright drastic decrease in Elephant numbers. But lets be honest. That was not the fault of trophy hunters. Done and dusted Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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USF&W is making a mockery of CITES. All countries that are signatories to CITE are supposed to have a common policy. Of course, the idiots at USF&W have always had their own. What CITES should do is refuse to issue any permits to countries that have their own policies contradicting them. | |||
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From an outfitter from Zim perspective I am mightily happy that we have alot of clients that will, and have, sided with "frostbit" line of thought and not "fujotupu" The Elephant hunting quota really makes NO difference to the over all elephant numbers or situation (in zim anyway) other then create employment, support communities, run anti poaching operations etc etc etc etc Apart from that what most clients that have hunted ele bulls with us this year had to do was to re-evaluate why they wanted to hunt an ele- and I am pleased to say, bar one fellow, that they all decided that the experience was the most important factor of the hunt and NOT the ivory- hats off to you gentlemen- this is what makes you hunters and not collectors and thank you for supporting hunting and the elephants as a whole! | |||
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+100!! | |||
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Buzz: The elephant hunting program you have in Zim is a completely different scenario to the one in TZ and you know that (or should). 1. We do not have tuskless licenses (though I agree we should) nor do we have sub classification of shootable bulls other than the minimum requirements on weight/length of the tusk/s as established by law. Assuming therefore that the PH has guided and properly judged the targeted elephant, the tusks will be a worthy trophy to keep and has bugger all to do with "collecting". 2. There are no PAC licenses available nor do we have separate licenses that cater for "non-exportable" trophies. 3. Not many of our tribes consume elephant meat and you are unlikely to ever hear of a poached elephant having been dismembered also for its meat. 4. There are no industries in TZ that process the meat, hide or any other parts whether for human consumption , pet food or fertilizer of legally hunted elephants. 5. The hunting of elephant in TZ is regulated by a 21 day permit which includes a full bag and not just elephant - one may of course choose to spend all the 21 days looking for one and not shooting anything else - their choice entirely. 6. Employment in the TZ hunting industry does not rely on the hunting of elephant. 7. Anti-poaching operations in TZ are not reliant on elephant hunts. So, if there are those who choose to go to TZ and spend a shitload of money and shoot an elephant whose ivory they wish to surrender to the govt. by all means do it - as nobody else can have it. Just a senseless waste of a decent elephant bull. Cheers! | |||
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Why did CITES do a backflip in 2008 and allow some African nations to sell their stocks of ivory[Botswana, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe] with some 120 tons of ivory being sold to China and Japan?...Such relaxing of the rules also then allowed illegal ivory to be more easily sold on the market. Who is pulling their strings to have them form such decisions? | |||
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Thing about hunting is that we all do it for different reasons and at the same time we all have so much in common. Thing is, African hunting is very costly so that is the difference of opinion. As simple as that. Some of us will pay even if we can't bring it back and some of us simply will not, but all of us love to hunt. The real and only culprit in this is our own USFWA. Rest of us just ride along. And jdollar, you don't help this discussion by getting pissy. But then after all it is an internet. Over the beer or two, I bet you a dollar or two that we can figure out the differences. " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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I would rather see them do this so ivory could be sold and the money utilized for some useful purpose than burn the bloody lot just to satisfy the incredibly sick feelings of the media! | |||
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Fujotupu has been there and done that. He disagrees with my approach to USFWL, but given his experience, I think his opinions should be considered and taken to heart. I agree with Fujo on this point; I'd hate to turn over a 50-90 lb pair to the government only to destroy. Surely there is another option. Like a transfer to my PH who no doubt put in an insurance shot and certainly could in any event if necessary. I still don't like USFW dictating what I do, or don't do. I don't like government and in my opinion, government should just stay the hell out of my way. When government has got in the way -- Well, that's the thing that revolutions were made of. | |||
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Saeed, Do you really think African leaders consider economics other than their own individual bank accounts? I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Saeed: Tanzania has been trying to get CITES to approve the sale of its ivory stock for years but every attempt has been stonewalled. Up until such a time when and if TZ gets it request approved, the ivory will continue accumulating and who knows that it might eventually find its way to the bonfire. All we need is for the whackos to convince the powers that be, to destroy the stocks. | |||
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Lavaca: I very much doubt there will be any PH or outfitter in TZ today who would accept such a generous offer of being gifted a pair of tusks by the client. | |||
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The ivory was sold for like the average rate of $US157,.. raising million$, whereas the actual black market price at the time was several times that rate. China and Japan got a most favourable & exclusive 'legalised' deal at that rate. The right people in the right places[ high level criminal element] have this ability to make dodgy deals look legit. | |||
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