OK, so maybe I'm not always the sharpest tool in the box, but can someone please tell me what's happening on this forum?........there was a time not too long ago that we had sensible discussions about Africa & African hunting and surely that's what this forum should be for.......but now we seem to have a lot of new members - some of whom are getting into the realms of fantasy & obvious BS and half the posts are nothing more than personal attacks on each others integrity and personalities etc.

C'mon guys, courtesy & honesty cost nothing and surely we owe it to our host to maintain a decent level of decorum.

I've seen 5 year old children that don't bicker as much as some recent posts........

Hey Steve,

It is summer......happens every year.

Oh, well........

Good Hunting,

Bob

Maybe it's something to do with the school holidays?.........

I tend to be a bit of an information absorber and do not post unless I really know what im talking about! and most people dont and for the very reason you are complaining about they do post! I dont want to add rubbish to the forum! I have been to alot of forums and found this to be one of the most informative (with solid information and not info from half the members talking out of their asses.)

I dont want to know whats better 308 or 30-06,
I dont need to know how much you think 7mm magnums are the best,
I dont need to know how you made a brass tumbler out of a tin can some duct tape and an old motor because you too cheap to support the industry.
I am sick of hearing how .338 lapua is your favorite cartridge.

that pretty much sums up the base content of most other forums. long live this one!

ps its hard to contribute info when everyone else has that much more experience! but im trying!.

how about the ever popular threads along the lines of " I own a dbl gun killed one elephant and now I consider myself an authority on all of Africa"
Shakari: you're correct sir! way too much "I'm an internet super slooth and just because I haven't done the item I'm reading about personally it must be a lie . So I must try my best to discredit those that have"
Saeed has made it clear that everyone is free to post, and we are free to read any or all of those posts we so choose. Bearing in mind personal opinions are like another part of the human anatomy ....everyone has one an when it comes down to it none are really that much different.
We're all hunters an enjoy discussing Africa...the common denominator, or we wouldn't be here to begin with. Wyn

I don't know, Steve. As a relative newcomer I understand your point. But, by responding to this thread I'm contributing to the problem of people posting off-topic subjects, since, technically, this thread isn't even remotely related to "African Big Game Hunting".
In the short time I've been here I can't tell you how many times I've fired off a response to some post that (in my "genius" mind) I've considered off-topic, out-of-line, rude, or just plain stupid. Then, asked myself "am I adding anything to this thread?" and deleted it.
Not this time.
Dave

It's not the off topic posts or even the ill informed posts that I find irritating - it's the unnecessary personal attacks. Good manners cost nothing and bad ones insult everyone -

By the way, (almostacowboy) I love your signature and will steal the line to get a laugh out of my clients this season!!!!!! - hope you don't mind

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

C'mon guys, courtesy & honesty cost nothing and surely we owe it to our host to maintain a decent level of decorum.

I've seen 5 year old children that don't bicker as much as some recent posts........

Would this advice apply to safari operators who try to scare clients away from countries in which they don't operate?

Just wondering about that...

A prime example of the point I'm making. Ridiculous personal attacks are unjustified here.

The reason I don't offer Zim hunting is because I don't consider it safe enough to risk the reputation of myself & my company by sending clients there. I've worked bloody hard to build our good reputation and I'm not prepared to run the risk of losing it by sending a client somewhere I don't consider 110% safe.

I have a very good Zim licenced PH I could use and only this week was offered a (bull) Elephant hunt that I could sell for US$5000 all in - and make a modest profit - but I'm not prepared to send our clients in there.......simple as that!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
A prime example of the point I'm making. Ridiculous personal attacks are unjustified here.

The reason I don't offer Zim hunting is because I don't consider it safe enough to risk the reputation of myself & my company by sending clients there. I've worked bloody hard to build our good reputation and I'm not prepared to run the risk of losing it by sending a client somewhere I don't consider 110% safe.

I have a very good Zim licenced PH I could use and only this week was offered a (bull) Elephant hunt that I could sell for US$5000 all in - and make a modest profit - but I'm not prepared to send our clients in there.......simple as that!

Aaah, but you send your clients to RSA which has the highest violent crime rate of sub-Saharan Africa, all the while trying to scare potential clients off from Zim where it is rare for a client to have a problem. But the crime rate is not the only thing that clients need to beware of in RSA, is it?

If you think these comments are unjustified, consider the content of some of posts you have made over the past couple of years.

I agree with 500grains.

Zim is probably just as safe as anywhere else in Afirca for a safari, and personally I have always felt safe in Zim which is not the case when i have been in SA.

I don't know Steve, but I agree with the premise of his post.

The response(s) to his post are exactly what he is talking about

Hold on a minute 500 g - It's not that I don't like Zimbabwe - I love it. Nor is it that I consider it particularly dangerous with respect to crime. The reason we don't send clients there is that (IMO) there's just too much that can go wrong there due to the overall situation - politally and otherwise. Sure most hunters have a great hunt there but one day the wheels are gonna fall off and whoever happens to be there at the time is going to be in a very uncomfortable position. If you don't believe me here's a few things that have been occurring there recently. Some gleaned from this and other forums and some from elsewhere........With this kind of thing happening there do you really think I should send my clients there - I think not, which is why we'll be avoiding the place for the foreseeable future!
Wednesday, June 1, 2005

Sole Survivor?
Zimbabwe: It just seemed like things couldn't get any worse under the rule of Robert Mugabe. They could, they did and they will — as long as he retains control.

When we last visited "The Shame Of Africa" last summer, we noted that Mugabe had taken the nation to a new low in his quest for absolute power. This he defines as "when a man is starving and you are the only one able to give him food."

The description is apt, since a large part of the population was — and still is — going hungry.

At the same time, of course, Zimbabwe's economy has collapsed, unemployment hovers near 70%, poverty is everywhere and the value of the nation's currency has melted away.

Today, food riots, gas lines and government repression are common as Zimbabwe is ever closer to ruin. Welcome to Mugabe's Marxist meltdown.

The trouble — a term that doesn't do the situation justice — began when Mugabe seized private farms and turned them over to squatters and political cronies who had neither the incentives nor the skills to keep them running at prior levels.

The country has since gone from breadbasket to basket case: Much of it is dependent on international food relief. The New York Times reports that Zimbabwe needs roughly 1.6 million tons of grain a year.

Yet Mugabe resists the aid. Better to control a country through starvation than to feed the hungry who might become political opponents once they have enough to eat.

Mugabe's farm seizures set off a domino effect that first spilled into farm-related sectors of the economy but now is felt across a broad front.

Mugabe's answer to the damage he did was to force the dispossessed poor to the capital of Harare, where they voted against him in March, to destroy their shacks. If six miles of burning shacks wasn't enough of a message, some were beaten by police.

This, after Mugabe terrorized "black-market" traders by razing their stalls, trashing their wares and arresting thousands. An official demonized the traders for being "greedy" and "cheap." But how else could they act in the face of such economic failure?

Like the slaughters in Darfur and Rwanda, much of the world treats Zimbabwe like a reality show starring Mugabe as host: compelling TV, but be careful of emotional attachment.

This show must end. The West must force out Mugabe before the tragic conditions he has created make it totally unwatchable.

Investor's Business Daily



Posted 31 May 2005 23:19 31 May 2005 23:19
Mail & Guardian (Johannesburg)

May 26, 2005

Godwin Gandu
Harare

President Robert Mugabe and his wife Grace will splash out close to R3-million [about $450,000 US Dollars] on a 10th wedding anniversary party at their rural home in Kutama, about 60km west of Harare.

Several Southern African regional leaders are expected to attend, including best man at the wedding, former Mozambican president Joachim Chissano. Namibian President Hifikepunye Pohamba, his Tanzanian counterpart Benjamin Mkapa and former South African president Nelson Mandela and his wife Graca Machel have also cracked invites. "It's not expected that President Thabo Mbeki will come, but an ANC delegation will," a government source told the Mail & Guardian.

"A lot of money will be needed for the flights, hotel accommodation, food and hosting the event at Kutama. But the costs could be cut down by many companies donating in cash and kind, with farmers supplying beef and vegetables as usual and national breweries providing beer.

"It will be classy, royal-like," the source said, "Mugabe will be driven from a church service in an open Rolls Royce with horses in front. That's how they want it."

The party will be preceded by a family trip to the Middle East.

Grace is 40 years younger than her 81-year-old husband, with whom she has three children.

Plans for the lavish celebration in August were revealed to the M&G this week as evidence emerged that Zimbabwe was sliding further into an economic recession. Emotions are running high in Harare, with commuters having to trudge 10km to and from work in chilly conditions as a fuel crisis grips the country.

In a move seen as provocative, riot police this week demolished business kiosks and market-place stalls of informal traders in Harare and surrounding townships. By June 20, the police said, "all unauthorised buildings and market places would have been destroyed".

Residents watched in anguish as police swooped on and arrested more than 9 500 people as part of Operation Murambatsvina, which began last week. The police said the vendors were operating at undesignated points, violating the city's by-laws.

In Glen Norah township, police on Wednesday razed tuck-shops to the ground and burned carpenters' stalls alongside roads leading into the opposition stronghold.

Glen Norah residents, who have declared the constituency a no-go area for the police, reacted by barricading roads leading into the township.

"This is shocking, it has never happened before. The government is trying to get an excuse for declaring a state of emergency because they realise the economy is receding into a disaster," said Priscilla Misihairambwi-Mushonga, the Movement for Democratic Change MP for the area.

"They want people to riot, and they will get that. The whole thing is political. Mugabe is simply saying you voted for the opposition and this is what you'll get."

Constitutional reform pressure group chairperson Dr Lovemore Madhuku slammed the crackdown as "a recipe for an uprising" but felt that "Zimbabweans in general have no disposition towards a spontaneous revolt". He cautioned however that: "These are purely bread and butter issues and you have the police demolishing tuck shops and market stalls, it's being insensitive."

Many companies have shut down because of the economic slump and unemployment levels have risen to about 80%.

A fuel crisis that has caused the public transportation system to grind to a halt means people are starting work four hours late and getting home at about midnight.

The urban folk are becoming increasingly restless. "We are having a situation in which residents are now attacking the police," said Misihairambwi-Mushonga. "The situation is degenerating into total chaos and people are angry."

But the blissfully happy Mugabe couple is going ahead with the party plans. Mugabe, though not showing any signs of frailty and fatigue, has, on the advice of his doctors, in the past three weeks, been cutting down on public engagements.

A family relative, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the M&G that: "Gushungo's [Mugabe clan name] bones are like teak. They have a reputation for living long. H


http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/zwe-summary-eng


The government continued its campaign of repression aimed at eliminating political opposition and silencing dissent. Hundreds of people were arrested for holding meetings or participating in peaceful protests. The police, army, supporters of the ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF) and youth militia were implicated in numerous human rights violations, including torture, assault and arbitrary detention. Despite compelling evidence that Zimbabwe would continue to experience food shortages, the government terminated most international food aid programmes. In December parliament passed legislation banning foreign human rights groups from operating in Zimbabwe and imposing restrictions on local human rights organizations, including prohibiting them from receiving foreign funding for human rights work.

Background

After a protracted court case the leader of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), Morgan Tsvangirai, was acquitted of treason on 15 October. In November the state filed an application with the Supreme Court for leave to appeal against the acquittal. The matter had not been heard by the end of the year. Morgan Tsvangirai also faced a second charge of treason in connection with mass protests during 2003. This case, repeatedly postponed, was still pending at the end of the year.

In August the MDC, the main opposition party, announced that it was suspending its participation in elections until the government put in place reforms that would enable free and fair elections to take place. At the end of the year it remained unclear whether the MDC would contest parliamentary elections scheduled for March 2005.

On 9 December parliament passed the Electoral Commission Act, ostensibly as part of efforts to bring Zimbabwe into line with the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Principles and Guidelines Governing Democratic Elections. However, human rights and democracy groups criticized some aspects of this legislation, which violate the rights to freedom of association and information.

In February President Mugabe used the Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures) Act to amend the Criminal Procedures and Evidence Act (CPEA). The amendments allowed for pre-trial detention of up to 28 days of people suspected of certain economic crimes or certain offences under the repressive Public Order and Security Act (POSA).

In July the African Union Assembly was due to consider the annual activity report of the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights on the human rights situation in Zimbabwe, which contained in an appendix the findings and recommendations of a fact-finding mission to Zimbabwe in 2002. However, the Zimbabwean authorities argued that they had not been given a proper opportunity to respond to the report of the African Commission’s fact-finding mission, and consideration of the annual activity report was postponed. By the end of 2004, neither the annual activity report, nor the full report of the 2002 fact-finding mission – which was known to be critical of the human rights situation in Zimbabwe – had been officially published.

In October a senior delegation of the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) visiting Zimbabwe on a fact-finding mission was summarily deported from the country. The government of Zimbabwe claimed that the visit was of a political nature, apparently because COSATU intended to meet civic and human rights organizations that were critical of the government.

Human rights defenders

Human rights organizations came under renewed attack by the authorities. Following widespread publicity given to the unpublished African Commission report (see above), local human rights organizations were subjected to a campaign of vilification through the state-controlled media. Several non-governmental organizations (NGOs) were accused of “writing†the report or supplying false information to the Commissioners.

On 9 December parliament passed legislation requiring all NGOs to register with a government-appointed NGO Council. The Council was given sweeping powers to interfere with the operations of NGOs, including refusing registration and thereby shutting down NGOs. The legislation singles out organizations that work on “governanceâ€, defined as including human rights, banning foreign governance and human rights groups from operating in Zimbabwe and prohibiting national organizations involved in governance and human rights work from receiving foreign funding.

Freedom of association and assembly

The POSA continued to be used selectively to prevent the political opposition and civil society groups from meeting or engaging in peaceful protest. Hundreds of civil society activists and members of the MDC were arrested under POSA. Many of those arrested were subjected to ill-treatment and intimidation while in police custody.
• On 28 September, 48 members of the women’s organization, Women of Zimbabwe Arise (WOZA), as well as four men working with them, were detained by police, citing POSA, as they neared the end of a 440km sponsored walk from Bulawayo to Harare. They were reportedly intimidated and threatened by police officers. Another woman activist, Siphiwe Maseko, was arbitrarily detained the same day when she attempted to deliver food to those in custody; she was released the following day without charge. The rest of the group was held in custody until 1 October, when a magistrate ruled that they had no case to answer. All were released.

On 29 September, WOZA activists who had not been arrested the previous day finished the walk, gathered at Africa Unity Square in Harare and held a brief prayer service for those in detention. As they began to disperse nine women were arrested by police, who reportedly claimed that the women had contravened Section 19 of POSA by “praying in publicâ€. Section 19 of POSA refers to “gatherings conducing to riot, disorder or intoleranceâ€. The activists were detained at Harare Central Police Station where three of the women were allegedly assaulted by a plain-clothes officer during interrogation. All were released on bail on 1 October. When they appeared in court on 13 October to answer the charges, no charge sheets were presented and all were released. No further action had been taken by the end of the year.

Repression of independent media

The authorities continued to use the repressive Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act (AIPPA) to harass, intimidate and silence journalists and newspapers viewed as critical of the government. In November parliament amended the AIPPA, making the practice of journalism without accreditation a criminal offence punishable by up to two years in prison.
• On 9 January the High Court ordered the Zimbabwe Republic Police to vacate the offices of Zimbabwe’s only independent daily newspaper, the Daily News. The police had occupied the newspaper’s offices in December 2003, just hours after a court had ordered that the paper – closed down in September 2003 – be allowed to resume publication. The police initially failed to obey the 9 January court order, and the Daily News was only able to recommence publication on 21 January. On 22 January the Media Information Commission (MIC) and the Minister for Information and Publicity initiated court proceedings to once again prevent the Daily News from publishing. The MIC had consistently refused to register the Daily News, despite a court order compelling it to do so.

On 5 February the Supreme Court ruled that the AIPPA was constitutional. The decision was in response to a constitutional challenge by the Independent Journalists Association of Zimbabwe to sections of the AIPPA. This ruling effectively forced the Daily News to cease publication as it meant that publishers and journalists faced arrest. The Daily News remained unable to publish at the end of the year.
• On 10 January, Iden Wetherall, Vincent Kahiya and Dumisani Muleya, editor, news editor and chief reporter respectively of the weekly Zimbabwe Independent newspaper, were arrested and charged with criminal defamation in connection with a story printed in the newspaper on 9 January which alleged that President Mugabe had commandeered an Air Zimbabwe plane for personal travel. A fourth journalist, Itai Dzamara, was arrested on 14 January and also charged with criminal defamation. All were released on bail. The case was still pending at the end of the year.

Excessive use of force

The Zimbabwe Republic Police continued to use excessive force when policing public gatherings. Police also used excessive force during forced evictions which took place in the second half of the year.
• On 2 September police, war veterans and youth militia attempted to forcibly evict some 10,000 residents from Porta Farm, an informal settlement on the outskirts of Harare. The police were acting in defiance of a court order prohibiting the eviction. The police reportedly fired tear gas directly into the homes of some of the Porta Farm residents. One man, who had been ill with tuberculosis, died shortly after being exposed to the tear gas. At least 10 other people died during the following three weeks. Residents claimed that all those who died, several of whom were reported to have had pre-existing illnesses, had been exposed to the tear gas. Five of the dead were children under the age of one. Hundreds of other residents complained of chest and stomach pains and other ill effects resulting from their exposure to tear gas.

Torture and ill-treatment

State security agents, including members of the Zimbabwe Republic Police and the Central Intelligence Organization (CIO), were implicated in numerous cases of torture, assault and ill-treatment. Victims were primarily members of the political opposition and those perceived as critical of the government. Throughout the year ZANU-PF supporters and youth militia were also implicated in the assault, abduction and intimidation of those believed to be members or supporters of the political opposition. Both state and non-state perpetrators appeared to operate with impunity.
• On 14 October, three unidentified men assaulted Philani Zamchiya, President of the Zimbabwe National Students Union (ZINASU), near the union headquarters in Harare. Several police officers then reportedly arrived on the scene and Philani Zamchiya was pushed into a vehicle. He reported that the police officers then assaulted him. He managed to escape by jumping from the moving vehicle and subsequently spent several days in hospital. While Philani Zamchiya was in hospital, men believed to be state security agents reportedly entered his hospital room and demanded information on ZINASU activities, although he was unable to speak as a result of his injuries. No one had been arrested in connection with the assault on Philani Zamchiya by the end of the year.
• On 22 April police in Harare brutally assaulted Tinashe Chimedza, a youth activist and former ZINASU president. He had been due to speak at an education forum in Harare. Police detained him at the venue and kicked, punched and beat him with batons. He was hospitalized for several days as a result of his injuries.
• Lovemore Madhuku, Chairman of the National Constitutional Assembly (NCA), was severely beaten on 4 February when police officers broke up a peaceful NCA demonstration outside parliament. He was taken from the site of the demonstration to another location in Harare where police punched him and beat him with batons before dumping him on the outskirts of the city centre. Lovemore Madhuku was hospitalized for several days. No one had been arrested in connection with the assault by the end of the year.

Workers and their families on the Charleswood Estate farm of the opposition member of parliament (MP) for Chimanimani, Roy Bennett, were systematically targeted in a series of violent attacks by state agents and ruling party supporters. The farm workers had been repeatedly targeted since 2000 because they worked for an MDC MP. During the year dozens of farm workers were beaten, harassed and intimidated. In one incident children as young as eight were reportedly assaulted by soldiers. At least two women were raped, one allegedly by a police officer. One man was fatally shot (see below). On 9 April state agents, including the police and army, took possession of Roy Bennett’s farm in defiance of court orders which prohibited acquisition of the farm by the state, and which directed the state and its functionaries to vacate the farm and cease interference with its operations and staff.
• On 8 February a group of some 20 ZANU-PF supporters attacked the home of Amos Makaza, a security officer at Charleswood Estate. When other farm workers came to Amos Makaza’s assistance the assailants left, but later returned with members of the Zimbabwe Army. The soldiers opened fire on some of the farm workers. Shemi Chimbarara was shot and died instantly. Another farm worker, John Kaitano, was shot in the leg. A soldier was reported to have been arrested in connection with the shooting of Shemi Chimbarara.

Elections

By-elections held during the year were marked by politically motivated violence and intimidation. Scores of MDC supporters were assaulted and intimidated during a by-election in Zengeza in March. The main perpetrators of this violence were reported to be ZANU-PF supporters. MDC supporters were also the targets of violence before, during and after by-elections in Gutu-North in February and in Lupane in May.
• On 28 March, MDC activist Francis Chinozvina was shot dead when a group of ZANU-PF supporters reportedly attacked the house of the MDC candidate for Zengeza, James Makore. Another MDC activist was shot in the leg. Eyewitnesses reportedly implicated a senior ruling party figure in the shooting. However, on 6 April police arrested a different man in connection with the killing.

Administration of justice

On 28 October, in a parliamentary procedure which failed to meet many of the requirements for a fair trial, MDC MP Roy Bennett was sentenced to a 15-month jail term with hard labour for pushing the Minister for Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs to the ground during a heated exchange in parliament on 18 May. Roy Bennett was denied the right of appeal and placed in Harare Central Prison. On 26 November he was transferred to Mutoko prison in north-east Zimbabwe, which restricted the ability of his family and lawyers to visit him. Initial attempts by lawyers acting for Roy Bennett to bring the matter before the courts were blocked by the Speaker of Parliament. However, on 9 November an urgent application was heard in the High Court of Zimbabwe. The judgement had not been delivered by the end of the year and Roy Bennett remained in prison.

Violations of the right to food

In May the government announced that Zimbabwe had had a “bumper†harvest and no longer needed international food aid. By June most food aid distribution had stopped although some programmes aimed at very vulnerable populations continued. The government’s claims about the size of the 2004 harvest were widely discredited, and by the end of the year there was mounting evidence of hunger and food shortages in many areas of Zimbabwe. There were also reports that ZANU-PF party cards were being demanded in some areas before people could access state-controlled grain. The government-controlled Grain Marketing Board (GMB) has an almost total monopoly on the import of and trade in maize, the staple food of most Zimbabweans, and a history of discriminatory allocation of the food it controls.

In November the government agreed to allow the World Food Programme to undertake a one-off distribution of food aid to 1.6 million people during December.

Forced evictions

In the last four months of 2004 the police and army forcibly evicted thousands of people from farms where they had settled between 2000 and 2002. Homes and belongings were destroyed and families left destitute. Human rights lawyers subsequently obtained court orders which allowed people to return to the farms, but some families reported that government officials and state agents continued to harass them and threaten them with removal.



BY GANYANA


Posted 13 June 2005 00:02 13 June 2005 00:02
Just to be fair to Charlie Davey - and He is no mate of mine- he didn't select Shamu as a partner- he inherited him.

In 1994 Parks issued an (illegal) decree that for all new leases, the company would have to be at least 49% black owned. The Chirisa safari area was comming up for re-auction and a consortium or Ingwe, Swainsons and National were putting together a holding company to make a bid for it and get it of Chirelli who had it. Swainsons sugested their local MP - one Charles Ndlovu aka Webster Shamu as an honest black partner who would do his bit on getting parks to fulfil their end of the bargin, and yet not get greedy and need a car crash 3 years down the road... So Charles Ndlovu, MP for the small constiuency of Chigut it was.

He proved an honest partner in Famba safaris but parks was begining to disintergrate and the poaching levels in Charisa were getting out of hand- and it was becoming politically unaceptable for anybody to do anything. Bill Bedford of Ingwe wanted out of a parks controlled area. Charlie Davey was growing his empire and though that he could persuade parks to deal with the poaching, so one morning in '99 Charles Ndlouvu woke up to find his new partner in Famba safaris was Charlie Davey- they only told him after the fact!

Only in 2000 did Charles Ndlovu revert to using his real name -Webster Shamu and rise rapidly up the political ranks as one of the old league Nationalists (he joined up in the late 1940's)

Also, The MDC's cry against the one piece of land Davey still owns is a little sour grapes. Davey bought it off Eddie Cross-The MDC shadow finace minister- in 2000 after the land invasions started when Cross was sure all land would be nationalised. Davey lost all of his farm land but government has honoured his purchace from Cross because of the German Shareholding. Land with any componant of American, German, Italian or Spanish shareholding has not been touched. Davey played it carefully and got a partner who's government had a property agreement with the Zim Gov.

I could name 20 "reputable" hunting companies here who have some very unsavoury partners- not only old time nationalists but men wanted internationally for genocide.

I have often made posts in the past critising some operators for dealing with the devil...But will refrain from doing so again- do a search.


More razings -- Zimbabwe extends demolitions to rural areas
Friday, June 17, 2005 Posted: 10:36 AM EDT (1436 GMT)


Tendai Ndoro, left and his brother Kuda sit outside their burned hut in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, on June 15.
Image:

HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) -- Zimbabwe has extended the destruction of informal homes and businesses from the cities to rural areas, police told state radio Friday.
The government calls the campaign a cleanup effort, but critics at home and abroad say it is a violation of human rights and inspired by politics.
Police spokesman Austin Chikwavara said his force has started tearing down shacks and kiosks found at major crossroads in Chirumanzu, Umvuma and Lalapanzi in the Zimbabwe Midlands, between 200 kilometers (124 miles) and 300 kilometers (186 miles) south of the capital, Harare.
Another police spokesman, who was not identified, told the radio station that police also are demolishing homes built without permission on some of the thousands of farms seized from their white owners for redistribution to black Zimbabweans.
However, Security Minister Didymus Mutasa maintained in the same broadcast that the monthlong campaign was aimed only at cleaning out city streets and would not affect the government's rural strongholds.
The government's Operation Murambatsvina, or Drive Out Trash, has already left more than 250,000 city dwellers homeless in the winter cold. Police also have arrested more than 30,000 vendors, accusing them of dealing in black market goods and attempting to sabotage Zimbabwe's failing economy.
President Robert Mugabe's dismissed propaganda chief condemned the evictions Thursday as "barbaric."
Jonathan Moyo, addressing his first public meeting in the capital since he was fired in January, said the blitz was linked to a power struggle within the ruling party over who would succeed the 81-year-old Mugabe.
"It seems to be a directionless activity of some mischievous group which imagines it can profit by this in some mysterious way and position itself ahead of the pack in the succession game," he told the gathering at a Harare hotel Thursday.
Moyo, who spent five years as information minister, was fired for opposing Mugabe's choice of Joyce Mujuru as a vice president. Moyo backed parliamentary Speaker Emmerson Mnangagwa, who represents a younger generation of ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front members.
Opposition leaders say the eviction campaign is aimed at driving their supporters among the urban poor into rural areas, where they can be more easily controlled.
"The government wants to depopulate urban areas ahead of the 2008 elections and re-create a rural peasantry in which voters are brought under the control of local chiefs and Mugabe's militias," Sydney Masamvu, an analyst from the International Crisis Group think tank, said in a statement Friday.
As the unpopular drive spreads, Zimbabwe officials sought to play down superstitious fears that the ancestors have been angered.
Residents of a small mining town told a government newspaper that the presence of a baboon in a destroyed shack was a sign of the ancestors' displeasure. The animal leaped out of the shack as it was being pulled down and refused to leave the site in Shurugwi's Mukusha township, 450 kilometers (280 miles) south of Harare, The Herald reported.
Many Zimbabweans believe the spirits of ancestors inhabit wild animals and invade human habitations to take revenge when offended.
"We are not really concerned because a baboon can never harm a person," police spokesman Patrick Chademana told The Herald.

Weekly Telegraph 8-14 June 2005 (Based on World Bank Data 2003)
Corruption Index out of 145.
Sierra Leone = 114 of 145
South Africa = 44 of 145
Zimbabwe = 114 of 145
Botswana = 31 of 145
Tanzania = 90 of 145
Nigeria 144 of 145
Aids percentage
Sierra Leone = n/a
South Africa = 21.5%
Zimbabwe = 24.6
Botswana 37.3%
Tanzania 8.6%
Nigeria 5.4%




Shebeens selling cough syrup
19/06/2005 13:04 - (SA)



Harare - Desperate for beer, Zimbabweans are turning to cough medicine as a substitute for alcohol, the state-run Sunday Mail reported.

A local cough medicine that is readily available in Harare's pharmacies is being used in shebeens and nightclubs in the capital, the paper reported.

It said the medicine is often drunk diluted in soft drinks.

Beer has joined a growing list of goods now in short supply in Zimbabwe. Manufacturers blame the shortage of foreign currency for their inability to import essential ingredients.

The newspaper said that most shebeen owners were now selling the cough mixture which is proving to be popular with many.

But a medical expert warned of the danger of addiction and tooth decay.

Along with beer, sugar, maize meal, cooking oil, bread, milk and fuel are all in short supply. Many Zimbabweans spend hours queuing for scarce commodities where they are available.

The government of President Robert Mugabe says widespread corruption is partly to blame for the foreign currency shortages. - Sapa-dpa

The point of this thread wasn't to discuss the pro's & con's of hunting Zimbabwe or anywhere else - it was to suggest we all refrain from personal insults etc. We might not all agree, which is healthy & normal but there's no need to insult each other or cast unwarranted aspersions on people's personal or business integrity is there?..........

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:


Would this advice apply to safari operators who try to scare clients away from countries in which they don't operate?

Just wondering about that...

Thanks, 500grains, for providing everyone with a perfect example of Steve's point.


Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

If you think these comments are unjustified, consider the content of some of posts you have made over the past couple of years.

Are you saying "bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour"?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:


By the way, (almostacowboy) I love your signature and will steal the line to get a laugh out of my clients this season!!!!!! - hope you don't mind

Help yourself! I'm sure Groucho stole it, too!

Well said Steve, and I agree with you 100%, however when a trol emerges in order to disrupt, then the dragon needs slaying...

Steve,

If you don't want to send clients to Zim, that is absolutely fine. You can and should run your company any way you see fit.

But it is absolutely not necessary to trash Zimbabwe on the internet with regularity. The fact of the matter is that most hunters who go to Zim has a fabulous experience. And when we hear stories of safaris gone bad, rip off PH's, etc., those stories frequently come from RSA, and seldom from Zim.

500grains,

So your saying the Steve should not be allowed to give his opinions on these forums just because you don't happen to agree with them?

The whole point of these forums is to exchange information and opinions on hunting not to stifle it with petty censorship.

If you disagree with what Steve says about Zimbabwe, fine, just respond with your opinion on the subject and let the members arrive at their own conclusions...

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:


I have a very good Zim licenced PH I could use and only this week was offered a (bull) Elephant hunt that I could sell for US$5000

WOW!!

...............And in September we all start a new school year in the 5th grade!

Come on guys get a life here! We don't need this crap, it accomplishes nothing, and only serves to make enemies.

Pete E,

Actually, the criticisms Steve has had for Zim are even more true in RSA where he books hunts. So his fairly consistent rants against Zimbabwe have the look of a negative advertising campaign against the competition. Which is why I call him on it whenever I see this type of hypocritical behavior in his posts.

_____

almostacowboy,

Isn't your post another example of what Steve is talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
OK, so maybe I'm not always the sharpest tool in the box, but can someone please tell me what's happening on this forum?........there was a time not too long ago that we had sensible discussions about Africa & African hunting and surely that's what this forum should be for.......but now we seem to have a lot of new members - some of whom are getting into the realms of fantasy & obvious BS and half the posts are nothing more than personal attacks on each others integrity and personalities etc.

C'mon guys, courtesy & honesty cost nothing and surely we owe it to our host to maintain a decent level of decorum.

I've seen 5 year old children that don't bicker as much as some recent posts........

Steve

There are many problems really ///

1) Public forum where some of the posters are hidden individuals that only have a handle and no obvious place of residence I call them homeless people and they can easily at times take pot shots at others and camoflage themselves much better than those whom are more open in whom they are what they do and where they live /// the problem can be solved but the AR owner/operators prefer it to be a real world warts and all OPEN forum .... so you have to live with it

2) Some of us ( me included ) sometimes BANG our heads on the bedpost or even the floor when we get out of bed in the morning then we are in a mood to take on the world and not want to compromise


3) The exhuberance of youth, the grumpness of old age, or just a pain in the arse antagonist

4) The FULL MOON

Apart from the above AR is wonderful for diverse informative views and personalities which we (would not change the world for) as we are ALL HOOKED on AR and we can now blame Saeed for that as he has provided us the happy forum

happy hunting

Peter

Peter,

And as a psychologist, I wish I'd learned about this forum prior to publishing my thesis. There seems to be some really in-depth psychoses here...including mine!

When one casts a net,he is not always sure what he will pull in,then it is up to him how he sorts his catch. SO IT IS WITH THIS FORUM.

"When Hell is full,the dead will walk the earth."

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

almostacowboy,

Isn't your post another example of what Steve is talking about?

Well, let's look at it:
Was I rude? No.
Did I make any off-topic, vague allusions to your honesty or integrity? No.
Did I imply that your motives for the post were less than honorable? No.
Did I call you names? No.
So, I'd say "No, I don't think it is".
Now, if I continued with a rebuttal to your comparison of RSA to the current situation in Zim, or if I were to imply you had some evil ulterior motive for trying to bait Shakari, I'd say "Yes, it is! Sorry."
OBTW, you didn't answer my question: Do you think bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour?
Dave

So now that we have ALL DECIDED in abstensia it not our fault we MUST therefore HOLD SAEED in contempt of court for ALLOWING AR to be a FREE FORUM ///

Saeed we therefore now sentance you to spend the next six months away from your family hunting in Africa ... and just to ensure you DONT escape bail we will send two un-uniformed OLD GRUMPY Officers, RAY & JudgeG to keep you under surveillnace

Peter /// under a full moon downunder in the land of Rugby & sheep shaggers

quote:

I've seen 5 year old children that don't bicker as much as some recent posts........

Steve - I think this sentence is were you made your mistake. You offered up an oppertunity that was just too tempting.

When I read your inital post I thought Steve will get flame with 5 posts. O.K. so it was 7, it's summer here, the other childrem must be swimming.

I admire people that choose ethics over the almighty $$$.

quote:

I dont want to know whats better 308 or 30-06,
I dont need to know how much you think 7mm magnums are the best,
I dont need to know how you made a brass tumbler out of a tin can some duct tape and an old motor because you too cheap to support the industry.
I am sick of hearing how .338 lapua is your favorite cartridge.

that pretty much sums up the base content of most other forums. long live this one!

One of the problems with this forum is the fact that the Moderators do their job to well!

The example discussions quoted above all have other places within the AR forums to be discussed, but the posters prefer to use the African Hunting forum to place these questions. Why here, and why not in Medium Bores or Big Bores?

Perhaps the partial answer is that this is the most popular forum of all??? Long live this forum as a place to civilly and with good manners discuss African Hunting!

As a South African who operate ONLY in South Africa I do admit that I also find to fact that some (you will know who the few individuals are that I'm referring to) seem to jump at every single opportunity to paint a blurred and poor picture of South Africa extremely irritating. But I accept it as their views, and as I know the situation here in South Africa to be bad, but not as bad as these posters make out, I tend to simply consider their opinions on other matters as not really worthy of consideration!

Have these "Badmouth South Africa Whenever You Can" posters ever thought what their favorite hunting destination would look like if all, or let's be realistic, a significant proportion of the current South African plains game first time safari hunters all flocked to "their" hunting heaven?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Aaah, but you send your clients to RSA which has the highest violent crime rate of sub-Saharan Africa, all the while trying to scare potential clients off from Zim where it is rare for a client to have a problem. But the crime rate is not the only thing that clients need to beware of in RSA, is it?

I'm just wondering if the violent crimes fo police evictions committed by the Government in Zimbabwe against the destitute, hungry and homeless and small shack traders are all entered into the crime statistics that 500grains refers to?

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
Do you think bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour?

So you think that pointing out [Steve's] bad behavior is itself an act of bad behavior. What a strange view you have.

Steve likes to slam Zimbabwe because it serves his own commercial interests. I consider the slams to be discourteous because he exaggerates and proclaims catastrophe when none has occurred. He also conceals the exact same problems which exist in RSA, but to a much worse extent in many instances. I consider that dishonest.

Yet he is calling for courtesy and honesty.

Shouldn't that hypocrisy be pointed out?

Reminder: If you do not like my posts, you are not required to read them.

first of all the intent of this thread was just to point out that it was such a shame that good manners seem to going out of the window here. Nothing more and nothing less. I didn't even mention which country was better than another....... and there was no intention of discussing the pro's & con's of African countries or anything else.

However as the subject has come up: I don't think I slam zimbabwe at all, I just tell my honest opinion. I've frequently posted that if the prospective client goes to one of the old established companies they'll have a good hunt and I've even gone as far as to recommend 2 particular operators......Roger Whittal & HHK. I don't make any money out of them but I do believe they're good people and offer a good product.

Zimbabwe is right on my doorstep, prices are dirt cheap and profit margins high (I'm offered hunts there almost on a weekly basis)and if I thought it was a safe place to send my clients I'd be a fool not to. As I said I have a top class PH (actually two) who would be delighted to work for me in his home country.......but some of the reasons I don't are posted above.

Crime rates as in robbery & murder etc don't come into it and never have. Whatever country you're in there's very little crime in the bush...........what puts me off is the overall political situation in Zimbabwe. If a dictator who is completely off his trolley and doing the things that Mugabe's doing to his own people then sooner or later there's gonna be BIG trouble. We've already seen white farmers attacked and kicked off their own land, occasionally murdered and there has been instances of hunters kicked off their hunting areas. That's without mentioning the seizure/lacy act thing - If large scale civil disturbance kicks off in Zimbabwe (and IMO it's only a matter of time) then any hunters who are there at the time will be in a VERY uncomfortable position and whether they ever get their trophies, money or rifles out will be the least of their worries........ and that's why I opt not to send MY clients into Zimbabwe.......If other hunters opt to hunt there and other companies opt to send their clients there then I wish them all well. To the best of my knowledge there are no better deals anywhere in Africa - if the clients are prepared to take the risks I've outlined above......

I've been accused of concealing the problems that occur in SA (presumably the hunting industry?) - I've no idea why and in fact it wasn't that long ago I posted (elsewhere) extensively why hunters should avoid RSA for Leopard hunts. But as the subject was raised here I'd bet that there are more examples of dodgy dealing in Zim than RSA.......I've never heard of a hunter arriving in RSA having paid for a hunt to find there's no-one there to meet him because they've done a bunk with his money - but I know of at least 2 examples of this in Zimbabwe in recent years.......although the blame for that must lie in a lack of research on the clients and agent's part.......

When someone asks advice on this forum about what African country is best for whatever, he assumes the person advising him will actually be experienced enough to give sensible advice. That means experienced not just in one African country but in many. Otherwise how can they give meaningful advice of one country over another? - I've been hunting Africa on and off (mostly on) for over 25 years and we currently operate in 5 African countries......and I live here. so although I don't consider myself an expert on anything, I do reckon I'm reasonably knowledgeable on many African subjects......Perhaps .500 g would be kind enough to tell us on what African experience of what African countries he bases his knowledge on?

Not that my opinion is worth much as I am an ex: Rhodesian resident whom was born in SA and now live in NZ so I must have crap for brains ....

For what it's worh Zim's is in a total mess politically and economically speaking and that is why a lot of the hunting is dirt cheap in most instances ( always exceptions to the rule ) and desperation laced with a bit of fraud here and there has complicated the situation SO dont say you have not been warned OF cource there are very good operators there just make sure you use them

IMHO Steve is a very experienced Africa operator and also a decent individual and if anyonw wants to take him on in a fair fight then they better have better facts than he has because I have found the information provided by Steve to be very informative and helpful in all aspects ///

I dont have any barrow to push ONLY to get the best advice possible not only for hunting clients but for my own peace of mind, I have myself got very good advice from Steve and have a lot of respect for his Africa knowledge

Peter

Guys, Terry is not with us right now, but if he were, I'm sure he'd have something profound, touching, and meaningful to say, such as:

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
Ladies and Gentlemen, The sky isn't really falling, actually things are great. Remember a few weeks ago when we were hit with several topics that became quite controversial? We had Trolls among us, we had Troll baiting, we had Members calling for new rules. Well, as I said then, things have a way of smoothing themselves out... I will admit that I occasionally become philosophical, but my whole point in making this post is to point out that AR means something to me. It should mean something to you and you should do what you can to make this site informative, friendly and helpful. Regards, Terry

PS: Where's that picture of prince whats-his-name's girlfriend when you need it!?!?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
Do you think bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour?

So you think that pointing out [Steve's] bad behavior is itself an act of bad behavior. What a strange view you have.

Steve likes to slam Zimbabwe because it serves his own commercial interests. I consider the slams to be discourteous because he exaggerates and proclaims catastrophe when none has occurred. He also conceals the exact same problems which exist in RSA, but to a much worse extent in many instances. I consider that dishonest.

Yet he is calling for courtesy and honesty.

Shouldn't that hypocrisy be pointed out?

Reminder: If you do not like my posts, you are not required to read them.

WOW! I thought that was a simple question

Let's look at your post(s):
Maybe you could point out where I said "pointing out [Steve's] bad behavior is itself an act of bad behavior"?
My question was in response to your statement "If you think these comments are unjustified, consider the content of some of posts you have made over the past couple of years", which I read (present tense) as "because you made unjustified comments, I will too".
My original question STILL remains unanswered, sir. For the third time, do you believe bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour? It remains a simple question requiring only a "yes" or "no". Or, shall I assume because of your "justification" the answer is "yes"?

Your statement: "Steve likes to slam Zimbabwe because it serves his own commercial interests."
That would imply you have some scary psychic ability to read peoples' minds over the internet - knowing what peoples' motives are. I'm willing to bet that's just your opinion.

Your statement: "I consider the slams to be discourteous because he exaggerates and proclaims catastrophe when none has occurred." What word would you use to describe the situation in Zim, if not "catastrophe"? And you said I had a strange view.
Your statement: "Shouldn't that hypocrisy be pointed out?" I certainly feel safe knowing you are the consience of the AR Forum (please note: that was sarcasm, "the lowest form of argument", but argument nontheless).

And, finally, your post: "If you do not like my posts, you are not required to read them." Why, how would I know to dislike them if I didn't read them?

Dave

If a foreign (read: non-african) hunter wished to hunt in Africa yet wanted to be politicaly correct and only deal with a country that was lily clean where would he hunt? I think a case could be made against all of them. I would and have hunted in Zim and RSA and will again. I also look forward to some day hunting in Namibia, Tanzania and Botswana when I can find hunts I can afford. The political rights and wrongs of hunting in any country is too complicated for my limited intelligence. I think that is abunduntly clear from the diffences of opinion expressed here by many very knowledgable members. For one, I appreciate all of these diverse opinions.

465H&H

Steve,

I don't know how I could be more clear, but I will try. When you slam Zim and try to scare potential clients off from Zim, it reeks of commercial bias. It's pretty easy to see the vulture circling.

Now, you started a thread asking for honesty and courtesy. But those are 2 things lacking from your posts about Zim. It is best to be sure one can live up to a standard of behavior before asking others to.

And yes, you do conceal the dirty dealings going in RSA. You even refused to acknowledge the more common scams, but in a moment of unusual candor you did post an interesting story about the frozen leopard.

As for the el cheapo hunts in Zim, I suspect you are being approached by RSA PHs who are engaged in poaching in Zim. Why would they approach you in particular?

25 years in the business? Perhaps, but that does not deal with the issue in this thread.

I will be happy to deal with you on the basis of honesty and courtesy. But you must hold yourself to that standard as well, or I might just point out any deviation.

___

almostacowboy, if you think Steve is a truthsayer, then book a hunt with him.

Maybe there is a lesson to learn: Don't badmouth any country.

Say good things that you personally know, or even have only just heard about hunting in any country. Or say nothing at all. But don't say bad things based on a single or even a few bad experiences or hearesay!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren