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America is the supporting lifeline of hunting in Africa. The USA accounts for approximately 80% (if not more) of Zambia's safari related incomes. FACT. 80% of our and community incomes are derived from the hunting of Lion and Leopard. FACT. If USFW decides to classify the African Lion as endangered and when America decides to stop supporting Africa with much needed incomes then the safari industry will implode. As in Kenya there would be an 80% decline in wildlife and associated habitats. FACT. The domino effect would be that vast areas of managed ecosystems will be denuded, and by removing these buffer zones the pressure would overlap into the remaining Parks. Lions and indeed all our flagship animals would then be considered valueless and become severely endangered. The anti hunters would have won. Or would they? Consider this. The US ban of Lion trophy imports does not stop YOU from hunting Lion. What if the American sportsman continued to protect the game, continues to support dependant communities, economies and wildlife with the continued hunting of Lion but without importing the physical trophy? Your Lion trophy would ultimately be the hunt, some fine photographs and film. More emphasis could be put into the imagery. Or do trophy rooms become entirely digital and the trophy is professionally displayed in two dimensions such as paintings, photographs or film similar to that of a glossy art gallery? Just bouncing some ideas of the top of my head chaps so bear with me here. What if taxidermists could duplicate your Lion trophy in synthetic form and down to the last detail? Or the taxidermist buys up and collects Lion mounts from deceased estates which can be artistically modified to copy your Lion? As Americans what do you suggest? If God can save America then America can surely save the Lion. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | ||
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Andrew, the jury may still be out on God saving America; someone else seems to be exercising what they consider to be delegated powers. As for hunting a lion (which I have never done) and only being able to keep the photograph, I really don't think there is a lot of potential for subsequent investment in a facsimile. As more and more of the frequent hunters go to skull or Euro mounts, instead of shoulder mounts or full mounts because of cost, export and import hassles and even trophy space at home, one might think that this is the trend. I'm not so sure about that when it comes to lion. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Andrew, try marketing outside US  Someone made a post a month ago and I think the figure was around 60% exported to the US the last 10 years and that include the "wild ones" in RSA. We have some people in Asia, Russia and Europe with some money also. We can also exchange to US currency lol. I have a "friend" that sells EXPENSIVE knives, he only sell to russians and Arabs on the shows there and his business are skyrocketing.. | |||
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Learn to speak to Chinese? The American part came after something and will be followed by something. You all have simply made a living because of who has lion/safari money, not because Americans have money. 2 cents _______________________ | |||
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Wink: If the lion gets up-listed, "no part thereof" would be importable, similar to elephant. | |||
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News flash!!! Legally taken trophy elephant are importable to the USA! Only PAC elephant and those from areas where CITIS is not available for elephant are not importable. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Quite pointless for USF&W to be a CITES signatory when it goes about doing as it pleases. Mozambique ivory ring a bell? And there you have it:...."God Save America" ! | |||
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All one needs to do is have a look at Polar bear hunt bookings from Americans after up listing....... How's that working out? | |||
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I think Russians and Chinese have rushed to fill the void created. Jim | |||
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No need for God to save America. To avoid confiscatory tax rates and gun laws we will all soon be moving to other countries. Unless we can pay trophy fees with food stamps  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Never have truer words been spoken.  What amazes me is the way John Jackson repeatedly takes them to court, repeatedly gets court orders against them that they then ignore completely. One thing it needs is for the US Judges to grow some balls & jail a few of the USF&WS head honchos until they start obeying the court orders!  | |||
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Actually, we don't need the USF&W at all! All federal lands and national parks tended by them can be turned over to and managed by the states they are in. Same with the management of off shore resources. And you can eliminate the endangered species act, let the states and other nations manage their own wildlife. All CITES related issues can be handled by U.S. customs. USF&WS is just federal government power creep... As I understand it the big problem with CITES is that countries like the US get to vote on the listing of animals (Lion, Elephant) that do not exist in the wild in their own country! Countries should only get to vote on the listing of animals that actually reside in their own nation. No country should ever be in a position to tell another what it can do with its own natural resources. . | |||
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The problem here is that there is no longer any place to run to... | |||
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And then it gets interesting. In terms of the "fight or flight" response, when there is no where to run... you fight. In terms of lions, I do not think large numbers of US hunters will pursue them if they can not bring them home. Some will, but not many. Safari is steeped in tradition and the tradition is a rug on the floor, a head on a wall, a tusk by the fireplace and a skull on the bookshelf. Digital trophy rooms? Nope. There is a reason you hear people say "I was born a hundred years too late" and their bookshelves are filled with dusty treasures....Hemingway, Roosevelt, Ruark, Bell, Sutherland. The Romantic view of safari and a trophy room has been established. There have been some changes...shoulder mounts and pedestals vs. euro mounts and neck mounts. More life sized mounts, less rugs. More artistic mounts, more habitat, less snarling..Less white leather couches and leopard print drapes...But these are minor evolutions in taxidermy and the fashion/decor of hunters rooms. The basic elements are still there as they always have been. A total re do of what are minds view of a trophy room is seems impossible to me...perhaps I am wrong. Decent reproductions of elephant, rhino, hippo and other scantily haired creatures are available and give the hunter some options. A lion mount reproduction would not do justice to the beast and would make a comic display out of a once great trophy. Nor do I believe hunters would pay the price for having an old mounted lion redone in a mock up of their lion. The costs would be higher than with a fresh skin and....it's not their lion. | |||
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I agree with Grafton. Your not wrong. The lion will go the way of the cheetah and polar bear for U.S. hunters. That kind of money will not be spent on something intangible. A picture not going to satisfy 99% of them. Over 60% of all the lions taken in African are U S hunters. This is going to hurt. Not just Africa, but myself, to the tune of up to 50K+ a year. Glad I went this year and mine just arrived at the tannery. I hope they are not the last African Lions I get to create. I have 3 right now in the studio to do for clients besides my own and makes me sad to think I may not have the opportunity much longer. | |||
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I am not sure if I will ever have enough disposable income to do a true wild trophy male lion hunt, but if I do and no part of the lion is exportable, I would still go and be satisfied with just the experience and some high quality photos. Fairgame can count me in. STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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One thing I forgot to mention about Andrews post. It would have to be a complete faux fabrication. If they re-list lions as they want to there will be no state to state commerce in lions at all. They will then, when they list them Cites II, fall under the Lacey Act. If your wishing to re-do some other lion mount in the future you need to get on e-bay and buy one before you can't have that option either. | |||
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Where do you get these statistics from Andrew? The report I saw from South Africa indicated 50% for that country. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Don't know why but I always assumed the European hunters were the main supporters 65%/35% against the American....Cool info  | |||
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Corrected to Zambia. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Good attitude and interesting to see that the hunt actually would override the trophy. Now what I am I going to do with your Lion trophy? On your behalf can it be exported and sold elsewhere? Is it deemed collectable or of value? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Thanks for all the comments especially from the taxidermists. I just cannot get my head around the fact that the American sportsman would simply give up this great sport? Tuskless and non trophy elephant hunting is very popular. And those that have shot numerous buffalo no longer take the trophy home unless it special. One must look at the savings of not exporting and mounting your Lion? Really what is the knock on effect? I very much doubt that others will be able to fill the void? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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The trophy fee of the lion would have to really come down for the "average" American client to shoot a non importable animal. I think a non-importable lion would have to come down in cost at least to the tuskless elephant price range, and it would have to be more of a tracking/stalking type hunt to sell a client into shooting one. I would certainly not pay a trophy fee for something I can't import, for my memories of the "hunt" to be that of sitting in a blind for hours on end. . | |||
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Two Zero: If the animal is not importable in your home country it is hardly anyone's concern nor fault and to expect a reduction in the price to somehow doesn't make sense when the same animal can be sold for top dollar to a hunter who is not subjected to such laws. A tuskless elephant has no trophy as such and is an animal to be culled as there are too many about and a reduction in their numbers is not a bad thing as it is debatable that their genes continue to produce tuskless offspring. If you're not prepared to pay a trophy fee for an animal you cannot import then you most likely won't get to shoot one unless you are happy to wait for a PAC lion to crop up and scrap it out with dozens of others thinking along your lines. Hunting is an industry where the consumers are not restricted to hunters coming from countries with laws unto themselves - it means the outfitters will have to market aggressively elsewhere. | |||
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The really sad part is that this has been 10 years in the making with the hand-writing on the wall for the last 1 3/4 years. And now...with days or months (depending on USF&W's mood) left until a ruling is made...we begin to seriously worry about it. And Shakari is correct...as history has shown us...a legal battle will loose in the end. USF&W answers only to the Secretary of the Interior who only answers to the president. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The same thing will happen to the lion as what is currently happening to the polar bear. With the US having a ban on importation of polar bear trophies the USFW thought this would decrease the amount killed WRONG! What has happened is a new market has emerged with rapidly increasing prices for polar bear hides at the fur auction. Tanneries and taxidermists have been paying huge monies for the hides then turning the smaller ones into rugs and the larger ones into full mounts. Load a C-CAN full and off they go to China. The US has been putting pressure on Canada to stop all exports of polar bears out of our country as seen on the news a couple of weeks ago. Is this the fate of the African lion ? It looks like it is almost a given! | |||
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The only way it will be the same as the polar bear situation is if the African countries with lions are going to change the current methodology with regards to quotas and assign the quotas to the local tribes........ who then decide if they are going to kill the quota themselves or market some of the quota through an outfitter to non-residents. Inuit hunter/trapper organizations in the various communities are given specific polar bear allocations for their areas. In the past some of their allowable harvest was used for the non-resident trophy hunts. With the loss of the US market the bear allocations are still utilized by the communities. A much smaller number are still used for non-resident sportsmen from other countries. The sale of polar bear hides to the fur market has always been a part of the return to the local communities from their polar bear harvest, just as I get money for the beaver, fisher etc. that I trap. There is nothing new about this. Price escalation for polar bear hides had not just happened because of the loss of the US trophy hunting market.......... the Asian demand is strong because of the changes that have taken place over there and would have happened regardless of the USFWS and its ill conceived position on so many things affecting others. I think you will see the operators in Africa begin to shift their focus and market the lion hunts more aggressively in Europe, Canada, etc. where hunters can still import. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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It is a shame that our US govt wants to make a decision on Lions that affect so many and yet really has nothing to do with the US govt. They need to stay out peoples business and stop trying to dictate to others. Not sure how they think they can make such decisions about an animal that comes from other countries and no exact studies or real numbers could ever be done. For me personally though I will continue to hunt Lion no matter what the decision is. The USF&W will not stop me from doing what I enjoy. Yes I like to bring the trophy home that I have worked so hard for, but it is not the real reason why I hunt. I enjoy everything else about the safari just as much and the excitement of hunting is more of a value to me than the trophy. The Lion mount is just a tangible item in a trophy room, but the hunt itself and experience is something that is forever in my mind and body. I think others need to consider why they hunt. Do you hunt for the trophy or do you hunt because it is a hunt and you enjoy the adventure of it more. | |||
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when I hunted with Peter Chipman a few years back, we encountered and could have shot several elephant in the 70+ pound size. We were as close as -15-20 feet from many. I took pictures of them instead. Could have shot them for a decent price but not importable to USA at the time. There were two hunters that did in the hopes that it would be legal import at some time. Seemed foolish. What if you saw and shot 200 lb per side animal and couldnt import it. Would you be happy??? Not me.If it is common stuff and your going for the adventure maybe I could do it that way. I love the memories that the hides and mounts bring back to me. square shooter | |||
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I have in the past considered hunts for non importable animals (didn't go for other reasons) and I'm sure I will in the future. I'd certainly rather have a choice as to weather I bring an animal home or not, but I wouldn't say it's an automatic deal breaker. It just gets a lot more difficult to talk yourself into it the more expensive the hunt becomes. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Out of the question - what tribesman is going to fork out the trophy fee which is tagged for trophy hunting?...in addition to which one needs to add all other costs which come in the form of taxes, royalties, etc. that are part and parcel of a lion hunt. ""I think you will see the operators in Africa begin to shift their focus and market the lion hunts more aggressively in Europe, Canada, etc. where hunters can still import."" More than likely..... don't forget the Russians - they don't pay in rubles either! | |||
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Another option (remote) could be a "green" hunt for lion. I'm not sure how well this proposition would be embraced but nevertheless it is an option where the animal is not maimed or killed and could reduce the trophy cost considerably. | |||
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fujotupu........ yes I agree. What I was alluding to is that the polar bear situation and the whole management picture with regards to these bears is nothing at all like the situation in Africa with lion......... it is kind of like comparing apples and oranges as far as how the allowable harvest is set and who controls the allocations. The only constant is the USFWS screwing with wildlife management in other countries and making politically based decisions that not only are detrimental to the wildlife, but harmful to the local communities of indigenous people. Green hunts might work. They generated a lot of interest with rhino for the very reasons you stated. I think the concept of hunters coming and shooting lions at the current rates, but not being able to export them is pie in the sky. This might be an option for a few, those who have very deep pockets and have already hunted lions before............. but will never be widely accepted any more than it has worked for polar bear. As soon as they could not be exported to the US, US client numbers crashed. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Gentlemen, For those with means, there is always the option of buying or leasing property in Canada, and keeping non-importable trophies there. It might work for those who live in border states. Just a thought. Cheers and Merry Christmas to all, Tim | |||
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'The only constant is the USFWS screwing with wildlife management in other countries and making politically based decisions that not only are detrimental to the wildlife, but harmful to the local communities of indigenous people.' Amen  ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Andrew, I wish I could say it would not have made a difference whether I could have imported the Lion we hunted or not but I would be lying. As Brett posted, I would consider hunting an animal I could not import but would most likely choose a cheaper option for the adventure. In other words I would be Lion hunting in Burkina Faso or Benin and probably not Zambia. Sorry my friend. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Andrew, I think since I've taken a couple of lions I could hunt another and not be upset about not being able to import the trophy. We'd just all have to agree to have a great photo session before all the celebratory Mosi, Captain Morgans, JD etc. Without doubt the hunt itself is what lion hunitng is all about. When that big bastard comes in, stops and looks right at you in the blind............the hair is standing up on my neck just writing about it. It is a wonderful and unique experience. having said the above though I just can't envision a guy that knows he'll only take one lion paying full price knowing that he won't be able to import his trophy. If people did not have alot invested in possessing the trophies I think we'd see far more Americans hunting elephant in Mozambique where the ivory is huge but at this point not importable to the US. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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In my opinion the adventure, the hunt, the journey and the people you meet along the way are the reason for leaving home in the first place not the trophies. Having said that I keep all the trophies from my past hunts, spend the money to have them send half way around the world, send them to the taxidermist to be made up and have them displayed but the collection of trophies is not the main reason why I hunt. If I couldn’t keep the trophies it wouldn’t stop me from hunting. I haven’t hunted Lion yet but when I decide to, the keeping of the trophy or not would not be the deciding factor in whether I go or not - the memories and the photographs will always mean more to me than a rug, shoulder mount or full animal mount. | |||
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I killed my first--and maybe last--lion in 2011. I had heard the murmurs that lion hunting might become illegal, just as tiger hunting has in my lifetime, and wanted to go while I could. I would not have gone if I couldn't import the trophy into the US. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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The African outfitters are naturally not under any obligation to cater to Americans who cannot import a trophy lion.(I assumed that went without saying). Can they keep up the current price level with a potential sudden drop in demand by shifting their focus to take up the slack by clients in Europe/Russia? More power to them if they do... My comments I think reflect what it would take for the "average" american hunter to shoot something he can't import. But in reality I think it is more likely that prices wont change,(when have trophy fees ever gone down?) and the overwhelming majority of American clients would just stop hunting lions. . | |||
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