Groenewald bail change

19 April 2011, 15:45

500nitro

Poaching suspect: Court lowers bail
2011-04-19 10:31

Musina - The Musina Magistrate's Court in Limpopo has lowered the amount of the bail granted to rhino poaching accused Dawie Groenewald from R1 million to R100 000, Beeld newspaper reported on Tuesday.

Groenewald, a game farmer, posted bail in September. He brought an application on Monday to lower the bail amount.

His lawyer, Thomas Grobler, told Beeld that the court lowered his bail to R100 000.

Groenewald, 42, who owns the farm, Prachtig, outside Musina, was arrested last year with several other people, including his wife and two veterinarians, on charges related to rhino poaching.

The group was expected to appear in court again on September 30.

- SAPA

19 April 2011, 20:59

Alan Bunn

Does lowering of the bail indicate the court does not consider rhino poaching to be a serious crime?

Cheers,

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20 April 2011, 06:12

Andrew McLaren

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Bunn:
Does lowering of the bail indicate the court does not consider rhino poaching to be a serious crime?

I'm not a legal guy, but by my understanding bail is set in an attempt to ensure that the accused does in fact appear in court on the trail date. In deciding on the amount the court considers essentially the "escape risk", which, of course, is higher with more serious crimes where the penalties are likely to be higher.

The court that now lowered the bail from R 1 000 000 to R 100 000 probably also considered the R 900 000 released would be more profitably distributed amongst the legal profession as bribes and favours by Groenewald in preparation for his actual trail?

I, for one, have not found Groenewald guilty yet, but the press reports certaily shows a lot of smoke! There 'must' be a fire?

Wait and see how this pans out.

Andrew McLaren

20 April 2011, 14:25

Mike Smith

20 April 2011, 16:36

Ganyana

Why hire a lawyer when you can buy a judge?

20 April 2011, 18:02

Wink

I don't mean to be impertinent, but that is how you select your lawyer.

20 April 2011, 23:00

adqueen

The latest that I heard was not only was his bail money lowered, but they courts also said there will be no poaching charges.

It is possible that they've got the wrong guy. If everything is as corrupt as you paint it to be, maybe the corruption is on the other side.

20 April 2011, 23:17

JBrown

quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Why hire a lawyer when you can buy a judge?

Jason

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20 April 2011, 23:54

RCG

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
The latest that I heard was not only was his bail money lowered, but they courts also said there will be no poaching charges.

It is possible that they've got the wrong guy. If everything is as corrupt as you paint it to be, maybe the corruption is on the other side.

Welcome back "Adqueen"! We all know where you stand and who you support. What took you so long to comment on the various threads concerning your friends OOA?

21 April 2011, 00:00

donner

you gotta be kidding!!that man should be sentesed to min 20 years!!just one thing to say let that gang burn in jail for many years!

21 April 2011, 00:05

adqueen

RCG...I just knew that you missed me!
I have been quietly observing all of your commentary. I'm old enough and wise enough to know that there are always two sides to every story and nothing is as black and white as it may seem. Most of the threads about this whole incident are based on other blogs and not actual reporting, which slants the views right off the bat.
I also know that my friends are OAAS are NOT poachers.

21 April 2011, 00:09

JudgeG

Or convicted in Federal Court, either.

21 April 2011, 00:15

Andrew McLaren

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
The latest that I heard was not only was his bail money lowered, but they courts also said there will be no poaching charges.

It is possible that they've got the wrong guy. If everything is as corrupt as you paint it to be, maybe the corruption is on the other side.

I'm not a legal trained person at all. But my understandingis that the "courts" do not decied on what charges to prosequte on, but the prosecuting authority doies that! The courts only acts as a finder of the truth!

You have seen that I said that I, for one, have not yet found Groenewald guilty??????

If your insinuation of corrupt as you paint it was meant for me, I stand by my view that, with very few exceptions [my own brother being one of these few], the whole of the South African central and provincial government and civil service, municipal service, postal service, SABC, and..., and...., and.... is corrupt from top to bottom. Yes, the relevant Nature Conservation authorities pressing the charges against Groenewald and his co-accused may very well be corrupt and may be pressing charges just to favor a family member or friend who will benifit by Groenewald's demise. For a good statement of my view of our governments total lack of competency please read Scriptus' signature!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

21 April 2011, 00:16

RCG

Judge G:

IIRC according "adqueen", they were innocent but plead guilty in Federal court to get it over with. Sound about right, "adqueen"?

21 April 2011, 00:26

Andrew McLaren

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
The latest that I heard was not only was his bail money lowered, but they courts also said there will be no poaching charges.

It is possible that they've got the wrong guy. If everything is as corrupt as you paint it to be, maybe the corruption is on the other side.

I'm not a legaly trained person at all. But my understanding is that the "courts" do not decide on what charges to prosequte on, but the prosecuting authority does that! The courts only acts as a finder of the truth!

You have seen that I said that I, for one, have not yet found Groenewald guilty?????? But there is a lot of smoke according to the local press!

If your insinuation of 'as corrupt as you paint it' was meant for me, I stand by my view that, with very few exceptions [my own brother being one of these few], the whole of the South African central and provincial government from State President down to the tea lady, and civil service, municipal service, postal service, SABC, and..., and...., and.... is corrupt from top to bottom. Yes, I quite readily admit that the relevant Nature Conservation authorities pressing the charges against Groenewald and his co-accused may very well be corrupt and may be pressing charges just to favor a family member or political friend who will benifit by Groenewald's demise.

We live in a country well on it's way to a like Mugabe form Zimbabwe caused shambles.

For a good statement of my view of our governments total lack of competency please read Scriptus' signature!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

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21 April 2011, 02:54

adqueen

Andrew....I meant nothing personal towards you at all. In fact, I have no idea who you are or your position on politics, etc. I only meant that sometimes the authorities arrest the wrong people.
And for what it's worth, no country is perfect. There is corruption everywhere...although South Africa seems worst than most.

21 April 2011, 03:53

L. David Keith

The initial bail is called the "Squeeze period" whereby the accused has time to ponder his/her situation. Under a 1 mil bond, the thought of years in prison begin to sound unpleasant, thus giving the accused time to consider his/her chances in a court of law, especially when International opinion is livid for a quilty verdict. By lowering a bail by 90%, this allows the accused to sort out their option of donating to the court's drink fund. This then falls into the "What, me worry?" phase, which the accused loses no more sleep. By the court date (which can be postponed for long periods of time) the public goes onto other concerns and the quiet "trial period" floats by with little notice. Generally, there is a fine of say $25 plus court costs and the "accused" is left to the "minding my own damn business" once again. I hope this explains the legal system in RSA.

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21 April 2011, 06:48

BigFiveJack

quote:
Originally posted by RCG:
Judge G:

IIRC according "adqueen", they were innocent but plead guilty in Federal court to get it over with. Sound about right, "adqueen"?

When you plead guilty to a charge(s) you must state that you
in fact did commit that offense(s). It is unlawful to state that
you did in fact commit the offence(s) that you're pleading to if
in fact you did NOT perpetrate said offence(s).

21 April 2011, 07:46

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
RCG...I just knew that you missed me!
I have been quietly observing all of your commentary. I'm old enough and wise enough to know that there are always two sides to every story and nothing is as black and white as it may seem. Most of the threads about this whole incident are based on other blogs and not actual reporting, which slants the views right off the bat.
I also know that my friends are OAAS are NOT poachers.

of course he is! he has already admitted to it and pled guilty in Federal court. please get your facts straight or shut up.

21 April 2011, 09:45

Saeed

quote:
There is corruption everywhere...although South Africa seems worst than most

I bet SCI will give many African countries a good run for their money when it comes to corruption!

You know, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and squawks like a duck, then it MUST be a duck.

The courts in SA can decide whatever they wish, what we have heard so far about those guys, as well as Out of Africa and their sidekicks in SCI, leaves very little in my mind that they are guilty of some nasty crimes!

21 April 2011, 20:46

adqueen

jdollar----I DO HAVE MY FACTS STRAIGHT! What I said was "I also know that my friends at OAAS are NOT poachers". They NEVER plead guilty to rhino poaching!!!! It is YOU who has the facts wrong. Not only were the poaching allegations (no formal charges, mind you) in South Africa, NOT the U.S. Federal courts, but the guilty plea in the U.S. Federal courts was regarding a leopard skin shipment. (And, please don't tell me to "shut up")

21 April 2011, 23:23

JudgeG

Oops! Make that leopard poaching, I guess?

Reference: If the shoe fits, wear it!

quote:
Poaching is the illegal taking of wild plants or animals contrary to local and international conservation and wildlife management laws. Violations of hunting laws and regulations are normally punishable by law and, collectively, such violations are known as poaching.

It may be illegal and in violation because

The game or fish is not in season; usually the breeding season is declared as the closed season when wildlife species are protected by law.
The poacher does not possess a valid permit.
The poacher is illegally selling the animal, animal parts or plant for a profit.
The animal is being hunted outside of legal hours.
The hunter used an illegal weapon for that animal.
The animal or plant is on restricted land.
The right to hunt this animal is claimed by somebody.
The type of bait is inhumane. (e.g. food unsuitable for an animal's health)
The means used are illegal (for example, baiting a field while hunting quail or other animals, using spotlights to stun or paralyze deer, or hunting from a moving vehicle, watercraft, or aircraft).
The animal or plant is protected by law or that it has been listed as extinct or endangered (see for example the Endangered Species Act for the USA or the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 and similar laws/treaties.
The animal or plant has been tagged by a researcher.

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
jdollar----I DO HAVE MY FACTS STRAIGHT! What I said was "I also know that my friends at OAAS are NOT poachers". They NEVER plead guilty to rhino poaching!!!! It is YOU who has the facts wrong. Not only were the poaching allegations (no formal charges, mind you) in South Africa, NOT the U.S. Federal courts, but the guilty plea in the U.S. Federal courts was regarding a leopard skin shipment. (And, please don't tell me to "shut up")

22 April 2011, 08:15

jdollar

quote:
Originally posted by adqueen:
jdollar----I DO HAVE MY FACTS STRAIGHT! What I said was "I also know that my friends at OAAS are NOT poachers". They NEVER plead guilty to rhino poaching!!!! It is YOU who has the facts wrong. Not only were the poaching allegations (no formal charges, mind you) in South Africa, NOT the U.S. Federal courts, but the guilty plea in the U.S. Federal courts was regarding a leopard skin shipment. (And, please don't tell me to "shut up")

which was illegally shot and imported into the US- i.e. poaching. surely you can do better than that. a rather pathetic attempt at best to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. REPEAT- SHUT UP IF THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO! people here are not as gullible as you seem to think and certainly not as stupid as you seem to be.

27 April 2011, 20:55

adqueen

My my, Jdollar. You seem to have a lot of anger within you. Have you sought counseling?

27 April 2011, 21:34

prof242

jdollar,
Probably shouldn't do this, but as a licensed criminal psychologist, I am at your service. Not for providing you with counseling, but for those in S. Africa.

28 April 2011, 08:19

Mike Smith

Adqueen, It has been my observation that those who plead guilty damn sure are and have no other way out. They plead guilty to cut a deal and get out as cheaply as possible. In those cases the prosecution will not cut the deal otherwise.

For people who may or may not be guilty but just want to get it over with and move on it is handled differently. Again there will be some type of plea deal put in place but the defendent will plead no contest.

Last how do YOU explain 30 or so rhino carcases buried on Dawie's place?