Hi Mike

No problem. I've been studying Elephants for many years, through books & personal study etc, and for many years I was fairly closely involved in the study of the first herd of Elephants that were translocated from the KNP into Zululand. During that time, I've learned that not only are they a very complicated species that fall into a catagory completely on their own, I've also learned that there is still a huge amount we simply don't know about them.......Esp how they communicate and how close their family ties are etc. So I guess, my answer to your question is that I believe my opinions are based on the science of studying Elephants, but sure, I guess there's also a degree of emotion in the formation of those opinions. Certainly, I could give many examples of how their thought processes seem to work in a different way to other species.....

I also believe that if hunters took the trouble to learn a little more about this species before they went and hunted them, they'd not only change thair minds about which Elephant is the right one to hunt, they'd also gain so much more from the experience of hunting the right animal. (Hope I don't sound too much like a preacher here! )

There's a long list of interesting and informative books out there to help us learn about Elephants, but a short list you might enjoy are:

The Sound of Thunder by Katy Payne
Africa's Elephant by Martin Meredith
When Elephants Weep by Jeffrey Masson & Susan McGarthy
Wildlife Wars by Richard Leakey and Virginia Morell

I don't agree with everything they all say, but all do make interesting points and all have a contribution to make to the study of Elephants.

Steve

"Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost"

Off subject, but where is this piece from? I like it.

It's from a poem by Robert Service. The complete poem is:-

The Call of the Wild
Have you gazed on naked grandeur where there's nothing else to gaze on,
Set pieces and drop-curtain scenes galore,
Big mountains heaved to heaven, which the blinding sunsets blazon,
Black canyons where the rapids rip and roar?
Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking through it,
Searched the Vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it;
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost.

Have you wandered in the wilderness, the sagebrush desolation,
The bunch-grass levels where the cattle graze?
Have you whistled bits of rag-time at the end of all creation,
And learned to know the desert's little ways?
Have you camped upon the foothills, have you galloped o'er the ranges,
Have you roamed the arid sun-lands through and through?
Have you chummed up with the mesa? Do you know its moods and changes?
Then listen to the Wild -- it's calling you.

Have you known the Great White Silence, not a snow-gemmed twig aquiver?
(Eternal truths that shame our soothing lies).
Have you broken trail on snowshoes? mushed your huskies up the river,
Dared the unknown, led the way, and clutched the prize?
Have you marked the map's void spaces, mingled with the mongrel races,
Felt the savage strength of brute in every thew?
And though grim as hell the worst is, can you round it off with curses?
Then hearken to the Wild -- it's wanting you.

Have you suffered, starved and triumphed, groveled down, yet grasped at glory,
Grown bigger in the bigness of the whole?
"Done things" just for the doing, letting babblers tell the story,
Seeing through the nice veneer the naked soul?
Have you seen God in His splendors, heard the text that nature renders?
(You'll never hear it in the family pew).
The simple things, the true things, the silent men who do things --
Then listen to the Wild -- it's calling you.

They have cradled you in custom, they have primed you with their preaching,
They have soaked you in convention through and through;
They have put you in a showcase; you're a credit to their teaching --
But can't you hear the Wild? -- it's calling you.
Let us probe the silent places, let us seek what luck betide us;
Let us journey to a lonely land I know.
There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us,
And the Wild is calling, calling. . .let us go.

Hmm...I've been gone on a deer cull this week (seriously) and found this interesting topic upon my return. In fact, I had an email from one of the forum regulars pointing me to it.

Steve, I will have to disagree on your position and I find you in the minority of those who have a lot of elephant experience both sport and culling in regards to your position on cow ele.

Steve, how much sport cow hunting have you and your company done? I'm sure you are aware that many PH's don't want to sport hunt cows because the pay is small and the danger great. On the other hand some PH's and companies love taking clients in on cows and many PH's and clients find it addicting. I know where I stand but where do you fall in that subject?

Hi YD,

I've already answered the question of where I stand on the question of cows and calves, so won't do so again. - I enjoy getting close to DG whether with rifle or camera and have been into Elephant herds many times and also shot many DG at very close range. - 2 years ago, I had a client take a Buffalo bull out of a herd at 4 yards........ but it's not the range I'm talking about, it's the concept of sport hunting cows and calves. As I said in my previous posts, the Thomson books explain why.

Regarding pay, I don't know where you get the idea that the pay for hunting cow Elephants is any less than hunting any other dangerous game. It's usually the same.

I've never sport hunted cows or allowed anyone in my company to sport hunt them.... and I never will.

Please note that as I said in my previous posts, I don't criticise anyone else for doing so, It's none of my business what other people do and if they want to sport hunt cows and calves, it's up to them..........but I choose not to do so and not to allow my company to do so.

Hi Steve. So you haven't done any cow hunting. In effect, you and your safari company are taking a firm position on an entire facet of the safari world that you have not experienced? Makes no difference to me as there are plenty of good men to hunt tuskless with. In fact, they have all of the business they can handle.

I didn't say anything about getting close although that is the best part of it.

I do understand but don't agree with your position and will say again that you are in the minority. Thomson is only one source of many that are qualified to speak on the subject. Richard Harland, Don Heath, Buzz Charlton, Graham at HHK and many other PHs and culling officers would certainly disagree with you not to mention scores of forum members who have hunted tuskless. In fact, Zim Parks promotes the concept of tuskless hunting. So for you to hold forth that your position is somehow superior just doesn't wash.

I have no quarrel with you on the subject of how sobering it is to shoot an elephant. It really changes your life. Personally, I will continue doing it as long as I am able but I do it with a sense of awe and responsibility and I know that my particpation contributes to the management of such.

As to pay, it certainly is different whether you are talking about daily rates, TF's or even tips. Tuskless generate 8-12k and bulls (non-PAC) generate at least 2-3 times as much not to mention higher tips on average as well as export fees, shipping, etc. Some companies simply do not hunt tuskless because the risk is high and the payout is much lower. Scuttlebutt will tell you that as well.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that taking tuskless puts undue stress on the dynamics of a herd. I would disagree on that as well. I have seen no evidence of that and have not found that consensus among experienced ele PHs I know who have taken thousands of ele.

Actually, I said I've never SPORT hunted cows..... I didn't say I've never hunted cows. I have, but never for sport, only when I've had to. (hence my italicising the word sport in my previous post)

As you say, there are plenty of good men out there who do offer cow Elephant hunting and good luck to them and to their clients. If that's what they want then who am I to tell them otherwise. - As I've said, I was expressing my personal opinion and as part of that, I choose not to hunt cows or offer cow hunting. - However, I agree with you that getting close is the very best part of DG hunting.

As to those who disagree with me, that's their choice but my guess is that most people who shoot cows (tuskless or otherwise) do so because they simply want to shoot Elephants and want to do so as cheaply as possible. It has nothing to do with the principles of game management, responsible hunting or anything else........ and I'm not criticising that either. My guess is that if most of these same guys had the choice to hunt a cow or a bull at the same price, most would choose to hunt the bull. This next comment isn't meant as a criticism, just an observation, but I'd bet that the majority of hunters don't know the difference between a family unit, a bond group and a clan and how they all interrelate...... and if they don't, I fail to see how they can understand the consequences of their actions when they shoot a cow Elephant.

Believe me, PH pay and daily rates are two very different things indeed. Again, as I said before, PH pay for hunting cow Elephants is usually the same as hunting any other DG species and from my experience and the experience of other PHs I know, tips are extremely variable in any and all hunts. Profit on a cow Elephant hunt is generally similar to many other types of DG hunt. - It's certainly not less.

Regarding your comment ' (taking tuskless puts undue stress on the dynamics of a herd.) I would disagree on that as well. I have seen no evidence of that and have not found that consensus among experienced ele PHs I know who have taken thousands of ele.;

Can I ask how many times you've shot a cow Elephant and then stayed around long enough to study what happens to the dynamics of the herd?. (I'm talking about days or weeks here, not (even) hours). My guess is that after the shot, you do the same sort of thing as most other hunters with most other species, which is take pictures, take whatever trophies you require and then leave with hardly a backward glance. - That's without even asking how long you've studied their behaviour before the shot so you can spot the difference in their behaviour. (Again, I'm not criticising you or any other hunter here...... I'm just trying to make a point and not be misunderstood.

Without meaning to be rude, I seriously doubt that there's a single PH alive anywhere in Africa that has taken 'thousands of Elephants'

What I'm trying to do here, is express my personal opinion and shed a little light on an interesting subject. I'm not trying to shed heat on anything or pick a fight. Nor am I trying to preach to others, I don't care what they do or how they do it.

Steve, you have been consistently alluding to the concept that taking tuskless cow ele is detrimental to the health & welfare of the herd. What specific data are you basing that on? You need better sources than "When Elephants Weep". You have zero personal experience in sport hunting tuskless according to you so where are you getting the data?

Have I observed a herd for weeks or months after the shot? No...have you? I know safari companies that live in a concession for an entire season with multiple PH's in the field and they don't observe problems in sport taking tuskless out of the herds and they have been doing it for years whereas you have never done it. Where is your data?

You also have zero concept of how I conduct myself in the field and what research I have done. It's ok to have a personal opinion but I don't care for how you view your clients and your observations, if that's what they are, fall far short regarding my conduct in the field and my personal research.

How many elephants does Kuduland Safaris take annually? I don't see any elephant hunts advertised by them (excepting the one photo on your website) and you certainly are not known as a regular elephant PH or booking as such. Most of your experience is in RSA. I'm just wondering what you are basing all of this on? Your position is highly inconsistent with the dedicated elephant PHs that I know in Zim, each of which has much more experience with ele than any RSA PH. It's fine to disagree, and I have no problem with that, but you are taking a superior "air" to the rest of the professional industry AND their clients. The fact of the matter is that guys who can afford to hunt ivory often prefer to chase tuskless as do the PHs that guide them. Since you don't book for that, I don't know how you would know differently?

I did not say that individual PHs have taken over 1000 ele but there are some. Ever heard of Paul Grobler? I just got an email from him last week and he is alive and well. There are numerous PHs that have taken hundreds and EVERY one of them that I know promotes tuskless hunting. Also, to my knowledge, every one of them that I know personally prefers the overall experience and excitement of sport hunting of tuskless over chasing ivory. Average ivory is also generally easier to obtain than tuskless and much safer...no question about that. PHs that like to hunt tuskless do it for the thrill and experience not the money as there is better and safer money to be had doing other hunts.

As to the money, sure the working PH gets paid the same but we are talking about safari companies also and they are run and owned by some of these PHs. It's absurd to say that the profits are the same. It's apples and oranges and your own comments illustrate that (referring to them as a lesser/cheaper experience). Tuskless dailies are about $650. Compare that to rates for trophy bulls at $1000 plus or lions (God help us) or even buffalo which are hundreds higher than tuskless dailies. Then there is the length of hunts which are much longer on average than tuskless...often twice as long. The camps are the same, the staff is the same but the work (on average) is harder and riskier for tuskless than for buff or average ivory and for less money.

Looking forward to your data validating that sport hunting tuskless is detrimental to overall herd health. If your position is strictly a personal decision and opinion, that is fine but you imply there is data to support it.

I would be interested in Richard Harland's take on this topic as well.

I like the thought process offered on this thread and side with Steve on his opinions. However, I, like Steve, do not condemn or criticize tuskless cow or PAC elephant hunting. It is just not for me.

I'll answer your points in turn.

1. I'm not suggesting that taking tuskless cow ele is detrimental to the health & welfare of the herd at all. - I'm suggesting that taking cows (tuskless or otherwise) is detrimental to the dynamics of the herd. This opinion is formed from regular study over the last 15 years or so of Elephants that have and others that have not been subjects of cow hunting. I would suggest however that the aggression level of the Zambezi ladies when compared to that of Tanzania for example, is proof in itself. - Incidentally, another book you might like to consider is 'Elephant Memories' by Cynthia Moss.

2. Yes, I have.... many times. give me a while to sort through some of my pics and I'll try to post a few pics I've taken over the years during the times I've been doing these studies. Incidentally, I also spent a large part of my time helping the late Zoologist Kay Hiscocks during her Elephant studies in the KNP. BTW, I never commented on your behaviour in the field but I did ask what research you've done.... you didn't answer that one.

3. We sell a few every year. I believe next year we have something like 6 Elephant hunts booked in Botswana and 1 or 2 - 21 day hunts booked in TZ but I don't know if the clients want Elephant or not. If you didn't see the offers on my website, you didn't look in the right place. Try special offers. We have an Elephant (mature bulls only) hunt there for US$10K all inclusive and although it's not on the site yet, we will also be offering a PG or Leopard hunt where you can take non exportable mature bulls as an add on for US$5K each.

3. I live in RSA but operate for about 2-3 months a year in Botswana and about 5 months a year in Tanzania. I've also operated in Mozambique and elsewhere in the past. I don't know where you got the idea that most of my experience was in SA. - I don't offer DG hunting in SA and only rarely do a PG only hunt. I've been in the safari business for close to 30 years...... So although Idon't claim to know all the answers, I do probably know most of them..

4. How am I taking a superior air? - I keep stating that other hunters can do what they like and it's none of my business what they do. If the Zim PHs you've spoken to offer or hunt cow Elephants, it's hardly suprising they support it...... is it?

5. You did say that individual PHs have taken over 1000 ele...... which is why I questioned the statement. As for numerous PHs that have taken hundreds..... I'd even question that statement. Perhaps you could name half a dozen of those numerous PHs?

6. You did suggest that the pay to the PH was higher for hunting cows...... which is why I questioned it.

7. Regarding the data on sport hunting tuskless Elephants, you might like to do some checking on the net, but I'd guess it's hard to find..... I've made a point of repeatedly stating that my comments are just my opinion but if you think otherwise, I'd be very interested to see YOUR data proving that fact.

All I'm doing is stating my opinion and I'm not telling others what they should or shouldn't do. - You on the other hand, seem to want me to do as you preach.

I've amended my post above and thought I should say so for sake of clarity.... and like Dogcat, I'd be very interested to hear RH opinion..... it probably won't change mine, but I'll be very interested to hear what he has to say......

Steve, thanks for your reply. This sounds like it is simply your personal position with no statistical data to support it or you would offer it. If you have participated in all of these studies then surely you have data? Remember, we are talking about the sport taking of cows being detrimental to herd health but you state above that you have never participated in this and never will. Culls and non-sport hunts are not being discussed here nor is the shooting of cows in self defense. Unless I misunderstand you, that is the basis of your experience?

You misunderstood my PH taking thousands comment as it was a group statement but the fact remains that Grobler has done exactly that and is still alive.

I never stated the money was higher for cows...I said it was less.

It's possible you misunderstand me...I don't need you to agree with me. I just wanted to understand your statements as they were taking the position that you were more correct than the rest of the industry.

Just to be clear, I enjoy the dialogue and have no problem with your personal opinion except that I don't agree with it or see it as an exemplary industry standard. Lots of guys don't want to hunt tuskless or even ele in general but it doesn't make it wrong. It's their personal opinion which seems to be what you are stating here...except for your comments regarding the ignorance of others regarding ele and the proper way to hunt them.

Hi YD
Again, I'll answer your points in turn.

1. There are plenty of reports out there that support my personal opinions..... I suggest you look for them yourself. - You might learn something. - I'm not suggesting the hunting of cows affects herd health..... I'm suggesting it affects herd dynamics, which is very different.

2. Yes you are mistaken. Most of the cows I've shot have been previously injured in some way.

3. Have you ever asked Mr Grobler how many Elephants he's shot..... I doubt it would be thousands. If I remember correctly, not even Bell took a thousand, let alone thousands. Even working on the figure of just one thousand rather than thousands, he'd have had to average 50 a year for 20 years to attain that figure.

4. As I repeatedly state, I don't care what others do, I just won't hunt sport hunt cows myself or offer it through my company. THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY CAN DO AS THEY LIKE AND I DON'T CONDEMN THEM FOR IT!

Like you, I enjoy the dialogue - but as for the ignorance of many people who hunt cows..... IMO that's exactly what it is. If they knew more, they'd know better. Those that want to hunt cows always will and those that don't, won't.

Anyway, here's just a very few pics I've been fortunate enough to take (mostly) during the time I've spent just watching or taking part in various studies of Elephants.










Note the pink dart

yukon delta,, and Shakari I read both views with great interest, and I agree with both you on one or the other level, and I don't see the need for a match on this subject, because both you are correct, and both are wrong, on some things IMO !

It seems to me Yukon's main thing is money, and Shakari's thing is elephant welfare in the long run. Both are real concerns for all of us, and I'm sure most have opinions that differ from both you, and certainly with me!

As I've said, on this site, many times I have exactly Two shots on ONE bull ele to my score, and that ele was not mine, but was two back-up shots on the bull that my friend botched the brain shot on. So having said that, let me say, for the record, that one doesn't have to kill 1000 ele, to know something about their family dynamics, and understand the research that has been done by the game people in the field.

What Shakari says is backed by data formulated by game park rangers, who tried for years to capture one ele and move him/her to another place where they had fewer ele. This didn't work, because the single eles moved, would usually become rogues, because the families in residence, would not accept them. This lead to the game people simply shooting the excess ele by taking so many cows, and so many bulls, still with no regard to the families. It was found that if you move, or cull ele cows, you must move the whole family together, or cull the whole family. This applies to cows more than bulls, because the cows stay together, and the bulls roam! That is management for parks, but applies to the hunting field as well. I think that is what Shakari was refering to, and is simply solid management policy.

On the other hand, Yukon's point is taken from his desire to shoot ele, and being able to afford to do it! Nothing wrong with that concept either. He is correct, that hunting cows, especially tuskless cows is a dangerous undertaking. This is because cow ele usually will be in a family group, and all stand, and fight if one is attack. Top this off with tuskless cows, or Bulls for that matter, because they tend to be bullies, taking food away from smaller cows who have dug this up, or stripped it, with tusks. Still, when trouble starts they stick together. Sure you have Eskaris the help protect an old bull, but there are usually only two or three, where there may be a dozen cows to deal with when you knock down a cow.

The danger is there, adding spice to the hunt, and the price is lower, allowing one to hunt ele, that normally wouldn't be able to. Yukon is correct on these points!

SO............Both are correct from different perspectives.

Shakari, on the long term welfare of the elephant as a species, and Yukon, on the side of the hunter who just wants to hunt elephant, and wants to hunt cows for the lower cost, and the adrenaline rush from having to get into the group to get to the one you want to shoot!

SO, since I can't afford to hunt elephant of any kind, so other than loving elephants, I have no dog in this fight, but I do see the points both are making, and I simply don't see the need for the accusations tossed back and forth. As I say, I certainly don't have any real experience shooting elephant, but that doesn't mean I don't know how, or what to shoot, first for my own reasons, like Yukon, or for the best outcome for the elephant population.

I would say, it makes far more sense, that a man who has hunted, around elephant for years, on a daily basis, season after season, would be far more informed on ele behavior, and needs than someone who may have shot a couple of ele on a couple of 15 day safaris. Of course I could be wrong, because I did make a mistake once back in 1954, But I divorced her, other than that....................

Come on guys, the exchange of ideas is what this forum is all about, and there is no need to always be right, unless you also realize there is a chance you could be wrong! Wars were started on less conflict than one sees on these web-sites.

Mac,

You're quite right..... I even said that (IMO) most people who hunt cows (tuskless or otherwise) do so for financial reasons and that I didn't blame them for that. - All I've been trying to do is explain my personal opinions and also say that what other hunters choose to do is none of my business......

Very glad to hear you understand my point of view though. - Thanks. Thanks also for the laugh about your 1954 mistake!

This is a very interesting discussion and one that I have a great interest in. I think Shakari does some hunters and biologists an injustice when he says that "any one who shoots cows, does so out of ignorance." There are several ex-Parks officers currently working as PHs in Zim that hunt cow elephants and who are very aware of the difference of opinions regarding the hunting of cow elephants.

I am not a PH but an American wildlife biologist with 38 years of experience in managing and researching big game and bird populations. This has included both population dynamics and hunting affects studies among others. I have an undergraduate degree in Zoology and an advanced degree in wildlife Biology. I have no research or management experience of elephants.

I am very familiar with Thompson's books and ideas on the affects of cow hunting as well as his positions on other facets of elephant management. I have read all but one of the other books mentioned by Shakari.

I do not approach my opinion on cow hunting from the position of ignorance. I personally have no problem with the taking of cows whether tuskless or tusked under certain conditions. I think the negative affects associated with cow harvest are certainly present but often over emphasized. In some cases those negative affects may actually be beneficial to the long term elephant population. I'll make that case a little later.

The theory that it is more desirable to cull whole herds rather than individuals form herds was developed by the Zimbabwe Parks people during the big culls that occurred tin the 60's, 70's and 80's in Hwange and Gonarezhou National Parks in Zimbabwe. The Parks Officers found that when you culled individual animals form cow herds the surviving cows spread the alarm to other herds causing a heightened freight response among them. They became less visible and more truculent when around humans. Obviously, having frightened cow herds in a National Park was not good for the tourist industry. One of the main problems with elephant overpopulation in the Parks was the loss of large trees. It was found that the bulls were responsible for most of that damage and they were not being culled. Therefore culling whole herds makes perfect sense in a National Park environment.

But all elephants are not in National Parks and even those that are commonly come out of the parks and raid crops in the communal lands. Crop raiding elephants have led to starvation of indigenous people in many parts of Africa. Management of elephants in communal lands largely revolves around the reducing or eliminating crop damage. Culling of whole herds is not a very practical technique under these conditions. Electric fences, ditches and scare devices have all been tried with limited success. For over 100 years a man and a rifle have been the most effective cure for these problems. The same freight response to being hunted that is so negative in a Park situation is used to move elephants from crop lands in a crop raiding scenario. So what is a negative reaction in a Park situation is a positive reaction in a crop raiding situation.

There is also a concern that shooting of the matriarch of the herd will lead to a lower survival rate of the herd due to the fact the the oldest cow knows all the migration routes, best food sources at different times of the year and where water can be found during drought periods. The concern is that losing the matriarch means a loss of this knowledge. Again I think this thinking underestimates the elephants ability to handle adversity. The second tier cow will be almost as old as the matriarch and have almost as much experience and since she has been following the matriarch for 40 or more years most of the knowledge of migration routes. As elephants are born every year matriarchs die every year and to say that is detrimental, short changes the elephants abilities to survive losses. If that was the case elephants would have disappeared long ago. Remember when the elephants come to raid the croplands, they are led there by the matriarch. In addition it has been shown that the satellite bull herds follow the cow herds. Usually at a distance and sometimes at a great distance but they will follow the cows to the crop lands, thereby increasing the damage done to crops and the old age trees. Should we kill whole herds that are raiding crops because they will be disturbed if we don't? Hardly!

These are my opinions based on my knowledge of elephant behavior and population dynamics. But my mind is always open to change based on reasoned thinking. As new knowledge is gained I reserve the right to modify my opinions on this subject.

465H&H

Hi 465,

I appreciate your post.

Perhaps I should have said that I believe that anyone who shoots cows, does so out of ignorance or simply not caring about the result of their actions. - That doesn't necessarily make them ignorant. It might possibly make them other things, but not necessarily ignorant of the facts.

Regarding your second para: I believe Elephants fall into a catagory of their own and without meaning to be rude, if you haven't studied Elephants, then knowledge of other species can't be applied to Elephants.

The culling principles you mention were developed by a variety of people all around the same time......Incidentally, it's usually the bulls that push the trees over and the cows and calves that bark strip.... Culling cows and calves is usually done to reduce population and future population. - A good idea, but I do appreciate your comment about crop raiders. Although from my personal experience, it's much more likely that crop raiders will be male rather than female. That doesn't mean that females don't raid crops, it means that from my personal experience, it's more usual for the males of the species to be the culprits. One problem is that some unscrupulous outfitters tell clients they're shooting a problem animal when they're just shooting an animal for profit.

Migration routes are an entire diffferent can of worms. The truth is that whilst there were migration routes all around Africa, that is no longer the case and due to human interferance, we now have 'islands' of Elephant population that have far smaller migratory routes in individual areas rather than a continent wide route. Incidentally, there is an organisation called space for Elephants (that I support in a small way) Their plan is to try to create a new migratory route around the entire continent. I personally don't think it'll ever be achieved, but am happy to try in my own small way to support the idea.

I believe that shooting any cow, whether matriach or not, affects the dynamics of the herd, makes them more aggressive and paranoid and therefore shouldn't be shot...... that doesn't mean I criticise anyone else for doing otererwise.

Three points of interest:

1.) Elephants in different areas display different attitudes. For example, I find northern Zambezi Valley elephants to be about mid stream in the range from mild mannered to aggressive elephants. Elephants in the Chete area, where tuskless are hunted, were mild mannered in comparison. Same in Omay, where a few tuskless and more tusked cows are hunted. But then you have the Save elephants which weren't hunted for years, but which are Gonarhezhou strain and which are very aggressive.

I suspect that hunting has an effect, but with the wide range of general demeanors that I have observed, I have to think that much of the difference is just locallity. Not much different than people in, say, New York vs Georgia, or New Jersey vs Wisconsin...

2.) All of the elephant PH's I know prefer tuskless cow hunting to bull hunting. Not that any one of them wouldn't love the opportunity to lead a bull hunt, especially in a good bull area, just that they prefer the actual hunt for the tuskless.

3.) I believe that there are at least a half dozen living hunters who have killed or have been PH for a thousand elephants. Richard Harland comes to mind, Paul Grobbler, Ron Thomson, Tony Sanchez(sp?)...

JPK

Shakari!

I didn't take you to be rude at all. If one is to be a true student of wildlife one must always have an open mind and always question your beliefs. I am thick skinned and seldom take offence at any one disagreeing with me. It seems that the ratio of raiding cow herds versus raiding bull groups is somewhat area dependent. I had read the same as you that bulls are crop raiders and cows not. I believed that until I started to hunt PAC elephants in the Omay area of Zimbabwe. I can assure you that cow raids are almost a daily experience there. I have read of similar cases in southern Tanzania. Many basic biological and behavioral traits are shared by many species. I would dare say any trait you find in elephants can also be found in one or more other species. Remember many scientists believe that the most intelligent animals next to man are the marine mammals and not elephants. The social structure of killer whale pods are very complicated and when we learn more about them we may find that they are as complex or more complex than elephant social structure. I also don't mean to be rude but, you may have studied or read about elephants but I don't think your understanding of basic biological principals is great. Remember your an amateur when it comes to the biological sciences and not a trained and educated professional. Also I have never seen any data to suggest that there was anything like a continent wide elephant migration. I suspect as with other species such as a bull elk or bighorn ram, an individual bull might go on a wide romp checking out the distant ladies it was not a continent wide route. Migrations were from one feeding or watering area to another. I believe that you end up with aggressive and truculent cows or bulls for that matter when elephants are not killed cleanly and there are wounded elephants wandering the Jesse. The Zambezi lady's are a perfect example. Amateurs were hunting these elephants and wounding many. Where elephants are killed cleanly that doesn't seem to be a problem. I still appreciate your opinions and weigh them along with all the rest I have read, discussed with elephant professionals and biologists. Keep it up!

JPK,

You can add Derek (Gomez) Adams to that list of PHs that have killed in excess of 1,000 elephants.

465H&H

This is truly fascinating. Well done.

Brian

I would hope that Don Heath would jump in on this thread as he has been there and done that both from a hunting, culling and wildlife research standpoint. I believe he isn't too keen on cow hunting but I respect his opinion anyway. He makes me question my opinion.

465H&H

465H&H,

Yes, I have heard that Gomez Adams has a lot of experience. (But didn't know he had that much.)

It would be great if Don Heath and also Richard Harland pitch in here. Also Ivan Carter and any other elephant PH's who post here. Too bad Buzz doesn't, I would like to read his input as well.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
465H&H,

Yes, I have heard that Gomez Adams has a lot of experience. (But didn't know he had that much.)

It would be great if Don Heath and also Richard Harland pitch in here. Also Ivan Carter and any other elephant PH's who post here. Too bad Buzz doesn't, I would like to read his input as well.

JPK

Gomez Adams??? I though he was married to Mortisha and had a couple of kids - Pugsley and Wednesday...

I'm enjoying this and like you guys, I'd value the input of Richard, Don and Ganyana. - Although I appreciate they may well prefer not to comment.

465H&H,

Some traits that are found in Elephants but not in other species, that I know of are the ability to communicate - esp over long distances, an awareness of death and a seeming ability to mourn..... although the latter is much harder to prove. - I know nothing about wales I'm afraid so can't comment on that. - except perhaps to say the best thing to come out of wales is the M4 (Sorry, English joke there!)

I appreciate I'm not a trained professional, but neither am I stupid and neither do I walk around with my eyes closed. Personally, I don't particularly put much faith in many of 'professional' people unless they have had a great deal of practical experience in the bush. I've worked with a great many people over the years who for example had come over here to complete a degree/doctorate etc, and most of them were bloody idiots who didn't know which way was up let alone anything else.......

Regarding the migrations, you might like to read Africa's Elephant a Biography by Martin Meredith and also Elephant Memories by Cynthia Moss. - I'm going by memory here, but am fairly sure that one of those 2 books discuss the matter in some detail. Cynthia Moss incidentally has the longest (by far) ongoing Elephant study and it's well worth paying attention to anything related to her. I appreciate she's not pro hunting but she sure as hell knows her Elephants.

When referring to aggressive Elephants, you state that 'I believe that you end up with aggressive and truculent cows or bulls for that matter when elephants are not killed cleanly and there are wounded elephants wandering the Jesse. The Zambezi lady's are a perfect example. Amateurs were hunting these elephants and wounding many. Where elephants are killed cleanly that doesn't seem to be a problem.' - I'd take issue with that statement. (IMO) when a cow is taken out of a herd and even when cleanly killed, it affects the surviving members of the family unit in many ways (including heightened aggression levels) for a very long time. However, I'm sure that the sport hunting of cows is not the only factor causing this. I'd say that poaching also plays a part.

Going back to the PHs who have killed thousand(s) of Elephants...... I was referring to PHs who are currently operational and although more than willing to be corrected, I'd be very suprised if there's many, or indeed perhaps any that could honestly say and prove they have hunted a thousand Elephants, let alone thousands. If there are, I'd be even more interested to hear where, when and with whom they qualified........

I'm also interested to read JPKs comments and would be interested to hear other opinions on that. (Esp) regarding Zambezi Valley and some other areas, I wonder if the herds might possibly have been affected by the heavy poaching etc that happens there nowadays or even perhaps by the Mozambican war?....... But I don't know enough about them to comment. I haven't been to the Zambezi valley for many years because I don't particularly like the place, or more accurately, I like other places more...... but the last time I was there, I don't remember the Elephants being particularly aggressive.

Steve, I find it interesting that you continue to modify your statements in several areas. Anyone that reads through this discussion will find that you are shifting your words in areas as you are given more info. I'm not going to list all of them but I will continue to watch you fumble your way through this discussion. The PHs that have shot hundreds and thousands are only one example. None living...none operating...none that are left handed and gay...which is it? Again, just one example.

You don't like the Zambezi Valley...that's fine albeit putting you again into a very small minority. In fact I have never heard someone in the safari industry say that...ever...but your statement that the Zambezi valley cows are not particularly agressive makes one wonder if you have ever seen a Zambezi valley cow. Do you care to elaborate on the position that Zambezi valley cows are NOT particularly aggressive? You would find yourself quite lonely if you were to try. That's just one statement of dozens that you have made that are questionable.

Mac, FWIW you have missed my point by a country mile. It is not financially based and if you look back you will see that I was simply responding to Steve's comments. Do I enjoy the hunt for tuskless? Absolutely and I feel it has changed my life in ways that are hard to describe but many here understand with no words being necessary. I guess I have enjoyed being a part of the management process, small as my contribution may be...and I am confident that taking cows is a legitimate step in the management process. My statements and position are not based upon my experience as that is statistically too small to draw broad, sweeping conclusions from. However, my experience does corroborate with that of people that have shot hundreds and yes, even thousands (Oh, the horror!) of elephants. I base my position upon their position as I highly respect their life and work with elephants.

I appreciate the comments of 465H&H and JPK. This has been an interesting discussion.

Hold on bwana...... first, it's not a pissing contest that's going on here, it's a debate, and second, it's not me that's modifing my stayements, it's you. On 14 November at 0754, you stated:-

'If I understand you correctly, you are saying that taking tuskless puts undue stress on the dynamics of a herd. I would disagree on that as well. I have seen no evidence of that and have not found that consensus among experienced ele PHs I know who have taken thousands of ele.'

Then on the same day at 1817, you stated:-

'I did not say that individual PHs have taken over 1000 ele but there are some. Ever heard of Paul Grobler? I just got an email from him last week and he is alive and well. There are numerous PHs that have taken hundreds'

So basically, you went from thousands to over a thousand to hundreds!

Interesting to hear you've never heard someone in the safari industry say they don't like the Zambezi Valley...... (what I said was 'I haven't been to the Zambezi valley for many years because I don't particularly like the place, or more accurately, I like other places more') I guess that's probably because you don't know many people in the safari industry. I know of plenty of PHs who prefer other areas to the valley. You might be suprised to hear that one side of the Zambezi Valley is in Mozambique and the last time I was there was about 95 or 96...... and I clearly remember the Elephants on that area were not particularly aggressive AT THAT TIME ...... quite the contrary in fact....... BUT then there was far less poaching than I'm told there is now. When was the first time you were in either side of the Zambezi Valley and how much time have you spent there in total? - You're quite right, I did change the word alive to operational...... but as I said in my post of 1843 on 14 November, if you can name 6 of these PHs whether alive OR operational, I'd be very suprised.

As to your comment: - 'I guess I have enjoyed being a part of the management process' - (From what you've told us) If you believe you've been part of the management process in any responsible way, you're sadly mistaken. ..... It strikes me that you, like many people who opt to hunt cows are doing so because you want to shoot Elephants and cost is an important criteria to you..... and that's fine, it's none of my business, but to try to dress it up as anything else is ridiculous.

As I keep saying, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO, IT'S ENTIRELY UP TO THEM. BUT IT'S ALSO UP TO ME TO DECIDE WHETHER I WANT TO HUNT COWS OR FOR MY COMPANY TO OFFER SIMILAR HUNTS. I'll make my own decisions bwana and you make yours........ - Let's try to keep this forum for what it was designed to do, rather than for hurling childish insults from behind a keyboard.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I absolutely LOVE hunting elephant... one of the world's great sporting challenges when tracked on foot. Mile after long mile, you truly earn your trophy. And there is nothing that compares to being in amongst a herd in the bush for a pure adrenaline rush!

And there is no finer elephant hunting then in Zimbabwe with, as a group, the world's best PH's! May it continue for a long, long time.

Shakari and all,

I too have found this very enlightening and thank you for taking the time to have a serious debate. Shakari, would you be so kind as to eleaborate on your exp with selous elephants and where exactly you have hunted/taken them. No, not GPS coord, simply the concession as it is where I'd like to take mine.

Steve (or should I call you "PH"?), I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with the conversation here even though you have wiggled around various subjects. Let's take the thousands comment for example. I have said hundreds and thousands both at various times. That's because there are PHs at both levels which you continue to have a problem with. You are then given by 3 different guys, the names of several PHs who have shot over 1000 ele each. Then you squirm and say well, are they still alive...then are they still active...then how about 1/2 dozen? You don't even know about Paul Grobler's experience. That shows the level of your knowledge on the subject. I know clients who have shot more elephant in a season then your entire company will next year. You have ZERO personal experience sport hunting cows but you continue to drag along on the subject while ignoring the experience and writings of those who have done it many, many times.

Here's another point, you continue to fall back on the statement that your position is personal only (that's called being politically correct)...yet you continue to state that those of us who hunt cows are not only cheap but ignorant and in no way contributing to ele management. So, which is it...your personal position or a blanket statement? Several of us have said that we would hunt tuskless over ivory consistently as well as all of the PHs we know that hunt ele on a regular basis. Are we still cheap and ignorant? Again, just one more inconsistency of many.

Zambezi valley cows are not agressive? Show me someone who works there and agrees with you?

You have been told by a career biologist that you have little understanding of what is taking place here yet you continue to portray yourself as an expert that knows more than the rest of the safari industry. I personally do not consider myself to be an expert but I know a number of people who are and I feel the same that they do so I know I am in good company.

Clearly you have it all figured out and know more about it then the biologists, wildlife managers, Zim Parks and Zim PHs and culling officers. You really think that Richard Harland or Buzz or Ivan Carter or Graham Hingeston or Paul Grobler or any of the other highly experienced ele PHs will get on here and say that they agree with you? I know their position.

I've hunted quite a lot of areas in the Selous over the years. With Tanzanian prices as they are, I'll assume you're looking for a really good bull. In which case, you might like to consider the eastern Selous blocks if you have a generous budget.

If money is more of a concern, then MK1 & Gonabisi (esp the palm forests on the Gonabisi border) at the top of the Selous often have a lot of Elephants and often some big ones, but that area has been reduced in size recently which may be a problem. Going further down into the Rs etc, those areas also produce some good tuskers but from my experience (esp over the last 4 years) they tend to arrive in the block late. Retreever took a good bull there last year and a few weeks later there were 2 fabulous bulls hanging around. - Sadly all the hunters were on 7 day licences but I'd estimate one at over 70 lbs and the other close to or slightly over 80lbs. - A similar situation occurred this year. It's so long since I hunted the Ks, I can't really remember how it was for Elephant...... sorry. I've seen and chased a few big ones in LU3 as well, but it's not always an easy area to hunt in some ways. Very rain dependant, a bit short on roads and lots of mountains.

If you are happy to take a chance on a shit or bust situation, you might like to consider Masailand where they started putting Elephants on the ordinary 21 day licence this year. Hunt there and you might never see an Elephant but on the other hand, there are some HUGE tuskers around. The only problem with Masailand is that when I spoke to the GD up there to check that the Elephant we had on licence wasn't a mistake, they told me there was a policy of once the trophies were loaded onto the vehicle they wanted the hunters to 'bury or burn' the carcass....... honestly, what a bloody silly idea. - Unless you can pop down the road and borrow a handy mechanical digger or a flamethrower, it'd take forever.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good areas I haven't mentioned and may well not know of and I'm sure other forum members will make their own suggestions. BwanaMich may well have some suggestions worth listening to......

YD,

Hey, I think you need to grow up a little and stop being so sensitive. For a start, I never suggested you were 'cheap' - that's not what I said and it's not what I intended. Pretty much all of us have a budget to work to for everything we do, me included, (actually, especially me! ) and if you think I was criticising you for hunting to a budget, you're very wrong. So now we've attended to your hurt feelings about your misconception that I called you cheap, let's move on to ignorant. Do I think you're ignorant? - Well, I think you might be ignorant of at least some of the work that has been published about this subject..... which is why I suggested a reading list..... if your opinion is different to mine, you're welcome to give me a reading list of your side of the argument and I WILL go out and buy the books and read them. Then if I'm convinced, I might change my opinion.

Nor did I ever suggest I'm the biggest Elephant hunter in the world or an Elephant expert. I hunt a few, watch a lot and photograph a reasonable amount, and I don't pretend otherwise....... You want me to pay attention to anyone who has experience and writings (as you put it) on the subject..... I do pay attention to them, but I don't have to necessarily agree with them. I'll make up my own mind and those that don't like my making up my own mind, can do the other thing. - Doesn't your own constitution say something about freedom of thought?

Zambezi Cows are not aggressive..... that's NOT what I said. I suggest you re-read my post. What I said was that the last time I was there, they were not particularly aggressive...... Then I said that the last time I was there was about 10 years ago....... I don't doubt for a moment the fact that they are aggressive now. My intention was to question why their behaviour has changed........

I valued the comments of the career biologist, but by his own admission, he knows very little about Elephants and as we're talking about Elephants here, I see no reason to be persuaded by his comments..... whether he's a career biologist or anything else. I know of at least one zoologist who spent at least 6 years to my knowledge studying Elephants full time, and she agreed with me. As do many other zoologists and biologists that HAVE spent time studying Elephants. Amongst them Drs J. Anderson (ex head ranger at Wankie) and P Viljoen. - but that's another can of worms. Incidentally, I beleive both guys contributed to the TGTS Lion report and the Big 5 as a game ranch animal series of books.....so both are very well qualified to come to informed decisions on these type of subjects.....

As to your last para..... I don't claim to have it all figured out and believe we all still have a lot to learn about Elephants, but as I said,there's a whole lot of biologists, wildlife managers and game departments who would agree with me...... not all, but at least some and I'd guess, many.

I'm also very pleased for you that you know the position that Richard, Buzz, Ivan, Graham and Paul share. As far as I'm concerned bwana, you and they are very welcome to share whatever opinion you wish.......... and I am free to form whatever opinion I wish as well. As I keep saying, you are free to do whatever you like, I don't care, it's none of my business. - But please don't tell me what to think. I'll make up my own mind.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Mac, FWIW you have missed my point by a country mile. It is not financially based and if you look back you will see that I was simply responding to Steve's comments. Do I enjoy the hunt for tuskless? Absolutely and I feel it has changed my life in ways that are hard to describe but many here understand with no words being necessary. I guess I have enjoyed being a part of the management process, small as my contribution may be...and I am confident that taking cows is a legitimate step in the management process. My statements and position are not based upon my experience as that is statistically too small to draw broad, sweeping conclusions from. However, my experience does corroborate with that of people that have shot hundreds and yes, even thousands (Oh, the horror!) of elephants. I base my position upon their position as I highly respect their life and work with elephants.

Sorry Yukon, but I didn't miss your meaning at all, I fully understand your reasoning in this matter! However, I believe you are listening to yourself, and tuning out anything that disagrees, lock-step, with your opinion. After all, that is all it is, your OPINION! You know the old saying everybody has one of those amoung other things!

quote:

by Yukon

Steve (or should I call you "PH"?), I have absolutely no trouble keeping up with the conversation here even though you have wiggled around various subjects. Let's take the thousands comment for example. I have said hundreds and thousands both at various times. That's because there are PHs at both levels which you continue to have a problem with. You are then given by 3 different guys, the names of several PHs who have shot over 1000 ele each. Then you squirm and say well, are they still alive...then are they still active...then how about 1/2 dozen? You don't even know about Paul Grobler's experience. That shows the level of your knowledge on the subject. I know clients who have shot more elephant in a season then your entire company will next year. You have ZERO personal experience sport hunting cows but you continue to drag along on the subject while ignoring the experience and writings of those who have done it many, many times.

Here's another point, you continue to fall back on the statement that your position is personal only (that's called being politically correct)...yet you continue to state that those of us who hunt cows are not only cheap but ignorant and in no way contributing to ele management. So, which is it...your personal position or a blanket statement? Several of us have said that we would hunt tuskless over ivory consistently as well as all of the PHs we know that hunt ele on a regular basis. Are we still cheap and ignorant? Again, just one more inconsistency of many.

Zambezi valley cows are not agressive? Show me someone who works there and agrees with you?

You have been told by a career biologist that you have little understanding of what is taking place here yet you continue to portray yourself as an expert that knows more than the rest of the safari industry. I personally do not consider myself to be an expert but I know a number of people who are and I feel the same that they do so I know I am in good company.

Clearly you have it all figured out and know more about it then the biologists, wildlife managers, Zim Parks and Zim PHs and culling officers. You really think that Richard Harland or Buzz or Ivan Carter or Graham Hingeston or Paul Grobler or any of the other highly experienced ele PHs will get on here and say that they agree with you? I know their position.

Yukon,You make a great case for your love of hunting cow elephant, and also for the fact that there are many people who do the same. It is true, as you say this type of hunting of ele, is more dangerous than hunting bulls, and the removable of tuskless cows takes 1/2 the gene pool away in produceing more tuskless elephant, but without ytakeing tuskless bulls as well, you have done nothing to solve the problem of tuskless elephants! It is also true that clients couldn't hunt the cows, tuskless or not, unless Safari co. offered those hunts, and many companies do offer it.

What I don't understand about your attitude with Steve is, your not understanding his "OPINION" that the wholesale hunting of cows, does have some detromental effect on elephant family dynamics.

On one end of your posts, you ask what is his experience in hunting cows, and because he doesn't hunt them, or offer it,BECAUSE of the effect on the dynamics on the family group, you say his opinion is not valid, because of lack of personal experience.

Then on the other end, you state YOUR position is valid because YOU have killed a couple of cows, and the rest of your OPINION, is based, not on personal experience, but on the opinion, of those who sell these hunts, and because they agree with you, they must be right.

What about all the game biologists who do not agree with your take, or opinion of those making money out of the activity, makes this somehow more valid. Who is more believable those who make money from the hunts, or those who find evidence that it is detromental, like the biologists, and those who who forgo the financial gain by not offering it, or doing it themselves?

As I said in the begining of this string, both views have merit! Both are legal, but it is simply hard headedness, to close your eyes on either side of this debate. Calling one side inexperienced, while the other side is LESS experienced. Not inexperienced in the shooting of, but in the years of long term liveing with these elephants, observing the effects, of both ways of hunting them, and liveing around those who study elephant behavior, full time, not visiting every couple of years.

My question to you is, why is HEARSAY (told to you by others)proof positive, on the side you agree with , but invalid on the side that disagrees with your opinion? After all if you haven't shot hundreds of ele,or even as many as Steve has, then your TRUTH is only OPINION, the same as it is with Steve.

You seem unwilling to accept any part of Steve's opinion, yet can't understand why anyone would disagree with your OPINION! Steve has said many times, his objection to the activity is personal, but allows others to do as they please! How much more consideration is he required give YOUR opinion?

Simple common sense will tell you, neither way can be completely without negative effect, and at the same time both can be beneficial to some degree, whether either agrees with your take on the subject completely, or not!

Taylor killed thousands of ele, anything that had ivory, do you, for one minute, think because he did it, that makes it sound conservation!

Some kill strictly for the money,or simply because, it is what they want to do,or both, like Taylor, and some forgo, the money, and the experience because they believe it is for the betterment of the species, like Steve.

Both are correct, as long as neither gets carried away with the activity! Neither is the only way, but both deserve consideration, IMO.
................ INCOMING!!!!!!

Mac

WELL SAID!

Currently licensed PHs that have killed over 1,000 elephants are almost all veterans of the Zimbabwe elephant culling program. I believe Gomez Adams has taken somewhere between 2 and 3,000 in his 4 years as part of the culling team. Barrie Duckworth is another that has spent a lot of time in elephant control work. There are probably more that I don't know about.

Steve you list some traits that only elephants have. You stated that only elephants can communicate? Come on, when your dog barks to be let out what is he doing? When a duck quacks at more ducks flying overhead what is she doing? Whales can also communicate over long distances and since water transmits sound better than air one day we may well be amazed at how long a distance they can communicate. You also say that only elephants have an awareness of death or the ability to mourn. My hunting dog knows the difference between a dead bird and a live bird or at least one that is moving or not moving. We have all read reports where elephants try to lift a dead comrade. Would they try to help a dead elephant to it's feet if they knew it was dead? Many species respond to a missing mate or comrade. You may call it mourning but that is putting human traits to animals and is called anthropomorphism. Biologically that is a no, no. Dogs commonly show that they miss a dead master by becoming quiet and sometimes whineing. They can miss someone or another known animal. Is that mourning? Humans due the same but they add memories of the past and a realization of what is lost in the future. Since we can't think like animals we don't know what they in fact think. When I take my old Labrador retriever hunting where we buried my old Lab he becomes quiet and sniffs the area where she was buried. We buried her 6 years ago. I suspect he recognizes the site and remembers that it was a place of not good memories but I don't know exactly why he reacts the way he does. I suspect elephants with their great memories also remember places where bad things happened as they remember places where good things happened such as finding water or delicious food. I think it is stretching things to say they "mourn". The correct way to describe these distances in behavioral terms is that "this stimulus caused this change in behavior". Not try to describe it in human terms. I have found that ant-hunters and non-hunters often become too emotionally attached to their study animals. Hell, I have even seen it happen to hunting biologists for their study animals. This leads to either an anti-hunting bias in their findings or less commonly a pro-hunting bias. The anti-hunters often resort to anthropomorphism to help sell their position. Ron Thompson is a good example of the other way. Here a pro-hunting wildlife manager (he was a manager and not a biologist) felt the only solution to tree damage in Hwange was to open the Park to sport hunting of bull elephants.

I never said that you were stupid or ignorant although by your definition of ignorant, it would pertain to your basic knowledge of biological principals and knowledge of other species. I prefer to believe you are not knowledgeable in these areas and that if you had a better background in the biological and wildlife management fields you would be smart enough to not make some of the statements that you have.

I have hunted elephants in Matetsi, Chete, Charisa and the Omay communal lands. I also saw quite a few elephants in the Dande North concession of the Zambezi Valley but didn't hunt them there so I have no opinion on how aggressive those elephants are. I did not get the impression that the elephants in Matetsi, Chete or Chharisa were overly aggressive. Although I was charged in both Charisa and Omay, except for two cow herds and one bull, they were not overly agressive.The cow we had to shoot in Omay was over 70 years old by Don Heath' estimation. She was born about the same time that Hitler came to power and survived the large scale shooting of elephants when the tsetse corridor fences were put up. She also survived the flooding of Lake Kariba. She may well have been one of the last of the fabled "Zambezi Ladies". She was very aggressive and came in to feed on crops in broad daylight. The locals tried to scare the herd from the fields but it was they that were run out of the fields by the old cow. She nearly caught a couple if the villagers stories are true. I suspect if had a metal detector we would have found she was carrying some bullets in her.

The elephant herds most famous for being aggressive include the small Addo population in SA, The Kali herd that lived on the coast of Tanzania and raided sugar cane fields, the Gonarezhou elephants of the Zim/SA border and the Zambezi ladies of the Kariba Gorge area of Zimbabwe also had the reputation of charging in mass. Ian Nyschen's in his book Months of the Sun well documents the how dangerous they were. Now any elephant can be dangerous so what we are talking about here are degrees of danger. All of the above herds were made this way by hunting by poachers or amateur hunters, leaving a lot of wounded animals. We all know the most dangerous animal is a wounded one. Doesn't it make sense that the more wounded animals you have in an area the more aggressive the elephants will be. Taylor spelled that out pretty clearly and I for one think he is right. Wounded animals will pass on their fear, aggression and aroused state to other animals. A herd will have some increased level of fear and that is exactly what the PAC program is designed to instill in them. The other areas I mentioned are hunted every year by sport hunters for bulls and for tuskless cows. In the Omay a limited number of tusked cows are also taken. Except by bow hunters few are wounded and lost. Yet these animals are not overly aggressive. All of the areas also have some level of poaching.

To sum up my opinion, I believe that the hunting program needs to be designed to accomplish the management goals of the responsible agency. In a National Park situation culling of herds may well be the best option. When handling PAC problems herd culling will probably not work and individual animal culling may well be the best option if scare tactics don't work. There is no single answer to managing elephants.

465H&H

465 H&H,

That's a great post!!

465,

Iinteresting pointS indeed. GA must have worked hard to rack up those figures. Working on the mid way figure of those you mention, it works out at 12 a week if he shoots every week of the year. - If he shoots for half the year, it works out at 24 a week. - But I certainly don't doubt the veracity of your statement.

Moving onto behaviour traits. I appreciate that dogs and other animals can and do make alarm calls etc as do birds but that is not what I meant by communication. I was referring to complicated communications over long distances. There have been many proven examples of this happening. To find some of this, you might like to read 'The Sound of Thunder' by Katy Payne. KP is the lady who first recognised this for what it was. - I've also seen examples of this personally with the 1st herd to be translocated from KNP to KZN.

You're quite right to say that anthropomorphism is a no-no in scientific study. I'd add that it's a no-no in ondinary life as well, and I actually hesitated to mention the thing about mourning and it's why I said, it's harder to prove. But again, many scientific Elephant studies do recognise this fact. Esp displayed in cows revisiting sites (year after year) where Elephants they knew have been killed. (See Elephant Memories and other works by Cynthia Moss)

I didn't mean to imply that you thought I was stupid or ignorant, I meant to imply that just because I don't hold a degree, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. (If you'll forgive the double negative). It was also meant to say that just because someone has a degree or a doctorate etc does know what they're talking about.

Your comments about the varying aggression levels in herds from different locations is a double edged sword. One of my intentions here is to question why this varies so much. (Another is to try to get at least a few hunters to read some relevant books!) As you say, the Addo Elephants are notoriously aggressive (and incidentally, shy) - These animals were hunted hard in years past and I wonder if this might be a factor in their behaviour. (Which is another of the points I'm trying to make) - KNP Elephants that have not been hunted (but have been scientifically culled by family unit) for many years are generally very placid. Again, I wonder if this might be a factor in their aggression levels?

I agree with some of what you say in your summary, but I feel that even with crop raiding Elephants there is often an argument for culling the entire family unit rather than taking individual animals. If you take individuals, you might and probably will solve the problem in the short term but the survivors will probably remember the easy meal and may well return at a later date. Take out the entire family unit and they won't return.

As you say, there is (I'll add the word 'usually')no single answer to Elephants, which is what makes them soooooo very interesting.

Slightly off topic, but one thing I have learned is that I've never seen a translocation that has been what I would call truly successful in the long term and culling is a far better option than translocation.

...........Boy lots of reading ...... Now it appears to me that we have quite a group dynamic that has developed here...,,,.,.,I think it is right for a person to feel the range of emotions they feel when they kill a walking thinking feeling animal ...That carries over to fish ect . in my book ....A hunter KILLS things ...He ,or she by and large purpose in their mind to go and completely destroy somethings day ...It is part of being a human being . Robert Roark apparantly cried when he killed a trophy elephant ..But just because someone has an emotional moment doesn,t necesasarily mean they should cease doing that thing or try to find the greater meaning in it all ..tho most do that .....Myself I Really enjoy KILLING predators ..the bigger the better ..I don,t give a single blow of snot what any one thinks about it either ......[best thing about the old days ,,] no cameras ..And people didn,t have to do so much to entertain themselves and so were more practicle about things like killing prides of lions and herds of elephants...Heck why does anyone think the 425 Westly Richards was made so it could be used with stripper clips .. That was someone who put his thinking cap on ......I think big bull elephants are some of God,s most amazeing animals........And if the opportunity arose for me to I would kill hundreds if not more of them ...Everyone I,ve know who has taken elephant , has pictures of all these people who just appear out of the bush when a really big animal is killed on safari....To me people are much more important than animals...And anyone here who has procreated has no bussiness telling anyone they can,t do the same and thereby depleat the habitat of the animals... ..To do so is gross eliteism ..........It would appear from his writeings that English Steve,is being true to that countries nature of bowing to the government to do the work ...Where Yk.Delta is takeing the Alaskan position of doing the job himself ..Talk about a group dynamic. ...If elephant family groups need to be killed as a bunch with 3 shooters or so then I see no reason things couldn,t be put together for a group of 3 non government employee hunters who are ready willing and able,to both pay and shoot . couldn,t go in and do the job ... If a game dept. required qualifications , I,m sure there are dozens of members here who could pass the Zim shooting PH course...and along with their Professional hunters go and crop a group / family / herd .,.,., .....Ought to do that with lions too ...........Oh and Robert Service couldn,t even spell so I wouldn,t quote him .,.,. I,m just jokeing about that ..Barge , in reality Berge ,Marge .in reality merge ...I know I,ve been there..

First of all I want to say what a pleasure it is to have a difference of opinion with someone on AR and not have it degenerate into a series of viscous personal attacks. Too bad this isn't more common on AR.

I will limit this post to my opinions on the use of different culling methods for crop raiding problems on communal lands.

1. There isn't much argument that whole herd culling causes the least disturbance to other herds in the culling area. I do wonder though if the small amount of disturbance caused by killing one animal form a raiding herd isn't more desirable than the taking out of anywhere from 5 to 30 elephants in a herd cull where population control isn't necessary or desirable from a population management perspective. Let's say that we take out a cow herd of 30 elephants. Twenty of those are adult breeding age cows and the rest are sub-adults. Either they are young bulls, calves or sub-adult females. A reduction of 7 to 10% of the adult cows in a herd will stabilize a population growth. That means such a cull will stabilize population growth of a population with 200 to 300 adult cows in it. The 7% figure is probably closer to max then 10% and that assumes a healthy survival rate of calves to adult breeding age. What do we do when the next group of cows from this population come raiding?
Potentially you could wipe out a sizeable elephant population using this method.

2. One must consider the economics of using a particular method to handle crop raiders. The entire herd culling method requires the use of at least three trained professional culling person ell. They will need to be paid. Sorry Gumboot but there is no place for armatures in entire herd culling. It is too dangerous and only experienced and highly trained elephant hunters should be used. In Park culling an airplane is used to locate a target herd and the culling team is directed in for the cull. This is a very efficient method but will not work in a PAC situation as you need to locate a herd of raiding animals and then follow them out until contact is made. From my experience you will find them in a suitable place for a kill in one out of three times. About half the time the team will not be able to get a vehicle to the kill site because of the mountainous terrain. This means more time and cost per herd contact. If you can't get a vehicle in to the kill site you have to count on the local villagers to carry out the hides, tusks and meat. In my experience in the Omay about 50 to 100 villagers from nearby villages show up at the kill site. They can handle one or two elephants. It would take many more to handle 30. They would have to be trucked to the nearest access site adding more time and cost to the project. All in it would cost a lot more per elephant killed in the Omay then what it cost to harvest an elephant in a Pars scenario. Who pays for this? The tribal council? National Parks. There would be no foreign currency brought in to the CAMPFIRE program.

3. The current system used to handle PAC elephants in the South Omay is not a very efficient system. Tribal policy is that only one elephant can be killed out of each raiding herd. During the hay day of crop damage control in East Africa it was found that shooting one animal from a herd merely moved the herd a few miles where they found another field to raid. To dissuade them from raiding they felt that they needed to kill 10 to 20% of the herd. It didn't make any difference what the age or sex of the animals were. I have finally come to the conclusion that the tribal council really doesn't want to stop the raiding of crops. If they stop the raiding then they no longer get the hard currency from visiting hunters. That is about their only source of hard currency to accomplish the needed infrastructure improvements. They get hard cash from the trophy fees and concession fees from the Safari operator, locals are hired by the Safari firm to work on roads and in the camp and the Safari operator contributes person ell, money and equipment to the anti-poaching teams. This way the money keeps flowing in, crop damage is held to an acceptable level (at least in the councils opinion if not the individual farmers and needed protein is supplied to the locals in the form of elephant meat. I doubt that the tribal council would accept any method that significantly reduces the level of crop damage.


One of these days I hope to meet up with Shakari and spend an evening tipping a few and telling a bunch of hunting lies, err! stories.

465H&H

465H&H

I absolutely agree with you that it's such a refreshing change to have an enjoyable debate that stays civilised and avoids ridiculous personal attacks.

I have to say that there is very little in your most recent post that I diagree with and what there is, isn't really important.... for example, you say that a culling team is made up of at least 3 shooters and from my experience it's no more than 3 shooters..... so as I say, nothing really important. As for the disposal of the meat when culling a herd, my approach to that would be the locals can take as much as they like and as much as they can eat and/or preserve..... after that what happens to the remaining meat is irrelevant..... even the hyenas, Lions and vultures have to eat...... but maybe, by attidude is swayed by my hunting in the Selous for so many years where there is no resident human population....... Other than those points and the simple fact that I still don't like individual cows to be taken from a family unit, we're in agreement.

Sharing a campfire, a few drinks and some stimulation conversation sounds good to me too.

........465 ., and everyone ...thanks for the comments and insights / hard won knowledge .........................Undoubtedly for the average safarri client it would be too dangerous to have to , think fast under pressure, hit thier target, Know when to run and when to shoot . and how to work as a team with 4 or 5 other people .....Biggest problem is by the time most people have enough money to do this they have lost their aggression .,.,.,There are a number of posters on here that could be formed into a good crew ,., with very little work ....I,m not talking about some reality tv show foolishness ....,., just some men who choose to go do something right and well without any fan fare...,.,.,..................And are willing to take the risks that if they get the big squish ,., oh well die and learn ..That would be one of those examples of how Not to do something ... ......Not trying to pick an arguement , but I KNOW that crews could be made up who would work probably as good as anyone ......There are a tremendous amount of really amazeing people who regularly do many things more dangerous than cropping elephants ..... .I,m not saying that anyone can be a Mike LaGrange ,.,., just that the job can get done with a more positive cash flow by doing a bit of tweaking .....,.,.,