The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Greetings from the TSA!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Greetings from the TSA! | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
I noticed the race referance as well. As a white guy who has seen some negative impact of affirmative action in my workplace (medicine) it probably made me question the individual's competence more than a little bit. That's unfortunate, in that a program designed to eliminate racial bias fosters it. Unintended conequences. Bull1 has changed his wording, and hopefully this will not deteriorate into a race issue. Thanks, Marc, for pointing it out. I love the idea of involving your congressman's or Senator's office. Those guys actually will go to bat for you, and can exhert some pressure. I grew up in Minnesota, and many families will tell you how Hubert Humphrey's office solved a problem for them. No one in those families ever voted for ayone else, ever again, until the day he died. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have flown to Africa and back 6 or so times since 9/11 and have never put "another" unloaded firearms tag in my bag upon entering the USA and transfering luggage to my domestic flight. Never even heard of doing this prior to this post. The "original" tag upon leaving the USA is always still in the case when returning. Never had anyone ask, tell or suggest that a "new" one is needed to continue my travels in the USA. In Atlanta, Chicago, DC and Denver simply cleared Customs, sometimes they looked in my gun case, sometimes not. Proceeded to hand off my luggage, gun case included to the Staff and proceeded through Security and off to my outbound gate. Last year coming back through Dulles, Customs people did want to have a look in the gun case, a quick check and they waved me on assuring me the gun case would be forwarded to my next flight. It was. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
Larry you are pointing out the hugh discrepency in the way travel inspections are handled from airport to airport no two are alike. Last week comming out of Orlando the TSA inspector made me remove a copper bracelet but allowed 3 rings to remain on my fingers, I guess it would be bad to explode a bracelet but not a ring, eh.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
The above is also my experience in returning from Africa with firearms. I have never been informed that a recheck upon entering the US is necessary. I have declared that I had firearms and that they were unloaded in Harare or Bulawayo. After going through customs I usually tell the recheck agent that I have firearms and have never had the agent have a TSA agent again check my firearms as they did on my initial check in. Zim agents do not require a red tag be included. TSA needs to get the word out if a recheck is required. They can't expect us to follow a law if they don't let you know it is required. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Over the course of 7 trips to Afria I've had to reclaim my bags each time I returned to the states before connecting to a local flight, but I've only had to fill out a firearm declaration form twice, and TSA has inspected my guncase only once. Inconsistency? You bet. 114-R10David | |||
|
| One of Us |
465H&H, how can they let you know as they don't know themselves. As stated before I find each airport and theTSA agents there have different requirements i e what they check for. If the free market operated like the government (all branches) we would still be swinging from the trees. OH my God did I say that, you betchum. | |||
|
| one of us |
What next? Just anything to screw us up. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Maybe not when your ability to own or fly with firearms is on the line. 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
I agree, but it works for most everything else at home. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Having traveled through that particular airport dozens of times I'd have to say that his description is absolutely germane to the sequence of events in this incident. Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thanks bull1 for the response. Sincerely, no hard feelings. Good luck with everything. | |||
|
One of Us |
The whole issue here is related to the lack of an unloaded firearms declaration tag filled out and signed and placed inside the gun case after returning abroad and before the flight on to another destination here in the U. S. It is not related in any way as to whether or not TSA is required to inspect every gun case. They are not required to inspect every gun case, and I have had my gun case, on occasion, never ever open and inspected. In this instance, his gun case was opened for inspection and the requisite unloaded firearms declaration tag that needed to be filled out, signed and placed in the gun case upon return from abroad was not there when TSA inspected it. | |||
|
| one of us |
Typically, an airline flying you from Amsterdam to the U.S. would have required the signed "unloaded" statement in the gun case before accepting the gun as baggage. Which airline were you on from Amsrterdam to IAH? Why wasn't the declaration tag already in the case? BTW: IAH = BUSH Intercontinetal Airport. Why aren't we blaming Bush instead of Obama?  | |||
|
One of Us |
Cause Obama is an idiot and Bush is not!!!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've found that going outbound on the same carrier that I arrived on, the firearm is just cleared and rechecked and off you go. If you have to board another carrier, it is your responsibility to declare the weapon again. The airport/airline employee misinformed you. Everytime I have boarded a flight with either a rifle encased or a handgun in checked baggage, TSA has inspected it. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The only time that I have been required to have a current firearms declaration tag in the rifle case is when in the U.S. and of course when flying out of the U.S. It is not an international regulation, nor is it required by any international airline. As you know, you cannot book your luggage, including your gun case, straight through to your final U.S.destination when coming in on an international flight, as you are still required to pick up your luggage and your gun case, and clear customs every single time that you enter into the United States That is when you are required to obtain a new firearms declaration tag, fill it out and sign it. That is when you again declare the status of your firearms to the domestic airlines, who then must then send the firearms on to TSA in order for them to determine if they wish to inspect it and have you open the rifle case.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Why is this germane? I have been through IAH a million times; I am in Texas right now. I can't understand why you would think this is germane. | |||
|
| one of us |
On the 4 trips to Africa that I have taken my own rifles between 2001 and 2009 I have: a) ALWAYS checked my bags including rifles to my final destination - both departing the USA and returning. b) NEVER been required to re-declare or be reinspected by the airline at the transition from international to domestic flights. In both Atlanta and at Dulles you do not leave the secured area prior to sending your bags along to the final destination. In 2009 at Dulles TSA did ask that we stand-by while our bags were X-rayed again, but they were never opened or inspected. We never were in contact with any airline ticket agents in the transition process. Les | |||
|
| One of Us |
LHowell: My experience has been very different from yours. In every instance where I have returned from hunting Africa (7 Safaris), I have been required, after first passing through immigration, to then pick up my bags, including my firearms case, before proceeding to customs. The customs officers have then always asked me if I am carrying firearms, which you are required to declare. I have then been directed to the specific customs area for firearms inspection(i.e. for the 4457 inspection and match up with the rifles) I have subsequently been directed to the luggage recheck area where, before they will recheck the gun case for the domestic flight, they have always required me to open my gun case and fill out and sign a new firearms declaration card, before they will send the gun case through recheck and on to the domestic flight. I then have proceeded to my boarding area. I have never ever had my bags sent directly on to the domestic flight without clearing customs and without have my firearms inspected and the new declaration card placed in my gun case at recheck. This has been the same procedure for me in Atlanta, Dulles and Detroit. | |||
|
One of Us |
If affirmative action can allow the odd person to be promoted early, just think how many competent people were suppressed for centuries by your non-PC system and how many incompetent non-blacks got undeserved preferential privileges for generations and still do today. Just think of the institutionalised prejudices and attitudes that have entrenched themselves in your society! Just imagine how many generations were robbed of their rights. And the many generations that did the robbing. Also think about this - would so many people and their wider families be in the privileged position that they are in right now if these generations of people were not robbed of their rights and this prejudiced attitude did not continue even today? What is so PC about that? How much of training do these people who perpetuate these generational prejudices get in the so-called PC world about treating people of all races as equals? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
One of Us |
+1! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nakihunter if you are a true Kiwi and not a transplant what do you know about the real deal in this country? | |||
|
| One of Us |
The man was complying with instructions from a person paid to get people through the system. SHE failed to provide proper assistance. Our traveling hunter has no fault here in any reasonable persons eyes IMHO! Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
|
| one of us |
Not sure that will fly, although I sympathize with the position. There are multiple agencies here and (I suspect) that the TSA does not care what airline employees do. In this case, the airline employee violated her own rules, which have been in place long before 9/11. In addition, how many complaints have been recorded on this forum about airline employees not knowing the rules of their own airlines? Quite a few I believe. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bottom line is that TSA opened a gun case that had a firearm or firearms in it, and found that it did not contain a declarations card and signature as is required by federal law. You can point your finger to the airline employee, but TSA will say that the hunter should have known that a current declarations card for that firearm should have been requested, filled out, signed and placed in the gun case, as the TSA looks at these things with a zero tolerance policy. | |||
|
| one of us |
I believe people of all races should be treated equally, to the abilities of each person. Unfortunately humans are not equal across the board, irregardless of race. The flawed logic of giving preferential treatment to compensate for perceived injustices of the past based on skin color is irrational and counterproductive, often causing more problems and hatred than it remedies. | |||
|
one of us |
Can you point out that requirement on the TSA Firearms page? Traveling with Special Items I understand it has to be declared, but is the declaration card listed somewhere else? ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
|
One of Us |
twelve minutes to blame the marxist? We must have been asleep at the switch, but at least we were a minute faster than the marxist-defender/Bush Derangement Syndrome lemmings...jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
Same for me UEG, although when coming home right after 9/11 (I got stuck in RSA and diverted to Frankfurt then Atlanta) The Customs agents waive me right through and didn't even look at the guns. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
As stated before, EVERY domestic airline requires a firearms declaration card to be filled out and signed, and placed in your gun case BEFORE they will allow it to be checked as baggage. Look familiar? I believe that the federal regulations that require the declarations card are printed on the card itself. Take a look here at the Delta Card. Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations deals with the Transportation Security Regulations. According to bull1 he was cited for violating 49 CFR, section 1540.111(c). So, there you have it folks. :   Take a look at this cite and read it. http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/t...49/49-9.1.3.5.8.html That IS the law. And, it is federal law. | |||
|
| one of us |
So is it an airline rule or a TSA rule? I gave the link to the TSA page which does not mention it. Here is the CFR section on firearms carriage:
Where is the card requirement? Yes, it must be declared orally or in writing, no doubt about that. And it must be unloaded, no doubt there Edit: I am not giving anyone legal advice here, just curious about the requirement... ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
|
| One of Us |
Charles: CFR stands for Code of Federal Regulations. It is a Federal Regulation. And, Title 49 deals with Transportation Security Regulations. Transportation Security Regulations are enforced by the Transportation Security Administration. The TSA does not, itself, require the card to be filled out in their presence, but requires each airline to have the passenger fill it out and sign it. But, the TSA enforces the Federal Regulation dealing with the firearms declaration card. Thus, if TSA inspects your gun case and the card is missing they cite you for it. As to whether or not the specific airline is also cited or punished, that I don't know. If you noticed, most declaration cards are bright orange/red (Southwest Airlines is the only one that I know of that isn't-there may be some others). But all of them refer or cite to the federal regulation and require your signature. The requirement on the declarations card that is enforced by the TSA is found in the section that my link referred to, and in yours which you have pasted, that says that the passenger must declare the firearms to be unloaded, orally or in writing. That is why the declaration card is required. The only way that the TSA would know in you personally declared the firearm to be in compliance with the federal regulations is if you had something in writing with your signature. Notice that most cards have an initials area too, and that is where the airline employee usually places their initials to confirm that they had you fill out the declarations card in their presence and that you so declared the firearm to be unloaded. Usually they will verbally ask you as they give you the card. On a number of occasions I have had to take the firearms out and show them that they are unloaded. I don't like doing that(taking them out) as it seems to widen the eyes of passengers standing at the ticket counter.  | |||
|
One of Us |
Havent read the whole thread, but I think there is a lot more DELIBERATE interverance than we realize. I had 2 seperate guys lose their guns for 10 months approx each. the guns were inspected and checked in. . . only to be found in some DELTA warehouse somewhere long after the trophies are back. I have had interverance where scope mounts had been loosened (scope fell off at the shooting range on the first shot!!)the same group had 3 rifles where the elevation had been turned to the point where the scopes could not be set in we had to try and purchase 3 rifle scopes for the group? coincidence in a 2 year period? not sure what advise to give guys either? dave Dave Davenport Outfitters license HC22/2012EC Pro Hunters license PH74/2012EC www.leopardsvalley.co.za dave@leopardsvalley.co.za +27 42 24 61388 HUNT AFRICA WHILE YOU STILL CAN Follow us on FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/#!/leopardsvalley.safaris | |||
|
| one of us |
Thanks, but I know what CFR stands for. Just for my edification, can you cite this section of the regulations? And then show where it is the traveler's violation if the airline does not get them to do it? Or are we still talking about the declaration requirement which specifically says it can be oral? If you tell the airline that you are checking in an unloaded firearm, and they do not require a card, which TSA rule applicable to a passenger are you violating? Based on the posts above it seems pretty common for airlines to skip requiring a card. I am not trying to stir up trouble, but you have taken a strong position that a member here is in the wrong even if he declared the firearm.
Thanks. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have never had an airlines skip the declaration card requirement when I have orally declared my firearms to them at check in. Never. I have flown on Delta, Continental, Southwest, United, Northwest, American, Alaska, and U.S. Airways. So, I'm not the right one to ask about airlines that don't require the declarations card, sorry. I figured that you knew what the Code of Federal Regulations was, but some of the others may not have, thus my detailed explanation. I don't know if you could cite this section and say, "Hey, I did verbally declare it, and no one asked me to fill out anthing?" I guess you could, but I don't think that it would get you very far, as how are you going to prove that you did so without the card? It then becomes a "he said-she said". Thus the reason that all airlines have the cards in conformity with the federal requlations. I have, on occasion, reminded the ticket counter employee that I needed to fill out the declarations card and place it in the gun case, to which they have acknowleged it. Never has any airline employee said to me that I didn't have to fill out a declarations card. Maybe bull 1 was dealing with someone who had never dealt with a traveling firearms case, who knows? And he said that he was very tired. I have taken the position here on this AR post that every airline that I have ever dealt with, regarding firearms, has required the declaration card and my signature, period. And, I have taken that position to ensure that no one else here on AR would not think to fill out and sign the declarations card, or ask where the card is if an airline employee or any airport employee at recheck has a brain fart and forgets. I am of the personal opinion, that if you don't ask or remind them, then there is no proof, without a current declarations card in your gun case, that you ever declared your firearms as unloaded, verbally, written, or otherwise. Avoiding trouble, especially in an airport with people who, for the most part, don't like hunters and guns, and where I am headed hundreds, if not thousands of miles away to enjoy what I enjoy best, is a very significant and important thing to me. | |||
|
| new member |
bull1: When you speak with the TSA attorney perhaps you should ask them to explain the violation. According to CFR 1540.111(c) the required declaration may be “either orally or in writing” From : http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/.../49cfrv9_02.tpl#1200 Title 49: Transportation CHAPTER XII--TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SUBCHAPTER C--CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY PART 1540—CIVIL AVIATION SECURITY: GENERAL RULES Subpart B—Responsibilities of Passengers and Other Individuals and Persons § 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals. (c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter: (1) Any loaded firearm(s). (2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— (i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded; (ii) The firearm is unloaded; (iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and (iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination. Airline requirement to obtain that declaration from you is the same: PART 1544—AIRCRAFT OPERATOR SECURITY: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS Subpart C—Operations § 1544.203 Acceptance and screening of checked baggage. f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage: (1) Any loaded firearm(s). (2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless— (i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded; (ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; (iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and (iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment. Good Luck | |||
|
| one of us |
I have had to talk airline personel through the process more than once. The issue here isnt what should be done but should the traveler be held liable if the airlines dont do what they should. What can and should happen are often a far cry from the reallity. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
|
| One of Us |
Maybe I am missing something here but?: 1) I have always filled out, signed and placed the firearms unloaded tag in my guncase when leaving the Country by air. 2) I have NEVER filled out, signed and placed "another" firearms unloaded tag in my guncase upon arrival back into the Country. Question: Where in Heavens Name would you even be able to get ahold of this tag when coming back in? Upon arrival you pick up all your luggage, proceed through Customs, then hand off your luggage to airport personel for the continuing Domestic flight, clear Security and then proceed to your Domestic flight gate. I thought the problem that was of concern here was manifested upon arriving back into the Country? Right? Wrong? As I said may have just read it wrong. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
Larry: Yes, the problem was upon bull 1's arrival back in the country and the lack of a new and current firarms declaration tag being filled out, signed and placed in his gun case AFTER coming back into the country. You get the new firearms declaration tag when you recheck your gun case after coming through customs and as you hand off and they take your luggage and your gun case again and run it through the machines and their system. (The airport personnel) They have always had me fill one out there, open the case, put it in and lock it. They then put the case through their machine and on the way to the domestic flight. If you've not done it you better start asking for the card and do it, as many more of you may be having the same story to tell and the same citation to face in the future.  | |||
|
One of Us |
I had a problem with the declaration card in Frankfurt. They didn't have me put one in the case in Windhoek, they couldn't take me to the gun case and they couldn't bring the gun to me. I was very concerned. I recommended having me sign a card and then they could tape to the outside in an envelope. Instead, I was told the sent a teletype to Cincy to tell them a gun was inbound. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia