First a little background information. I hunted in Tanzania from September 2 - 12 September 2009. This was my fifth safari and the third to Tanzania. The previous two trips were to the Selous but, this trip consisted of a 10-day buffalo hunt in the Tunduru safari area.

The name of the safari company or the PH is not important. However, we hunted hard for ten days but I did not shoot a buffalo. That was my choice, combined with difficult terrain and buffalo that had been harassed by locals and poachers. There were other issues involved that I will not get in to as they do not have any relevance to the post.

Anyway, we flew back to Dar es Salaam on Sunday the 13th of September and caught the flight back to Amsterdam on Monday night, the 14th of September at 11:40 pm. After landing in Amsterdam the next morning, we finally boarded a flight to Houston, TX. We arrived there at around 1:30 pm and proceeded to US Customs.

Now, this is where it gets interesting.

After clearing customs, I took possession of my luggage and locked gun case and proceeded to the Continental booking agent. As quickly as I cleared the customs area I saw a IAH "supervisor/employee" who asked me where I needed to go. I told her I had just cleared customs and was looking for the Continental booking agent to recheck my luggage and continue my trip to Charlotte. She told me to follow her, which I did. When we reached the booking area desk, she instructed me give my gun case to a baggage handler behind the desk.

The baggage handler told her the gun case needed to be checked. She instructed him again, to load it on the plane, which he did. I then proceeded to rebook my flight and report to the departure gate. I was there for about one and one-half hours. Approximately 25 minutes before departure I was summoned to the ticket counter where I was greeted by an airport employee. He informed me that he had been notified by TSA that I needed to return to Terminal C and explain to them how my gun case was being loaded onto a flight before being inspected by TSA. He told me I would miss my flight but that he would personally rebook me on a later flight to Charlotte.

I returned to Terminal C and went straight to a uniformed police officer and told him who I was and what was going on, He escorted me to a secluded area in the terminal where I was met by a TSA inspector and three more airport security employees. The TSA agent had my gun case, with the padlocks already cut off. He asked me to open the gun case (apparently, he had not yet done so) which I did. I inspected the items inside and signed a firearms declaration document. The TSA agent then sealed the case with TSA locks as I explained what had happened to the group of security personnel assembled there. Everyone seemed satisfied especially, after I explained that I was a retired law enforcement officer and that I completely in agreement with what actions they had taken.

I was then allowed to return to Terminal E and caught another flight to Charlotte, two hours later. My gun case and all my luggage arrived with me and I went on my way.

Admittedly, I should have recognized the fact that TSA had not reinspected the gun case at IAH but, after going sleepless for almost 36 hours on the return trip, I was just following instructions when I was told to give my gun case to the baggage handler by the "supervisor".

I thought everything was over and done, until today when I went to the mailbox. I received a "Notice of Violation" indicating I was being assessed a fine of $500.00 for "presenting 1 (one) undeclared and unloaded firearm" for inspection. This was in violation of C.F.R. 1540.111 (c) of the Transportation Security Regulations.

You can imagine my surprise and displeasure with this notification. They list five options for handling this situation, one of which is by paying $250.00 "in an effort to resolve this matter fairly and quickly". I am pondering which way to handle this situation but, paying the $250.00 or $500.00 fine is certainly not an option I will be choosing.

I have flown with firearms many, many times, both before and after 9/11 and this is the first time I have ever had a problem.

Bull1

current government SOP - if we can't tax you, we'll fee you, if we can't fee you we'll fine you, just be assured that we will find a way to squeeze the last cent out of you

Thanks, for the info, I had my guns and ammo boarded in Pittsburgh last fall about the same time without the TSA looking inside either case, which I thought odd. From now on I will insist the TSA office inspect the firearms and ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
current government SOP - if we can't tax you, we'll fee you, if we can't fee you we'll fine you, just be assured that we will find a way to squeeze the last cent out of you

Hell, they have to make up that budget deficit on the budget that Obama just presented somehow.

Sounds like here is the situation. When you had it re-checked it sounds like you did not fill out and sign a tag declaring that the gun was unloaded and declaring it to the airlines. That was also the mistake of the airline agent in not having you do that, but in just sending it on it's way without that card inside. However, the TSA, in my estimation, violated the federal regulations by placing their own TSA locks on your gun case, and by not giving you sufficient time to return to the check-in area and allow you to open the gun case before they cut the lock off. Now, whether that will help you or not with your matter is another issue. Moreover, once you had turned your gun case over to the airlines, it would have been their responsibility, not yours, to send it on to TSA for inspection. That is not something that you do on your own. Did the lady at the counter know that you had firearms in the case? Had you declared it to her before she took possession of it? That is an important question to know the answer to.

quote:

Hell, they have to make up that budget deficit on the budget that Obama just presented somehow.

Interesting! It took 12 minutes to blame Obama. Wonderful!
Now let's find out what should have happened. Was it known to be a gun case? I believe the airline employees should have been told that there was a firearm in the case. It sounds like this was not done.
Peter.

I wonder why it took so long as well.

Fight the charge. I fought a similar charge at Anchorage airport. The TSA people there were absolutely incompetent. The charge was dropped.

When I flew back from Zim, I landed in Atlanta. After going through all the customs, immigration and USFWS checks, I went directly to the United desk (at their direction) and checked my firearms in with them. There was no additional TSA check at this time.

465H&H

quote:

Interesting! It took 12 minutes to blame Obama. Wonderful!

If I have a flat tire...I immediately think of Obama. It just seems natural!!!

quote:

I wonder why it took so long as well.

Pray tell who is an

quote:

IAH supervisor/employee

Is this person of some authority?
Sincerely,

The real problem is the time and cost to fight the fine. It's kinda like a red light camera ticket in a sense. You may be in the right, but is the time and hassle worth it. I'd do it just to push back and not get pushed around, but that probably wouldn't be a rationale economic decision.

LWD

One of the options I was given was to discuss the allegations "informally" with a TSA attorney. This will be my first step. The next step would be to appear before an Administrative Law Judge (in Arlington, VA) to formally present evidence in my defense. At this time, I feel confident I can handle this allegation successfully on my own, If this does not work, I do have some connections I can call on. But, first, I'm going to do it their way. I'll advise the outcome. Keep your fingers crossed for a favorable outcome.

Bull1

IAH Supervisor/Employee.

IAH = What?

BigFiveJack,

IAH is the airline abbreviation for the Bush Intercontinental airport in Houston.

The supervisor/employee was a black female with a walkie-talkie who was "assisting" passengers with finding their way through the Customs process and on to the rebooking areas.

Had she not intervened, I would have probably been alright and wouldn't have been in this situation now! Obviously, she was more of an employee than a supervisor.

Bull1

Personally, I'd pay the $250, grit my teeth, and move along.

In this case, the cost of being right or the cost of proving a point are huge compared to the quick $250 payment option.

Pay today, live to fight again.

You need to check and see in what way your future will be impacted by being found guilty, or by just paying the $250.00.

It may effect future travel with a firearm.... or even future gun purchases by you...

It may put you on some sort of Federal List...

It seems to me that just paying the fine would be the easiest solution. I would try the informal route first. If you did not declare the weapon as required not much to argue. I agree that had the employee not intervened you wouldnt be in this situation. I would voice a complaint of that nature. Is just paying the fine considered an acknowledgement of guilt or is it a no contest plea? Second question is are there future ramifications to your travels by doing so? It is unfortunate that the airline people do not know the requirments. It is even more so that you got caught up in this because of it. Good luck and please keep us informed.

Mike Smith,

I have traveled with firearms since that occasion and have also purchased another long gun. No problem either time. Yeah, I can pay the fine but, I'm not going to do it without getting my say. Respectfully, of course.

I did tell the supervisor I had a firearm and it was in a Browning Travel Vault. The baggage handler recognized it for what it was and told her it needed to be inspected by TSA but, she told him it had already been checked by Customs and directed him to "load it on the plane".

Bull1

I think you have a good argument. The problem comes in the degree of proof that may be needed. Glad to hear you have not had any problems as of yet in your other travels and weapons purchases. I would fight this if it were me just because of my own personal sense of right and wrong. That dosnt mean it would necesarrily be the cheapest or even wisest route. When it comes to either the govt. or the law the one thing I have learned is being right dosnt mean a thing.

one of the cool things about having a cell phone like my new 3GS is that ten minutes of video capability. When you get stopped, just ask if they mind being videotaped to prevent future "confusion" should an incident arise. Most of them are scared shitless about lawsuits and losing that fat cushy job. Document everything and get names.

Rich

I find the notion of paying a fine and moving on repugnant. I'm used to people trying to shake me down for "a soft drink" at Joberg, but dammit this is supposed to be America! Maybe being squeezed for cash by our public servants is just the price we have to pay to live in a free country.

quote:

You need to check and see in what way your future will be impacted by being found guilty, or by just paying the $250.00.

It may effect future travel with a firearm.... or even future gun purchases by you...

It may put you on some sort of Federal List...

I'd make sure this is civil and not a Federal misdemeanor involving a firearm. Be careful of it. It just has trouble written all over it.

What all of this today has come to resemble reminds me of a saying I heard many, many years ago about the legal system in the Soviet Union. It was described as "powerful and slippery".

I guess one thing that really pisses me off is why no one told me I may be contacted at a later date regarding some type of alleged violation. Now, four and one-half months later, I get a letter in the mail. Then, on top of that, if I want to talk to someone face to face, I have to go to Arlington, VA. As I said in the first post, I have other avenues to pursue but I'll hold that until a last resort. I'm sure if I do get out of it, I'll get a full screening job each time I fly maybe even the finger-wave! Even if I pay the fine, I'll probably face more scrutiny.

Bull1

You may have a valid argument. However, the real issue, as I see it, is that you did not sign and place the required unloaded firearms tag in the gun case upon arriving in the United States and before you flew on to your final U.S. destination. As you know, your firearms are only checked to your arriving destination in the United States and you are required, as part of the re-check, to declare your firearms again and fill out and sign the tag to go in your gun case. Unfortunately, it appears that the woman helping you did not realize that either and that is what lead to this citation. TSA may be willing to work with you on it, as you declared the firearms to the woman employee, but she did not tell you to fill out the tag and place it in your gun case. Or, they may tell you that you knew or should have known that. It's a 50/50 situation. I wish you good luck and hope that it turns out favorably for you. Keep us posted on the outcome.

450 No 2 and Shack raise the important issue(s).
Do not treat this matter lightly. The result could, among other things, prohibit you from ever traveling with a firearm in the future.

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/...Guidancev1.12.07.pdf

TSA Sanction Guide link above.

I've spent a small amount of time trying to determine if there is any prejudice that attaches or if you will be "listed" as a result of paying the civil penalty. I've not found anything (YET), but that would be an easy question for a transportation and aviation attorney (surely there's one in Charlotte).

The TSA guidelines list mitigating and aggrivating factors to consider in each case and allow TSA attoneys to withdraw notices of violations, reduce fines, and issue formal and informal warnings. It also appears you can talk to a TSA atty in person, on the phone, or you can write it out and mail it in.

Good luck and let us know how it comes out.

I have flown with a firearm several times and have only ever had the airline counter person give me the form to sign declaring that the firearm is unloaded, put it into my gun case, I locked the case back up, checked it as baggage and went on my way. I have never had a TSA agent come over to inspect my firearm. Have I been lucky or are they (TSA) required to inspect each and every firearm?

Since 1996 I've flown with firearms 10+ times. I was in RSA on 9-11 and remember what it was like to return to the USA with firearms a couple weeks later. I've had my share of gun issues in Argentina, Africa, Canada, Australia, and Texas.

All of these experiences plus this post remind me why I will rent firearms whenever possible wherever I'm going next. Flame me all you want but I just don't need all this drama and distraction.

If you pay the fine that is admission of guilt...they may put you on a no-fly list. They may bar you from future travel with firearms. So be careful and talk to an attorney before you pay the fine.

bull1: Interesting story. Why did you feel the need to mention the race of the IAH supervisor/employee? What does the fact that she is Black have anything to do with what happened to you?

I re-read your post one more time just to be certain. You didn't mention the race nor ethnicity of any of the other airline personnel, except the IAH female supervisor/employee.

Since airport management and staff hiring/promotions are weighted by affirmative action, race and sex of the person responsible for a security violation may be relevant, pointing to problems in training or accelerated promotions, even if not popular in this PC world.

Link to Avjobs.com overview of airport management jobs with repeated references to affirmative action in airport hiring-
http://www.avjobs.com/careers/detail.asp?RecID=65

Oh Boy here we go! He also said the supervisor was female, I guess that is sexists. Basically he should have said the person in question was incompetent and one should not trust any employee in any airport. This is especially true of the TSA employees i ei stupid! Oh yea I guess it is the system not the people handling the job, because we can not offend anyone.

Unless you have a lot of free time and/or this causes other issues, just pay it. Not worth the trouble. I would be madder than hell but that is what I would do.

Couple of options:
Pay
Fight (Alone)
Fight (with lawyer)
CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN!!! They Love this stuff. He/she will jump all over it.
http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtml

You will be surprised, trust me, it works and it's free.

I didn't even notice race/sex when I read the post the first time.

Mark, my apologies if I offended you or anyone else on the forum. I have changed the wording of my post to more appropriately reflect the status of the person who was attempting to "help" me.

This is not about race and I shouldn't have made it appear that way. It is about employee incompetence and why we should always be vigilant when we are traveling with firearms. We should not depend on airline personnel to have our best interest at heart. I don't know if this employee actually understood what she was doing. It was obvious I had a gun case. I told her I had to recheck my luggage, including my gun case. The gun case was the only item of my luggage she instructed me to hand over to the baggage handler. The other pieces were placed on the scales at the ticket check-in counter.

I wrote the post within minutes of reading the NOV from TSA and, in hindsight, should have waited until I cooled off a little before putting my hands on the keyboard. However, I do feel the gender and possibly the race of the person "helping" me had something to do with what happened. No, I am not blameless in this situation. I just feel there are issues that need to be considered before a final judgement is rendered. I have requested a telephone interview with a TSA attorney to tell my side of the incident and hopefully that will clear up the situation.

Use Enough Gun, you are right, I did not sign the required declaration. Legally, I am wrong
and I know that. Ignorance of the law is no excuse but I feel there are extenuating circumstances that led to this situation. Hopefully TSA will take the entire situation into consideration before deciding to assess the fine. I may end up paying the fine but, not until I have exhausted all legal avenues to bring this incident to a successful conclusion.

Bull1

I too noticed the "black female" in the original post. This is not about political correctness but about accomplishing one objective, which in this case is not paying the fine and not having any "stain" on ones record. What if he had said "frigging Jew" and the person hearing his appeal was Jewish? Would this enamor him? I think not. Bull has calmed down and should be on the road to getting this fine reversed. Good luck!
Peter.

You can't be politically correct enough in todays world, maybe that will change some day. By the way stop using the term Redneck or hillbilly or cracker etc!