Sir,

I don’t believe my failed attempt at saving 100 deer (killed with rimfire rifles) changed the law. Whitetail deer, wild or captive, still fall under the statute.

This thread is about lions and I will leave it that way. Sorry for the off topic, but somewhat relevant post.

Your reply was not really off topic, but while both are wildlife, the Public view/attitudes/feelings toward them among humans, including hunters is quite different.

It was not, is not my intention to offend people but quite often offense is taken when none was intended.

I just happen to believe that with some species general public sentiment, World Wide, is going to end hunting for those species. Even among hunters, hunting Lions/Elephant/Rhino/Leopard and Giraffe is coming under more scrutiny and less acceptance and that is just a fact.

While the true anti's want all hunting shut down, there are many folks that while not supporting it have not as much of a problem with people shooting "Livestock" as actual Wildlife.

Canned hunting of captive reared animals, regardless of whether it is cattle or lions, is viewed differently.

I wished that things had not gotten to this point but they have and to me only appear to be headed downhill with the future of hunting of any kind being limited tpo high fenced/private property regardless of the species being hunted.

I apologise for offending you but trying to equate deer with African Lions and the manmagement and future hunting prospects for both species, I just do not feel is realistic.

I simply believe that opposing the put and take lion hunting on "Ethical Grounds" as being similar to cutting ones nose off to spite their face and is only playing into the hands of the anti's.

Here is one opinion!

I believe most of the problem with captive bred animals that are then hunted are most times called "CANNED HUNTED LIVESTOCK"!
The hunters who name this as "CANNED" are simply doing the same thing the antis are, making all these animals in one lump, and that is not the case.

IMO, the word CANNED does not apply to all captive bred animals. That word only applies to animals that are hand fed and handled by people their whole lives, then turned out in a small enclosure only days before a booked hunter is to arrive, to feed on a dead animal placed in a spot(near a blind and
/or a water hole) where he will naturally return each time he is hungry/thirsty with the bait replenished each day till the HUNTER arrives to shoot him. That is, IMO a canned so-called HUNT!

A captive bred animal that has not been habituated to human handlers and is let out into a very large (fenced) property where wild life is also available for things like a lion to hunt for himself and free to roam the land that has plenty of cover and escape routes, for two or three months on his own before being hunted, IMO is not a canned hunt.

Not for me, and it seems most others here, but the fact is if a person wants a lion and will hunt one anyway a lion killed in a FAIR hunt in a large enclosure is certainly a lion that was not taken in the wild, but not canned either.

The antis are after the so-called canned hunts because they can't get to free land hunting, and once they get all captive bred (CANNED) hunts outlawed, then their resources will be on the wild hunts full bore!

.......................................................Please wait for me to dig my fox hole before you start shooting!

Thank You Mac for those comments.

The only problem I see with your assessment is that the antis want ALL hunting of any kind stopped. That seems to be the hard part for some folks/some hunters to comprehend.

The antis do not care about our ethics, whether the animals we hunt are tied to a tree or roaming free on hundreds of thousand acres of unfenced land.

Their goal is to stop ALL hunting of ANY kind. Hunters are playing into their hands with actions like this, which essentially fotrms another dividing line among hunters.

At some point hunters are going to have to ask themselves which is more important, keeping hunting of some form alive for future generations or letting it be taken from us over personal concepts of ethics.

Yeah, you’re right there is no place for ethics in hunting. We should support the right of every hunter to engage in whatever repugnant, irresponsible or distasteful practice they find appropriate. United we stand.

Cazyhorse: watch the CNN Trophy documentary, and you can see the importance of ethics.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Cazyhorse: watch the CNN Trophy documentary, and you can see the importance of ethics.

. . . I will take the under on that bet.

I watched an hour or so and saw “shithole” hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
I watched an hour or so and saw “shithole” hunting.

I gave up watching so called "hunting"shows on the TV years ago.

Apart from a very few gentlemen who post here, and do a great job of it, the rest are nothiong but self glorifying idiots!

Who should have stayed home.

quote:

Cazyhorse: watch the CNN Trophy documentary, and you can see the importance of ethics

I understand the importance of Ethics, but WHO determines what is ethical and what isn't and sets the standard that EVERYONE most follow???

Do you honestly support or think the activities shown should be allowed to continue. Hunters have to self regulate and impose restrictions upon us and Outfitters.

DSC, SCI, Boone and Crocket ( who does by the way) must issue regs for anyone who is going to sell, place animals in record books, and be alllowed to use their organizations’ intellectual property.

Violations would require banishment from these organizations.

We need seminars to educate hunters what sport hunting is , what fair chase means. Otherwise we are going to continue to have folks think and say, “I want to kill a croc because I want a purse.”

No ! we kill crocs because of the danger they pose to local people. The fee allows them to rebuy stock that is taken by crocs. Therefore, crocs are allowed to exist.

Professional Hunting Assoicand must step up to the plant to end put and take Hunting now.

If I thought for a minute most sport hunting was what was portrayed I would sell my guns and join the antis.

we have many experienced elephant hunters opining that the own use elephant should have been brained. It’s suffering ended immediately. That should apply to all animals. That must be codified by the PH Associations and hunting organizations because an experienced PH cannot follow common sense.

Hunters were the first in Africa and the US to have legislation passed to ensure fair chase amd animal here health.

I also suggest that the Namibia PH Association limit own use elephants to older males who meet the Ivory weight requirement. No one can tell what a sub adult. Especially, one with three feet of ivory sticking out will become.

Offer suggestions if you want to be part of the conversation and the solution.

SCI should fly Dr. Packer to Los Vegas today and adopt the Six year lion rule. Better late than never.

Keep doing what we are doing now (nothing) and hunting will end. In that case , maybe it should end.

quote:

I understand the importance of Ethics, but WHO determines what is ethical and what isn't and sets the standard that EVERYONE most follow?

Not WHO but WHAT.

A correct moral upbringing will determine the difference between what is right or wrong.

Fair chase in hunting is traditional and if you go back into the history of hunting, you will find that it was a gentleman's sport and reserved to a privileged class of the populace.

There is a whale of a difference when discussing "put & take", "captive bred" & "hand reared".

Of the 3 scenarios, "put & take" could be considered the more acceptable from an ethical point of view as the game does not necessarily have to come from a breeder but from an over-stocked natural source (Game Park) where the animal was born wild and free.

Shooting a "hand reared" Lion is utter BS and deep down inside, if you have any moral values, will recognize this to be true.

Folks, I do not know if any of you remember or were old enough to have seen the show back in the early 70's called the "Guns Of Autumn"?

That broke me from watching TV documentaries about hunting. I would have figured that by this point in time anyone that hunts would KNOW that no MSM outlet is going to do a fair and unbiased report of any kind about hunting.

The issue of Ethics is going to play a large role in the death of hunting.

Look at some of the parameters.

Shooting an animal at a waterhole is unethical to many people, shooting a leopard over a bait isn't.

Once again WHO is going to standardize and enforce ethics among hunters across the board?

Are the various game departments going to adopt and enforce ethics along with established laws/regulations?

I am an unethical hunter, I willingly admit to shooting deer from a stand overlooking a timed feeder. I shoot ducks setting on the water instead of waiting for them to fly.

If I am in one of the passtures tending to the cattle or buffalo, if I see a coyote I will shoot from the cab of the pick up.

Am I trying to force my ethics or lack thereof on anyone, NO. Do I want someone forcing their personal concept of Ethical Hunting on me, NO!

I can understand what all of you are saying concerning your concepts of "Ethical Hunting", but I can also understand that not everyone agrees with you and I can also understand that just like in the "Crater", any that do not agree with you will be considered unethical slobs.

Sad to see an open display of why hunters have lost the battle and we only have ourselves to blame.

quote:

you will find that it was a gentleman's sport and reserved to a privileged class of the populace.

So not only should there be Ethical Standards establisherd but Class Standards also to determine who should be allowed to hunt.

I have no strong issue against the CNN documentary itself. It cast a light on behavior by the hunting community that we need to take steps now to address and prevent. That is not a bad thing.

If organized hunting acts upon the issues we have identified in three threads. It will have been a good thing. Sadly, I think the opportunity for growth will be missed. The result is we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Crazyhorse: Watch it. It is on iTunes for free.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

you will find that it was a gentleman's sport and reserved to a privileged class of the populace.

So not only should there be Ethical Standards establisherd but Class Standards also to determine who should be allowed to hunt.

You obviously have difficulty in understanding Queen's English: "..that it WAS a gentleman's sport..." and if I am not mistaken, a "serf" could be hanged if caught poaching.

Shooting an animal at the waterhole is illegal in most countries - once it has drank its fill and moved well away, it is considered to be "fair game".

The way hunting over a man-made waterhole is conducted in South Africa is quite frankly disgusting because by and large there are no natural watering points and game is therefore forced to drink at these concrete ponds or troughs.

Shooting a Leopard over bait is neither illegal nor unethical simply because the Leopard is in its natural element and storing its kill in the branches of a tree is its way of life.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I have no strong issue against the CNN documentary itself. It cast a light on behavior by the hunting community that we need to take steps now to address and prevent. That is not a bad thing.

If organized hunting acts upon the issues we have identified in three threads. It will have been a good thing. Sadly, I think the opportunity for growth will be missed. The result is we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Crazyhorse: Watch it. It is on iTunes for free.

Bloody hell, so now you have conveniently appointed yourself as the savior of hunting ethics??

The point I am trying to make on this issue is that the people fighting to get hunting stopped, do not care about our ethics, they want all hunting stopped and they are not going to back down from that.

Believe , I do not watch hunting shows, even documentaries such as that one, because they do show behaviors I do not approve of.

Problem is, if one group decides a practice is unethical, sucvh as hunting deer from an enclosed blind overlooking a timed feeder and believes it should be stoppoed, what will be next?

What if another faction decides that hunting with a scope sighted rifle is unethical and that everyone should only be allowed to hunt with iron sights?

Each of us make choices on doing any activity, hunting is no different and hunters are expected to obey the written laws in effect for the species being hunted and the location the hunt is taking place in.

This comment is from an earlier response on this subject:

quote:

you will find that it was a gentleman's sport and reserved to a privileged class of the populace.

Is that what some on here are promoting, that only a certain Class of the Popiulace should be allowed to hunt?

I have been hunting for 50 years now, but according to some on here, folks like me who don't agree with THEITR idea of Ethical Hunting should be weeded out or should never have been allowed to hunt.

I will have to look it up but amazingly our 26th. President, Theodore Roosevelt, felt that way. He commented that the average American was not competent enough to be hunting.

Why when hunting anywhere is facing a united force trying minute by minute to stop the activity are there hunters that want to try and impose limits on who should be able to hunt.

Think about this for just one minute, why do people believe it is perfectly acceptable to shoot a leopard over a bait while at ther dsame time find it totally reprehensible to step out of a vehicle and shoot an antelope or be within "X" number of yards of tghe vehicle ewhen ther sdhot is taken?

So, we get to individually decide what is right and wrong? We use our own standards? Really?

I suspect if we pursue that route we end up with 265,000,000 sets of laws, rules, ethics in the USA alone. Reality is that we do not get to set the standards, most are already set and agreed upon by people that see the need for order in a sport, life, government or church or whatever.

So, that fact I do not like the metric system and refuse to adhere to meters and liters, does that mean I toss out our monetary system as well because it is actually a metric system? No, I accept it and move with it.

So, shooting ducks on the water is "legal" and we should all do that because one person sees ducks as a primary food source and would starve if not allowed to shoot as many as possible on the water? No, I doubt anyone reading this is a subsistence hunter in need of meat for today. We hunt for the sport of fair chase, not just piling up corpses of ducks or deer or coyotes. As far back as the Egyptians before Moses was there, ethics and rules about hunting and fair chase. This carried through the Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Medes, Eskimos, and all civilized people groups.

In the USA ( as well as early settlers in South Africa), we are totally guilty of exploitation of the game and near annihilation of it. When we "woke up" to what we were doing, ethics/standards/laws and conservation became the norm.

We are past the days of wanton exploitation, I hope. Shooting ducks on the water or deer under a feeder should be in the past - not in our future. Why would this be a good idea? There is no justification for non ethical hunting because it ceases to be sport with ethics are tossed out.

Where do we draw the line? Why not just spread corn in your swimming pool and shoot them there?

This is a "sport" and not a "right". It is a privilege shared by people who pursue the sport in an "ethical", legal, fair chase manner....

In the USA, we are free to pursue deer by shooting them as they feed under a timed feeder that tosses corn and nutrients to them on a conditioned basis. Go ahead, it is legal... But it is no more ethical than shooting a lion in a pen or a "kick and shoot, pen raised" quail or .... (fill in the blank).

Captive bred deer have unleashed chronic wasting disease on us. The same goes for color breeding of African wild game.

Without a uniform set of ethics/rules/standards - we in chaos. Boone and Crockett set standards, DSC sets some standards, Rowland and Ward has ethics, most civilized societies have standards.

To the extreme, in actual war - when a combatant is wounded, the opposition often provides medical care. The Geneva Convention sets "ethics" in war.

Anyway, I doubt there will ever be agreement here. This reminds me of my kinfolks in South Carolina who are still fighting the War Between the States.... Hard to let go of what is obvious wrong, but needs to be let go of.

Well we might starty by looking at the fact, Laws are written and legislated thsat asre easily understood and interpreted.

Ethics are personal concepts that cannot be imposed on everyone.

I feel that most hunters believe that as long as what is being done is legal is all that matters.

Personally I think Long Range shooting of game is unethical, but if the person doing it is comfortable with what they are doing, that is their business, Not Mine.

I just feel that all the infighting that is taking place over the issue of what is and isn't ethical is only helping the anti's.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Well we might start by looking at the fact, Laws are written and legislated that are easily understood and interpreted.

Ethics are personal concepts that cannot be imposed on everyone.

I feel that most hunters believe that as long as what is being done is legal is all that matters.

Personally I think Long Range shooting of game is unethical, but if the person doing it is comfortable with what they are doing, that is their business, Not Mine.

I just feel that all the infighting that is taking place over the issue of what is and isn't ethical is only helping the anti's.

CHC:

You are entitled to view it your way but to say that while ethics are a personal concept and cannot be imposed on anyone and provided their actions are legal, all is good.

Just like shooting hand-reared White Lions which maybe a few weeks earlier were part of the "walk with the Lions" group; all legal and by your line of thinking, quite ethical.

Long-range shooting:
Not everyone is capable of pulling off extra long shots and those who can and do, certainly know their stuff (Damn it I have seen many snuff shots at 30 yards!).

I fail to see how long-range shooting can be deemed unethical unless the person who is attempting it is taking a pot-shot and hoping for the best. Yes, that would be unethical because of the risk (high) of unnecessarily wounding the quarry - certainly not for someone with sniper-grade qualities though.

Agreed that the antis don't give a shit about ethics or morals but, it would be less cannon-fodder to them if we were at least to conduct ourselves in the proper manner with regards to a hunting code of conduct.

For those who are struggling with the concept of ethical hunting, I submit for your consideration the following excerpt from ORION - The Hunter's Institute's Website. Cheers and please carry on gentlemen.

***
What Does It Mean To Be An Ethical Hunter?

“Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. “
– Frank Outlaw

We recognize that the hunter occupies a unique position in society such that our mission draws from these words:

“A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.”
– Aldo Leopold

It is Orion’s objective to make Leopold’s observation the norm in hunting behavior.

Being an ethical hunter starts with recognizing that you, individually, command the behaviors and experience you undertake and that responsible modern hunters must recognize that education, debate, and thoughtful examination are critical components of developing one’s understanding of his or her hunting ethic.

Perhaps others have put it best:

“Only you are the one who decides how you will behave.”
– Victor Fankl

“To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society.”
– Theodore Roosevelt

“To educate a hunter in safety and skills and not in ethics is to educate a menace to our conservation legacy.”
– Jim Tantillo

"To the sportsman, the death of the game is not what interests him: that is not his purpose. What interests him is everything that he had to do to achieve that death - that is, the hunt. Therefore what was before only a means to an end is now an end in itself. Death is essential because without it there is no authentic hunting. The killing of the animal is the natural end of the hunt and the goal of hunting itself, not of the hunter. The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than the sign of reality for the whole hunting process...

One does not hunt in order to kill: on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."
- Jose' Ortega y Gasset
***

Abortion is legal, but it is still murder...

Ethics??? I struggle to see how abortion/murder is an ethical dilemma. Yes, I understand the argument over health of the mother, rape, incest and all - but that is less than 1% of the abortions. Ethics determine how we behave - not laws.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I have no strong issue against the CNN documentary itself. It cast a light on behavior by the hunting community that we need to take steps now to address and prevent. That is not a bad thing.

If organized hunting acts upon the issues we have identified in three threads. It will have been a good thing. Sadly, I think the opportunity for growth will be missed. The result is we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Crazyhorse: Watch it. It is on iTunes for free.

Bloody hell, so now you have conveniently appointed yourself as the savior of hunting ethics??

. No my ethical standards are heavily influenced by Boone and Crocket Club. You know the original hunting organization formed by hunters to define fair chase and pass its ethical standards into law.

Saeed do you support the behavior we saw? Did you even watch? I will grant you this, I think we should all see this as a call to arms to re-establish hunting ethics and fair chase.

There are lots of things todays hunters do that I do not support, and there are things I do while hunting others do not suppoprt, but in my case at least everything I do is legal.

Let us look at a couple of the words that people are throwing around in these discussion.

Ethics vs. Morals. ... While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong.

Definition of ethic

1 ethics plural in form but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation

2 a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values the present-day materialistic ethic an old-fashioned work ethic —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction an elaborate ethics Christian ethics (b) ethics plural in form but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group professional ethics c : a guiding philosophy d : a consciousness of moral importance forge a conservation ethic

3 ethics plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (such as rightness) debated the ethics of human cloning

Just because a form of hunting is legal, no one is forced to participate if they do not want to, it is all personal choice.

What I see with these discussions is that not only are anti hunters wanting hunting stopped, but other hunters are wanting to stop these hunters from hunting in a manner that is perfectly legal, over the interpretation of Ethics.

Why should I as a hunter support other hunters that believe I should not hunt in the manner I do, even though it is legal, but does not meet their level of ethical behavior?

Does this all boil down to nothing more or less than Class discrimination?

Guys think about this, the folks that made Trophy that aired on CNN were hard shell anti hunters. Dr. Packer and seeing a fair chase elephant hunt feed a community changed their minds.

You are fools if you think ethics can not sway opinion of antis and non hunter alike.

quote:

You are fools if you think ethics can not sway opinion of antis and non hunter alike.

Only time is going reveal the outcome, but if people are fools because they believe ethics will not sway the opinions of the real antis, than people are fools that believe Non Hunters are against hunting!

During my huntingh career I have known and still know plenty of people that do not hunt, never have hunted, buty have nothing against those of us that do and will happily take fresh game meat if it is offered to them.

People that do not understand that it is going to take All hunters to unite and finding lines of divisions such as ethics are also fools.

The clock is ticking and hunters are still finding reasons to remain divided and too many of us refuse to understand that the folks wanting hunting stop do not care asbout our ETHICS.

Sorry, I have to agree with Saeed on this, all of the division over ethics and who is or isn't a "Real Hunter" or who should be able to call themselves a hunter or who should even be able to hunt in some peoples eyes/mind will bring an end to hunting.

Wish things we not the way they are, not for myself but for the future generations that will not be able to experience what many of us have.

I was thinking of going to the DSC convention some time but I may have to reconsider due to their stance.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was thinking of going to the DSC convention some time but I may have to reconsider due to their stance.

Please explain? You mean,I assume, you are against their stance on ethical hunting?

DSC is about fair chase. Captive reared lion hunting is not fair chase. A selected, specific animal in a high fence environment will be executed.

We can argue If captive reared lion has any benefit. We cannot not argue it is a fair chase endeavor.

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was thinking of going to the DSC convention some time but I may have to reconsider due to their stance.

Please explain? You mean,I assume, you are against their stance on ethical hunting?

This makes me even more confident that DSC is on the right track.

The fellow choosing to hunt bred lions is not ruining you world.You choosing to condemn him are ruining it for everybody.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The fellow choosing to hunt bred lions is not ruining you world.You choosing to condemn him are ruining it for everybody.

Will wonders and miracles never cease! There are some words of truth and wisdom here.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was thinking of going to the DSC convention some time but I may have to reconsider due to their stance.

Please explain? You mean,I assume, you are against their stance on ethical hunting?

This makes me even more confident that DSC is on the right track.

You've been stalking my posts and insulting me for years.It shows what kind of a person you are.I bet there are many others you harass in your every day life.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
DSC is about fair chase. Captive reared lion hunting is not fair chase. A selected, specific animal in a high fence environment will be executed.

We can argue If captive reared lion has any benefit. We cannot not argue it is a fair chase endeavor.

What about baiting lion and using trap cameras? How do you feel about those?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The fellow choosing to hunt bred lions is not ruining you world.You choosing to condemn him are ruining it for everybody.

Not surprisingly you are wrong. The person choosing to do a canned lion hunt is in fact engaged in an activity that threatens to ruin my world. Such activities result in public condemnation of the sport and as a consequence have given us restrictions such as the current lion and elephant trophy importation bans.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The fellow choosing to hunt bred lions is not ruining you world.You choosing to condemn him are ruining it for everybody.

Not surprisingly you are wrong. The person choosing to do a canned lion hunt is in fact engaged in an activity that threatens to ruin my world. Such activities result in public condemnation of the sport and as a consequence have given us restrictions such as the current lion and elephant trophy importation bans.

"such activities" I can think of worst but why would I want to bring them to light.What good will that do? Hunting regulations were not introduced just yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
DSC is about fair chase. Captive reared lion hunting is not fair chase. A selected, specific animal in a high fence environment will be executed.

We can argue If captive reared lion has any benefit. We cannot not argue it is a fair chase endeavor.

What about baiting lion and using trap cameras? How do you feel about those?

As baiting and camera traps relate to lion, I have no issue with them. Primarily, because those tools allow for proper identification and selection of the appropriate (Old and solitary a male) be taken animal to be taken. This being most paramount with lion and lesser degree leopard.

Even with camera traps and baiting free range, lion hunts are not high success hunts. The failure rate speaks to theses tools not affecting the fair chase.

Where the captive bread lion will die by the shooters hand who bought him. No ifs and or buts. Therefore, not fair chase.

Will you permit me the observation that animal car us baiting does not isolate and condition a wild predator to the degree corn baiting does deer and turkey.

Ledvm, please if you disagree, I want to hear your opinion.

The animal has to be able to win or not fair chase.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
DSC is about fair chase. Captive reared lion hunting is not fair chase. A selected, specific animal in a high fence environment will be executed.

We can argue If captive reared lion has any benefit. We cannot not argue it is a fair chase endeavor.

What about baiting lion and using trap cameras? How do you feel about those?

As baiting and camera traps relate to lion, I have no issue with them. Primarily, because those tools allow for proper identification and selection of the appropriate (Old and solitary a male) be taken animal to be taken. This being most paramount with lion and lesser degree leopard.

Even with camera traps and baiting free range, lion hunts are not high success hunts. The failure rate speaks to theses tools not affecting the fair chase.

Where the captive bread lion will die by the shooters hand who bought him. No ifs and or buts. Therefore, not fair chase.

Will you permit me the observation that animal car us baiting does not isolate and condition a wild predator to the degree corn baiting does deer and turkey.

Ledvm, please if you disagree, I want to hear your opinion.

The animal has to be able to win or not fair chase.

At least with bred lions you don't need a camera and you could control the age at which they will be shot-no wounded or dangerous animals either.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
DSC is about fair chase. Captive reared lion hunting is not fair chase. A selected, specific animal in a high fence environment will be executed.

We can argue If captive reared lion has any benefit. We cannot not argue it is a fair chase endeavor.

What about baiting lion and using trap cameras? How do you feel about those?

As baiting and camera traps relate to lion, I have no issue with them. Primarily, because those tools allow for proper identification and selection of the appropriate (Old and solitary a male) be taken animal to be taken. This being most paramount with lion and lesser degree leopard.

Even with camera traps and baiting free range, lion hunts are not high success hunts. The failure rate speaks to theses tools not affecting the fair chase.

Where the captive bread lion will die by the shooters hand who bought him. No ifs and or buts. Therefore, not fair chase.

Will you permit me the observation that animal car us baiting does not isolate and condition a wild predator to the degree corn baiting does deer and turkey.

Ledvm, please if you disagree, I want to hear your opinion.

The animal has to be able to win or not fair chase.

I agree 100% to what you stated above in regards to lion and leopard...it is correct.

I just say it is a very thin line you are trying to walk differentiating whitetail deer...in regards to baiting.

Also...if you alienate corn feeding whitetail deer hunters from the cause of lion and ivory...you have lost the battle before it begins.