Page 67 of the spring 2010 African Hunting Gazette has a story about a 52" buffalo.

There is a striking resemblance to this posting:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/1221069401

Have not seen it yet...Any names????

Jeff

405, can you post the gazette story, or find a link?

A friend picked up a copy at DSC and showed me the article regarding Angus Murray and his buff. He is the hunter linked to the 52", 100K buffalo in the above link.

I don't have the article but if anyone can get it, there is, shall we say, a sharp contrast with the link.

quote:

Originally posted by 405wcf:
A friend picked up a copy at DSC and showed me the article regarding Angus Murray and his buff. He is the hunter linked to the 52", 100K buffalo in the above link.

I don't have the article but if anyone can get it, there is, shall we say, a sharp contrast with the link.

What is that old saying? "If it swalks like a duck, and swims like a duck, then it must be a duck"!

Any time I see the name Angus Murray I would guess with 99% certainty whatever hr shots is questionable.

Hmnnnn, I just had a look at the Dec/Jan isuue of African Outfitter.
There is a picture of your favourite sportsman there as well, hunting with Stone Safaris again, and a new Rowland Ward #2 Blue Wildebeest at 35 5/8".
The horns do not curl back in the classic shape, but instead are kinked kinda like a texas long horn. Not pretty.

Mr Murray s mentioned on the Rowland Ward site. Note the author of this story

Featured Trophy: Trophy Blesbuck

quote:

Featured Trophy: Trophy Blesbuck

by Jason Stone

While on a recent hunting trip, I received word from one of my partners that there was an impressive blesbok in the Winberg area in the Free State of South Africa. It was a lucky twist of fate as I was already hunting with Angus Murray, a good friend and client only interested in hunting above-average trophies. When we heard the blesbok might go over 20 inches, Angus was immediately interested. The next day we arrived in the area and headed into the field to start our search. Though we saw a number of really good rams, we didn’t find the giant we were looking for till late in the
afternoon.

Bedded down in a big open field with some younger rams, his long, thick horns stood out instantly and I knew this was the one we’d come looking for.
There was no cover and we could only creep to within 300 yards before a group of eland standing 100 yards to the left started getting anxious and alerted the rams to our presence. When the blesbok stood up Angus was ready with the rifle on the shooting sticks and fired the first of two shots needed to take the beast down. The monster
blesbok was far and away the largest I’d ever seen.

If you search the hunting report photo album the man also has some very nice fair chase trophies from a variety of locations around Africa including forest ele in Cameroon and some excellent lion.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 405wcf:
A friend picked up a copy at DSC and showed me the article regarding Angus Murray and his buff. He is the hunter linked to the 52", 100K buffalo in the above link.

I don't have the article but if anyone can get it, there is, shall we say, a sharp contrast with the link.

What is that old saying? "If it swalks like a duck, and swims like a duck, then it must be a duck"!

Any time I see the name Angus Murray I would guess with 99% certainty whatever hr shots is questionable.

+10,000

As the old saying goes.. "Who gives a shit?!!".

If thats how the man wants to spend HIS earned cash, so be it.. It may not be my (or your) thing, but then again, it isn't our money!

He sure as hell isn't the only one out there doing this sorta thing. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a viable market for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
As the old saying goes.. "Who gives a shit?!!".

If thats how the man wants to spend HIS earned cash, so be it.. It may not be my (or your) thing, but then again, it isn't our money!

He sure as hell isn't the only one out there doing this sorta thing. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a viable market for it.

True, but it is not about the money. It is this record book mentality of people wanting to see their names in a book that encourages this type of disgusting behavior; shooting buffalo in pens and killing canned lions. It hardly fits the definition of sport. Perhaps there should be a separate "Records of Killing Captive Big Game" book for these types of "trophies" and their brave "hunters".

It was a "beast" and a "monster" and took "two shots" to bring it down. Angus must be a very brave man.

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
As the old saying goes.. "Who gives a shit?!!".

If thats how the man wants to spend HIS earned cash, so be it.. It may not be my (or your) thing, but then again, it isn't our money!

He sure as hell isn't the only one out there doing this sorta thing. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a viable market for it.

True, but it is not about the money. It is this record book mentality of people wanting to see their names in a book that encourages this type of disgusting behavior; shooting buffalo in pens and killing canned lions. It hardly fits the definition of sport. Perhaps there should be a separate "Records of Killing Captive Big Game" book for these types of "trophies" and their brave "hunters".

Agreed.. I have absolutely zero interest in record books or seeing my name in them either.. Thats not why I hunt. They (record books) are designed just for guys exactly like this dude. If the records were truely about the animals, they would not list the hunter's name in the listing at all.
But if all want to jump on the bandwagon, they had better get busy! SCI is FULL to the brem of guys EXACTLY like this Angus dude.. Ever looked at the names of the diamond level trophy entries?

I'm done here. My .02 have been spent.

Phenobarbital and Fentanyl???



Sorry...

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
As the old saying goes.. "Who gives a shit?!!".

If thats how the man wants to spend HIS earned cash, so be it.. It may not be my (or your) thing, but then again, it isn't our money!

He sure as hell isn't the only one out there doing this sorta thing. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a viable market for it.

True, but it is not about the money. It is this record book mentality of people wanting to see their names in a book that encourages this type of disgusting behavior; shooting buffalo in pens and killing canned lions. It hardly fits the definition of sport. Perhaps there should be a separate "Records of Killing Captive Big Game" book for these types of "trophies" and their brave "hunters".

Agreed.. I have absolutely zero interest in record books or seeing my name in them either.. Thats not why I hunt. They (record books) are designed just for guys exactly like this dude. If the records were truely about the animals, they would not list the hunter's name in the listing at all.
But if all want to jump on the bandwagon, they had better get busy! SCI is FULL to the brem of guys EXACTLY like this Angus dude.. Ever looked at the names of the diamond level trophy entries?
I'm done here. My .02 have been spent.

I concur fully 100%. Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many of the diamond level "trophies" were truly fair chase?

I like using Rowland Ward as a yardstick to what constitutes an exceptional trophy but in the same breath think nothing less of an animal that does not meet the minimum requirements.

Hunting purely to make an entry in 'the book' is missing the point in my opinion. At the end of the day that person is missing out on the true joy of hunting and do so at their loss.

I suspect if it wasnt for helicopters and the country of South Africa........the number of "diamond level" entries would read a looooottt shorter.

No offense to the SA bretheren here that do their hunting on the up and up.....

There's a lot of SCI folks who couldn't care less about the record book. I'm one of them. To me it's just a fund raiser. I agree though that canned animals should be in a seperate book category. Why that's excluding Tam Safaris lions of course as they're all "free range"!!!

Brett

I must say that I did not realise that South Africa was gaining such notoriety as a destination for canned hunting. Which is naive I know as most hunting here takes place in enclosed properties.

Where does one draw the line between canned hunting and fair chase? What is the difference between hunting a lion (or a 52" buffalo for that matter) in a 2,500 acre enclosure and hunting an impala in that same enclosure? Possibly one could argue that the impala is self-sufficient but the lion is not? Which hunt would be more challenging?

Umshiniwam,
I am sure some on here will not agree with me on my view of what constitutes "canned hunting" I see what you are saying about animals being hunted in huge properties being self sufficient on that amount of land, and that is fine for a lot of hunters. However, my feeling is if the animal has been tainted by the hand of man, that is bred, born, raised in any sort of captivity and released or trapped and relocated to an enclosure of any size then it is canned hunt.

Canned hunt to me says the animal is not free range. It was not born in the wild. like I said it has been tainted by the hand of man. I feel the same way about high fenced monster whitetails that are grown here in the US. The guys that can pay for those deer are looking for, in my oppinion, artwork for the wall, it is not so much about the hunting experience...collectors if you will.

Collector syndrome I like to call it, is I believe, where hunters become so obsessed with taking the largest record book animal possible and taking another species for thier resume that they loose passion for hunting in a hunters way to taking the animals they "need" at any cost....ie...helicopters in NZ, raised Lion in SA, 52" buffalo trapped and released, 200+ whitetails in TX or MO or IA, etc.....To each thier own, like it was said above it was his money he can do what he wants with it, and I agree. However, he will earn no respect from me for it, which is fine im just another guy but thats my oppinion.

Oh yes.....it also makes me sick. LOL!

Each of us is free to hunt anyway he wishes. Whether climbing the highest mountain to get that rare sheep or clobbering a pet lion in South Africa.

What I do mind is the example given with this buffalo.

A man who seems to be so obsessed with glory, regardless of how he attains it, goes and shoots a buffalo which has been captured for that purpose.

In my reading of trophies, the hunter has been descibed as being so determined in his pursuit of getting a super trophy that he hunts for years before managing to get what he desires.

Those days have gone.

And the way SCI has glorified "mine is bigger than yours" and their "inner circles" has defeated any idea of ethical hunting.

It has come down to how big is one's bank account.

Go and hunt for the sake of hunging. For the memories of the hunt.

Not for the record book.

Leave that for the "inner circles" of SCI.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Each of us is free to hunt anyway he wishes. Whether climbing the highest mountain to get that rare sheep or clobbering a pet lion in South Africa.

What I do mind is the example given with this buffalo.

A man who seems to be so obsessed with glory, regardless of how he attains it, goes and shoots a buffalo which has been captured for that purpose.

In my reading of trophies, the hunter has been descibed as being so determined in his pursuit of getting a super trophy that he hunts for years before managing to get what he desires.

Those days have gone.

And the way SCI has glorified "mine is bigger than yours" and their "inner circles" has defeated any idea of ethical hunting.

It has come down to how big is one's bank account.

Go and hunt for the sake of hunging. For the memories of the hunt.

Not for the record book.

Leave that for the "inner circles" of SCI.

1+

quote:

Originally posted by silwane:
Umshiniwam,
I am sure some on here will not agree with me on my view of what constitutes "canned hunting" I see what you are saying about animals being hunted in huge properties being self sufficient on that amount of land, and that is fine for a lot of hunters. However, my feeling is if the animal has been tainted by the hand of man, that is bred, born, raised in any sort of captivity and released or trapped and relocated to an enclosure of any size then it is canned hunt.
Canned hunt to me says the animal is not free range. It was not born in the wild. like I said it has been tainted by the hand of man. I feel the same way about high fenced monster whitetails that are grown here in the US. The guys that can pay for those deer are looking for, in my oppinion, artwork for the wall, it is not so much about the hunting experience...collectors if you will.

Collector syndrome I like to call it, is I believe, where hunters become so obsessed with taking the largest record book animal possible and taking another species for thier resume that they loose passion for hunting in a hunters way to taking the animals they "need" at any cost....ie...helicopters in NZ, raised Lion in SA, 52" buffalo trapped and released, 200+ whitetails in TX or MO or IA, etc.....To each thier own, like it was said above it was his money he can do what he wants with it, and I agree. However, he will earn no respect from me for it, which is fine im just another guy but thats my oppinion.

Oh yes.....it also makes me sick. LOL!

This is the best definition of canned hunting that I've yet seen!

I wish that I could add even more emphasis on the words "of any size" that is already in bold type in silwane's definition.

Consider the following: A trophy kudu (or any animal) is captured on a zillion hectares free range nature reserve and transported and released on a 2 zillion hectares high fenced property. Now just after release that trophy is found on 2 zillion hectares and if you hunt it there, surely it must be ethical? No! A most definate NO! That is a canned kudu!

It is canned because the kudu is now in a totally strange evnironment, it does not know; where the water is;
where the fences are;
where the even bigger more dominant bull has his territory;
where to escape to if he sees a hunter approach;
where there is a nice quiet out of the way place to take his mid afternoon nap;
anything at all about the area that he has been released!

That kudu is so pre-occupied with just getting back to his old home that he is likely to walk up and down next to the first fence that he runs in to. As he slowly gets to know his new home his being a "canned" animal gradually wears off.

How long does it take for a translocated animal to not be canned any more? I honestly do not know. I have let a client shoot animals that were translocated three years before the hunt. IMHO that is quite enough time for the animal to get to know his 'new' home range and establish normal behavior. But I personally regard anything that was released the same season as fully canned.

The problem with so many land owners & hunting outfitters is that they buy replacement stock each year from the acutions. So one may hunt a trophy that has been born there. Or the trophy that you hunt was released into the area three or more years ago. Or you may hunt the trophy that is still totally disorientated, fully stressed from the ordeal of capture, transpost and release into a strange environment. With 'put -'n-take' operators you just never know if you hunted a canned animal.

To all of you that have hunted with hunting outfitters that buy in new trophy animals each year I ask the following question: Which of the three trophies is the easiest to hunt and thefore most likely the one that you got: One that was (1) born and grew old on the property, or (2) was lucky in evading hunters for three years since his release or (3) the one that was delivered yesterday? Come on, be honest and admit that in all likelihood your trophy was a canned one if your hunt was conducted on a property where trophy animals are regularly released!

I hate canned hunting!

In good ethical hunting.

Andrew McLaren