Larry Shores recently posted on the thread about the elephant importation ban litigation a link to an NRA-sponsored social media site that included a comment on the ban and invited comments.

http://www.americanhunter.org/...article.php?id=32535

The NRA thread was started on December 30, 2014. It is now January 10 and there are just two comments on that thread, two. One from me and one from someone saying the NRA should leave the ban in place since elephants are threatened and their numbers are dropping and stay out of fights over issues like this.

Two points. One, despite the link being posted on AR, no one will even take the time to post a one or two sentence comment. As hunters we are largely completely inert when it comes to getting involved in issues. Yet we wonder why we are losing the fight to groups like PETA, the Humane Society, the ASPCA, etc. Two, even among hunters we are fragmented and fail to appreciate how disparate attacks on hunting rights are actually linked and part of a broader, longer term effort to take those rights away generally. The one other comment is from someone that purports to be an NRA member saying stay out of the fight on the ban.

I think it was Pogo in the old comics that said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." We really do have no one to blame but ourselves. We would rather debate what underwear to wear on safari, whether Capstick was a fraud or point out all the things wrong with SCI, etc. than take two minutes to weigh in on an issue important to our rights. If you were the NRA and in two weeks you got two comments on your blog on the elephant ban issue . . . and one comment was urging you to stand down . . . how would that impact your willingness and desire to get involved in similar issues in the future?

We should all be a little embarrassed.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Larry Shores recently posted on the thread about the elephant importation ban litigation a link to an NRA-sponsored social media site that included a comment on the ban and invited comments.

http://www.americanhunter.org/...article.php?id=32535

The NRA thread was started on December 30, 2014. It is now January 10 and there are just two comments on that thread, two. One from me and one from someone saying the NRA should leave the ban in place since elephants are threatened and their numbers are dropping and stay out of fights over issues like this.

Two points. One, despite the link being posted on AR, no one will even take the time to post a one or two sentence comment. As hunters we are largely completely inert when it comes to getting involved in issues. Yet we wonder why we are losing the fight to groups like PETA, the Humane Society, the ASPCA, etc. Two, even among hunters we are fragmented and fail to appreciate how disparate attacks on hunting rights are actually linked and part of a broader, longer term effort to take those rights away generally. The one other comment is from someone that purports to be an NRA member saying stay out of the fight on the ban.

I think it was Pogo in the old comics that said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." We really do have no one to blame but ourselves. We would rather debate what underwear to wear on safari, whether Capstick was a fraud or point out all the things wrong with SCI, etc. than take two minutes to weigh in on an issue important to our rights. If you were the NRA and in two weeks you got two comments on your blog on the elephant ban issue . . . and one comment was urging you to stand down . . . how would that impact your willingness and desire to get involved in similar issues in the future?

We should all be a little embarrassed.

Mike - Man, you really have hit the nail on the head and make a monstrous point!!!! I could not agree more. "Evil prevails, when good men do nothing", right???

Well, let me just say this...other than the mistake I made (with my very initial post going crazy over the 2 yr old lion shot in Zambia 4-5 yrs ago) and I'll call it a mistake - cause it was. Guys like Lane, George, myself and others tried desperately to educate our own, along with make changes in lion hunting and conservation activities that were long considered the norm, but way outdated.

Now certainly we got a lot of support, and we were instrumental in effecting change - including getting DSC and many others to adopt the "Huntable Lion" definition, etc. On the flip side - as you know, we caught a lot of grief from fellow sportsmen. Many of whom seemed to completely disregard the conservation message we tried desperately to give, but instead focused only on the issue of not liking the way we delivered the message, felt we were telling others what to do, etc, etc, etc. Please guys - lets don't rehash the whole issue, that's not my point. My point to Mike is that a lot of folks know that when you wade off into a hornet's nest - you are likely gonna get stung. Most folks don't want to get stung, so they avoid the issue/confrontation all-together.

Now me, I was passionate about the future of the African Lion - and I was willing to take the hits that I knew were sure to come. Not to say I did it all right, I make mistakes like everyone else. But often times folks are simply not willing to take the hits, or would prefer to stay out of it all-together. A very dangerous and losing mentality IMO, but too often the norm.

Not to mention, it took a lot of my time, energy and emotions!!!

The more we lay down on these issues, the more we lose. I've said it 100 times, I am not a fan of canned lion hunting!! But look back at everything I have ever said about it, including on my FB page last week. I support it, I support those who do it and I feel it has its place in the African hunting biz. Either we all stand united, or divided we will fall. Its our choice, what will it be?????

I agree the USFWS is screwing Africa with its meddling and their interference is tantamount to colonialism.

I think it would be more constructive for the likes or you and Larry to point out what we can do to help. I for one don't have money but I may have other skills that maybe of benefit.

For what it is worth, here is the other comment posted on the blog, will no one take up the banner and challenge the comment?

"John
January 08, 2015 06:22:21 am
im glad ivory sales are being banned. im an nra member and hunter, but elephants should not be hunted at all based on their low reproductive rate, scarcity and the fact that they are endangered and declining fast because of illegal poachers. The NRA should not be litigating the case with our money, and has no legal standing as foreign elephant hunting is not something anyone has a right to do or the federal government cannot regulate. I hope they lose this one and it is totally counterproductive to gun rights. I also think any american in zimbabwe where the genocidal dictator zimbabwe is should be arrested for violating sanctions on that nation. The NRA needs to stop worrying about ivory and using our money and political weight on fights like this that make us look bad."

Just a perspective from one who did not post whether I am right or wrong.
I have beat my head against the wall on other issues(political) trying to make a difference & never saw any positive results & only ran my blood pressure up, cost me money & sleep at night.
I have since put my efforts towards issues that I can control & change in the small world that I live in.
I applaud those with passion to take these things on & take the heat for their stance, I simply do not have that kind of passion anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
Just a perspective from one who did not post whether I am right or wrong.
I have beat my head against the wall on other issues(political) trying to make a difference & never saw any positive results & only ran my blood pressure up, cost me money & sleep at night.
I have since put my efforts towards issues that I can control & change in the small world that I live in.
I applaud those with passion to take these things on & take the heat for their stance, I simply do not have that kind of passion anymore.

Bwana, everyone is a politician. Some are better at it than others. The world is run by those that show up. We may not like it but that's the way it is and the sun will come up in the east tomorrow. Now there's something you can do nothing about and should not lose any sleep over.

Many people don't utilize social media.

Maybe we should start a running list of excuses. That way they can be cataloged for future use.

Let me ask folks this, do we believe that the folks at the Humane Society, PETA, the ASCPA and similar groups (i) have gotten tired of beating their heads against the wall, or (ii) do not use social media to sway opinion? Apathy and indifference is what sets them apart from us . . . we are largely apathetic and indifferent . . . they are not.

I missed the original posting.

However, all it takes is a little time to make a positive post and show support.

Provided the American Hunter review staff accept my comments, the following should appear ....

As a life member of the NRA, I applaud their efforts to protect my rights as both a gun owner and a hunter. The demand for ivory and associated illegal poaching has had devastating effects on certain populations, but in many areas of southern Africa, especially in communal concessions, Hunting Outfitters, funded by the legal, CITES regulated hunting of elephants, have been the most effective at protecting the area’s population and allowing growth. The elephant will have value either way … one method is very sustainable, protects the overall population and provides benefits to many. The other is devastating, wasteful, benefits very few, and threatens the very existence of the species. I’ve seen the results of both. I’ve watched almost every piece of a legally taken elephant recovered and utilized. I’ve watched villagers thankfully reduce the carcass to bones where even the vultures gave up. I’ve watched these same villagers tolerate crop loss because they knew the trophy fee and meat from a legally taken elephant would belong to them. I’ve seen trackers, skinners, camp staff and anti-poaching units, each with a family to support, benefit from the pay received for their amazing efforts. Unfortunately, I’ve seen the aftermath of the other method – illegal poaching for ivory. A rotted carcass with a chopped off face so the ivory could be quickly taken. The remaining hyenas or vultures would not touch the carcass. They were the survivors and had watched those less cautious fall victim to the same poison the elephant ingested. The USFWS lacks the competency to determine what’s appropriate for managing Africa’s wildlife, and their actions scream “political motivation”. Their ban on the import of legally taken ivory from Zim and Tan is not based on hard facts and science, and if they are allowed to continue these tactics unchecked, the American Hunter will soon be the most endangered of all.

They have a 2000 character limit apparently, so my rant had to be trimmed down.

This one doesn't, so ....

I once heard Craig Boddington, who I do respect, state on one of his videos that no one would think of hunting a tiger today because they truly are endangered. I must disagree with this. What would the population of tigers, as well as the habitat available for their survival, look like today if well-regulated, legal hunting existed? What if it were allowed now, given the current population? What would you pay for the opportunity (I'm biased because I've marveled at the beauty and ability of the tiger since I was a little kid). I believe the population would be much stronger and healthier, the habitat available would be greater, and their future would be secure.

The NRA took up our cause, as did SCI. I will support both.

Thanks for the heads Mike.

I posted a comment condemning the ban and explaining how legal hunting increases animals value to the local population. I don't normally keep up on these issues because elephant isn't something that I will ever be able to afford to hunt. Heck, I am still trying to afford my first Cape Buffalo hunt.

First off, I did not realize that this was a commentary request, rather a link to a website, and in general I don't follow links.

While I agree that we don't tend to stick together all that well, I certainly did not get that people's comments would help either.

Since you now said this I did make a comment, but to be honest, I don't know if that will help anything anyway. I would also point out that my comment was "being withheld pending staff review" which may indicate that comments are being back logged as well.

I will say that I support a number of groups financially on hunting issues,but while the NRA (and I am an endowment life member of the NRA) is a big group and a positive force for us, the fact that so many of their folks are compensated at the level that they are has caused a lot of folks to back away from supporting them.

The fact that there are so many orgs with a finger in the pie tends to dilute it, look at hunting orgs... how many are there, all with one animal as their issue, and they all will to some extent throw the rest of us under the bus for their one issue?

The one thing that the antis do have over us is that a larger number of the people running their orgs are willing to do it for free.

They are much more willing to accept a piecemeal approach and thus tolerate what they se as inperfections in their orgs than those of us who see what was the status quo as acceptable. After all, if you want hunting stopped, allowing the org to target just stopping elephant hunting is ok for you as a first step, but if you are a deer hunter, until your Ox is gored, you really have little motivation to fight an issue you see as euphemeral and more to the point,you don't want to spend your time or money on it, even if you think it might be wrong and starting a bad precedent.

Done
I must have missed it before
And of course some hunters are screwballs thinking banning hunts they can't go on is the answer
Those are truly our enemies as they are The Arnold Benedicts of hunting

Same here, thought it was a link to an informational post. Always happy to put forth intelligent points relied on. Since I will be hunting ele in 2017 again (regardless of importation ban if in place at that time) I will follow suit.


Dutch

I believe, we can all thank MJines for beat the drums and remind us about this
It's scary out there how many people want you to stop what you're doing and especially hunting.

Missed it the first time. Mike thanks for pointing it out.

I'm in with my .02cents now....


.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I believe, we can all thank MJines for beat the drums and remind us about this
It's scary out there how many people want you to stop what you're doing and especially hunting.

I second that!

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
And of course some hunters are screwballs thinking banning hunts they can't go on is the answer
Those are truly our enemies as they are The Arnold Benedicts of hunting

I am not against hunting I can't afford. I spoke up for hunting and against banning. I just don't pay much attention to hunting that I can't afford. I have been more concerned about efforts banning hunt here in the US that I can afford. Fact is I work two jobs and don't have much time for social media so the things that affect me will get most of that time.

thanks for this mike and GREAT point - yes as hunters we all need to stand together and be more proactive on social media - or else face the fact that when anti hunter groups can rally thousands of signatures - they can change our world ! if a politician gets 5 notes for something and 5000 against it ,w which way will he sway ?

Thanks to those of you that have weighed in with comments on the American Hunter site! They have posted a number of great comments. Hopefully you will be an inspiration to others to comment. I think it is important to not miss an opportunity to speak our mind. You never know who is watching and why.

Post count is going up! God work Mr. Jines!

Keep 'em comong folks.


.

Some may ask the question, why does it matter . . . why should I take a couple of minutes to make a post (in this instance or in other similar situations)? I will offer several possible reasons:

1. In this case, the NRA is weighing in on an important hunting-related issue. We should let them know we agree with them and encourage them to get involved in other hunting issues. The NRA is a force to be reckoned with and having them more involved in hunting issues would be a huge plus.
2. I am sure that there are many NRA members that believe what John believes. Let's not miss a chance to educate John and other similar members.
3. There are probably many members of the NRA and other groups that have not formed any opinion on this issue. This is a great opportunity to seek to educate them and bring them on board. A great opportunity to evangelize.
4. Anti-hunting groups undoubtedly monitor social media sites like the American Hunter site. Let them know hunters are paying attention and not shy about getting involved and expressing their opinions. You would not want them to print two comments and take that to a meeting with a legislator and say, "see hunters do not care about this issue and neither should you".

quote:

Just a perspective from one who did not post whether I am right or wrong.I have beat my head against the wall on other issues(political) trying to make a difference & never saw any positive results & only ran my blood pressure up, cost me money & sleep at night.I have since put my efforts towards issues that I can control & change in the small world that I live in.I applaud those with passion to take these things on & take the heat for their stance, I simply do not have that kind of passion anymore

I apparently misread MJ's original post & do not remember seeing Larry's post.
I have gone onto the NRA site & made a comment.

I posted the link but missed the portion about posting comments. I have just made a comment.

Some great comments posted. Well done gents.

Interesting and I'm not sure why but my comment, which was not profanity laced or vile, didn't make the cut to be posted. It was submitted at an earlier time than Larry's.

And I forgot to mention Joyce proofed it and thought it was good so I must have kept it reeled in.

Same as me, I submitted a response on Saturday and it is still not posted.

Thot it may be do to my semi-litrate South LA ejucashun.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Interesting and I'm not sure why but my comment, which was not profanity laced or vile, didn't make the cut to be posted. It was submitted at an earlier time than Larry's.

+1

My post, included word-for-word above, apparently didn't make the cut either. Apparently "John"'s condemnation of those of us who have hunted Zimbabwe and debates about the adequacy of a .223 to kill a whitetail are more palatable to the NRA Staff. Damn ... maybe we are our own worst enemies ....

I am curious why some made it and some didn't.

My post: As a life member I am very proud to see the NRA cast it's considerable weight on the side of elephant conservation. "John," you should really step back and consider your position; it smacks of the Jim Zumbo "black rifles" rant.

Glad to see my post was accepted.

Mike IS right!

Why doesn't the NRA allow ALL posts - unedited - to be posted??

What is the purpose of nit picking what gets posted?

Why "Moderate" posts before they are posted??

I gave up posting on other media websites because none of my posts ever made it!!

"Freedom of speech"?

It seems many only pay lip service to it!!

Crazy, and we call ourselves free society and 1st amendment is free speech
Go figure

I suspect that the reason that my comment is with held is that I said I support the NRA working with other orgs. My suspicion is that the NRA does not want to be even thought of as being one of many.

In any case, I am glad that they are taking a role in helping hunters.

Since my first comment did make the cut for some reason I put up a second. If you do not see it in the next day or two I recommend you all try the same one.



The true facts...... http://vimeo.com/user17366897/...116473289/88ae4be861

Frostbit,

That is an excellent idea, I have also put the link for the elephant and the pauper movie on the site. If 20 or so of us do the same then perhaps they will allow one of them to go through?

Chose not to publish my comments also......??????

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
Frostbit,

That is an excellent idea, I have also put the link for the elephant and the pauper movie on the site. If 20 or so of us do the same then perhaps they will allow one of them to go through?

Sorry Zig, looks like the NRA is being very selective in the comments they wish to post on the article.

Cheers
Jim