Will: you are probably in the wrong thread .

C.

Near the end of a recent 7-day PG safari in the Limpopo Prov. of RSA, my son and I were asked if we would like to hunt an old rogue male baboon that had been on his own for quite a while, having been kicked out of the local troop by the alpha male. He had been harassing the locals, raiding their gardens, etc. and had basically become a nuisance.

He hung out in a series of kopje's near a settlement where most of the safari company staff and their families lived. We would have to track him down and ultimately spend 4 or 5 hours running up and down these 150 to 200 foot high rocky hills until we could get a shot.

Side Note: I am 50 and carrying an extra 20 lbs. of hard earned food storage on my frame.

We had taken about all the animals we had hoped for and my then 17-year old son, jumped at the chance at taking a baboon, especially a nuisance animal.

So early the next morning of the 6th day, we made our way to this old male's hangout. After about a 2 hour hike/climb up several kopje's, he was spotted by our tracker sitting on the edge of a 150-foot cliff, looking away from us. With the wind howling and my huffing and puffing from the climb, my son urged me to take the first shot, which resulted in a clean miss and a quick exit by the baboon. I immmediately handed the rifle back and we continued our chase.

After another hour or so, the baboon in question was again spotted about 300 yards distant at full alert. He scrambled down the side of the next kopje and disappeared. A few minutes later, he made a break for it, 150-feet below our feet in a full run across the flats, toward the thick bush. Mark, my son, was urged by the PH to take a shot offhand, which he agreed to, missing clean just behind the running animal. He chambered another round, took careful aim and connected at about 280 yards. The baboon slide to a stop and was laying motionless as we made our climb down to him.

My son and the PH arrived first, found the baboon barely alive and Mark finished him with another shot to the spine. The first shot had entered his left butt pad as he ran and exited just in front of his right shoulder with everything in between a bloody mess. The PH stated that the second shot was not necessary, but was taken to end it quickly. It was a big male from the olive race that weighed at least 60 to 75 lbs. His front canines were worn down to about 1-1/2". He was very old, but in good physical condition.

Another note: the safari company owner shook our hands that evening around the fire and thanked both of us for taking care of the nuisance.

Now the ethics part of all this. A few weeks after we got back home (Ohio, USA), we got the pictures back, and several of our friends, who hunt, but not Africa, expressed great surprise that Mark had taken the shot offhand at such long range at a running target, at the PH's urging AND, more importantly, that I had let him. Such a hunt was not ethical and that the animal suffered unduly until we were able to climb down and administer the second shot. Their main gripe was the long range shot at a running target. The argument turned a bit nasty.

What's done is done. But, given the experience and expertise here on this forum, what is the general concensus as to the ethics or lack thereof with this baboon hunt?

All posts are appreciated. Just curious how this body of hunters would judge our actions.

You got to go to Africa, they didn't. Tell the jealous self centered bastards to go F#%K themselves. Just a suggestion. Pat your son on the back and remember the moment as the great one it was.

I see no ethical problems with the situation you told of.
Although it sounds like your son should have maybe taken the first shot!

Erik D.

I would take that shot 100 times out of 100. There is no ethics dilema here.

Damn fine shootin' I might add.

The only question of ethics I could see, would be if your son was not normally capable of such a shot. It sounds like he was very capable, I would congratulate him on very good shot, and ignor the folks that weren't there.

DGK

good shot no issue, I have taken a 250 metre shot at a large baboon and would take the shot again if i had the opportunity.

tm

RHS First off congratulations on your trip, those that would criticize such a awesome long range shot on any baboon or other varmit,are clueless and should take up a sport like golf. You should be very proud of Mark, GREAT SHOT!! Ben(rug)

Ladies & Gentlemen,

A lot of what you have all said here was a big part of my end of the debate about the ethics of this particular hunt. Mark, my son, made 6 great shots that safari taking 6 animals with a rifle he was very familar with...due to a lot of practice and preparation. Some of you may remember my hunt report and pics from the first of July.

At the time the shot was made, on top of that windy kopje, we all celebrated with him as we climbed down and he received many congrats at camp that night from most, but not all, believe it or not. One of the more experienced hunters thought it bad judgement on my part...go figure. So, I think 1115 may have hit the jealous thing on the head. My mind doesn't think that way, but evidently some folks just can't get past their own ego.

The friends I speak of were on another hunting forum that I won't name here. I had several who posted some heavy duty judgements against my ability as a father, hunter and sportsman. I closed with my own judgement that if half of these naysayers could hunt and shoot half as good as my teenage son, they might have some understanding about how well he really did over there. I have known quite a few full grown men who will probably never equal such a thing. I told the PH at the start of the 7-day hunt that Mark was probably as good a shot or better than his old man. And dang if he didn't prove me right.

Thanks for your posts and comments. I have a fear that my grandchildren may not have the freedom to enjoy the hunt like we do. I hope time proves me wrong...only it will tell...

I'm not about to cast the first stone.

Unless it's at your critics.

You got rid of a dangerous animal in that any child could have surprized the old baboon while it foraged a garden and the result could have been serious injury or death for the child. The damn thing was bad vermin and ethics don't apply, only the end result.

They questioned your fathering
I would question their parentage Tell the SOBs to get a life.
And as anyone who has hunted Africa knows, many times a finishing shot is required, no matter what the game or what it was shot with. You and your son both did fine.
Russ

This is the difference between sport hunting and control hunting. You went after a specific animal, not because of its head or hide, but because it had proven itself to be a threat to humans. In control hunting, you avoid being inhumane, but it's more important to kill the animal and end the threat. There's no sport about it, and you cannot expect people who have only hunted deer in Ohio to understand. Congratulate yourselves on having done an ugly chore well and don't talk to them about it anymore.

Okie John

Most - but not all - readers here have somewhat missed the "ethics" part of your question. But some have spotted and answered it: JohnTheGreek implicitly, HunterJim explicitly, DennisHP, Baboonbreeder in detail, and very nicely OkieJohn.



I can but chime in with these: the answer is really simple. It is the differentiation between "sporting" hunting (pleasure / trophy hunting) and hunting for another purpose (such as having to survive, or killing a nuisance or even dangerous animal). In the first case, many would regard such a shot as unethical. It the second case - which was present here - it was quite okay. And baboonbreeder's clear qualification of the necessary "aftercare" is *central* to the ethical judgement.



Congrats to your son and you,

Carcano

I think John Wayne (or Zell Miller) would be puking at the sensitivity of your friends. Grow up. Be a man. Quit being a wuss. What other cliches can I throw in here?



The baboon was going down, and did. So what's the problem?



The Democrats/liberal press don't like Cheney because he is one of the few men around these days. They should go **** themselves.



P.S.



Zell Miller probably did more to persuade the female vote than anyone else. Regardless of what they say, most women are looking for a real man, and they are getting damn hard to find these days.

Hi RHS..

No ethics issue here, Great shot, I wouldn't have even blinked about it...

Tell your X friends to piss off and get real.

Regards... Jim P.

This all happened in July and August and was all but forgotten, at least in my mind, until another individual saw the pics I had posted over 2 months ago at their request and questioned the taking of a baboon...

My purpose in petitioning this forum was to gain some greater insight into the choices I had to make over there in a short timeframe. This was my son's hunt (I did take a nice Bushbuck and Impala) and I was pleased that he took the challenge to remove a pest.

Our society is changing how others think and all the negative BS that was being flung about over this one animal was beginning to pick away at my resolve. Thanks for helping to restore my confidence in my own ethics and morals.

I agree, that taking such a shot at a running trophy animal is seldom the right choice. I have never taken such a shot and would not consent to my son making one either. But this was no trophy, only a wonderful memory of a hard job well done between a father and son. Sometimes the hard thing to do is the right thing to do.

Man has always killed for food and in defense. Sport hunting is a ritualized version of what we once had to do to survive. It�s a reenactment of our participation in nature, a sobering reminder that the circle of life is also a circle of death. For most of us, it is a near-religious experience, and that�s appropriate, as it invokes sacrifices ordained in the Old Testament and I think (help me here, Saeed) the Koran.

But we�ve only killed to protect crops since the Bronze Age, or about 4,000 years. Control hunting is killing to eliminate competition. That seems unfair, and that�s why it�s so hard to swallow � we don�t do it to sustain human life directly.

Will I do it again? Yes. Sometimes it needs to be done. But I will not mistake it for sport hunting again.

PM me if you have questions.

Okie John

Well call me a dog if you like...but I have often attempted difficult to impossible shots at nuisance animals. Hyena, Baboons, jackals...fox...perhaps it is not the ideal ethical standpoint. Quite often these nuisance animals are quite aware of us and the fact that they will be shot on sight...this does make them quite difficult to shoot, and many times the impossible shot works out to be surprisingly possible. For me - I see these shots as a great opportunity to get to know your rifle better, get to know your own capabilities better and build your confidence & performance.

As long as you take the same time to follow up an animal in the event of a bad hit with the same level of attention and dedication that you would apply to a thousand dollar trophy fee. Which your son seems to have done, and I can say - with a clear conscience - I too have always done. Admittedly once or twice the follow up has been unsuccessful but certainly not for lack of effort.

Throughout our hunting lives we will come to face certain challenges - some of them more important than others, being able to react quickly to a situation, and shoot accurately may one day save yours or someone elses life...or at the very least, save you a few hundred/thousand dollars and several hours and maybe even days of tracking, which pretty much boils down to the same thing.

I am not sure that the people with whom you were speaking were jealous, or maybe just inexperienced. Ethics in hunting is a huge topic and ultimately each of us will draw his or her own boundaries. The degree of flexibility you will allow yourself or your fellow hunters to apply to your own ethical decisions is entirely up to you. And I think at the end of the day certain people may not agree with you, but as long as most of your peers & hunting companions respect you as a hunter and as a person, you are on the right track....so balls to the rest of them!

It seems everyone has missed the point. If you had made your boy take the first shot, then there wouldn't be any ethics question (which there ain't anyway) ).

People that get all wrapped up in this kind of stuff obviously live in the city and don't have nuisance critters any larger than the occasional rat bothering them.

Your son made a very nice shot.

Your friends must be from La La land...I have shot many a running animal at up to 300 yards off hand..If a shot presents itself and it looks doable and within your skills, then take it..

Where I live and have hunted mule deer a 200 to 300 yard shot running or standing is probably the norm.

Tell your friends all hunting is not out of a stand waiting for a whitetail buck to turn broadside before you bushwhack him, like on the TV hunting channals, and in real life you don't even have to whisper after you kill the animal!!

Good shot and congratulations, but start hanging with real hunters, please!

I fully agree on the shot and would have taken it myself.

Now to expand on some of the logic offered -

My sons and I started hunting in Texas - whitetails. We were novices, sort of, and hunted over the traditional feeder (timer to go off twice daily), from a blind that is more like a kid's treehouse. We dressed in camo, hid in the blind at daylight, heard the feeder do it's thing and in came the deer at a trot. We shoot the nice 8 pointer that is fat as a tick and are happy with ourselves.

Next trip - we hunt doves and teal near Katy, TX. Big rules and comments about not hunting "baited" fields. My sons ask - "Dad, what is the difference between shooting deer over a feeder and doves or ducks over bait?"I have no answer as I had not thought about it enough. I quit deer hunting over feeders as it made each of us uncomfortable. Same with hunting in high fenced areas in Texas for exotics. We are choosing to hunt every other year in Africa or somewhere free range.




We went to a released bird place, where they put out the pheasants or quail to hunt. Both boys liked the shooting but thought the farce was what it was. I had to agree. We don't do that anymore either.

I credit a lot of these questions from them as having come from attending the New Mexico hunters education program which dealt a lot with ethics. Hopefully a new generation a of hunters is coming that will hunt ethically.

Paul K,

Where is Big Prairie, Ohio? Thanks for the post.

Rick R,

My son's pride and joy is an out-of-the-box Ruger M77 All-Weather, SS barreled-action and synthetic stock with a 3x9 Leupold Vari-X in 300WSM that he shot an average of 10 shots a week for 6 months, rain or shine before we got on the plane for Africa.

He also took an old bull S.G. Kudu at 275 yds. off shooting sticks, that was silhouetted on a kopje, through the neck with one shot, his first trophy animal in Africa. Yeah, I know I'm doing the proud Daddy thing, but that was how he started out and just kept getting better from there. He says that rifle feels like it is part of his body.

We are planning a leopard for him/buff for me with some PG hunt for the fall of 2007.

Thanks for your post.

RHS:
Ethics? Isn't that someone elses opinion of whats right and wrong? Anyway,Your friends opinions and two dollars will buy them a beer at most bars.Thats about all they're worth.
By the way, Hi neighbor.

Paul R. Kawczk
Just south of Nashville,Ohio

RHS;
Big Prairie,OH. is my mailing address because Nashville,OH. only has general delivery.I live 2 miles south of Nashville,OH. 8 miles east of Loundonville off of RT.39.
It's nice to have a neighbor this close that shares the same interests that we do!

Paul & Charlotte Kawczk

Nuisance animal control, predator control (not sport hunting), etc is war. The Marquis of Queensbury's rules do not apply. Sounds like your son was using a weapon capable of killing quickly with a shot to the thorax and was capable of making that shot at long range.



Would it have been better for the locals to snare or poison the animal? If he had whacked the baboon through the lungs at 300yds with a .22lr and left it to die as he went for a cold beer, now THAT would have been unethical/inhumane. He did what he should have done, quite well from the sounds of it.



He did what he was asked to do, eliminate a threat. If he feels alright with the outcome screw the monday morning quarterbacks.

Paul K.

That makes you about 1 hour northeast of me...neighbors indeed. I am off 661 south, about 15 mins. south of Mt. Vernon.

We'll have to keep that in mind for furure's sake.

Richard (Rick) Sim

As a Psych and Sociology professor, who also teaches an Ethics course, I say "Well Done!" Give your son another pat on the back. He did it right, including the coup-de- gras shot. Wish I'd had a father like you 40-50 years ago.

Normally I am more polite than this. All I have to say is piss on them. They were not there, you were. It was you and your sons call. Congrats on a fine shot and ridding the locals of a potential threat.

hmmmm. I see no problem with the result. I don't think the fact that the animal did not die quickly a fault of the shot. Some animals are just more tenacious than others. Now, taking the shot to begin with might have been risky and some may not have taken it on other non-nuisance plains game animals but the outcome was fine.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

I'd have done the same without the urging of the PH. No problems here.

I see no problem with the events.

He should be proud of the shot and the armchairs back home should hold their toungues.

I think you and your son did the right thing. Generally speaking, I strive to take ethical/humane shots at game. However, I would hesitate to take a long/marginal shot at a turkey-eating coyote. I imagine that I would take a similar approach to your predicament.

Now that I think of it, I do not know of any fellow hunters that would have been that critical of you. Maybe some non-hunters. There may be some truth in in what 1115 said and they may be a little envious and trying to find something to burst your bubble with.

George

I have no ethical problem shooting at a running animal offhand. If the PH says not to, I won't. But most of my hunting does not include a PH and I feel free to pull the trigger if I think I have a good shot at the game, even if it is running.

I agree with 1115 (and everyone else on this thread),
Tell those jealous poofters to take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. Your son made a heck of a good shot.
After your next trip go to Judge G's house for the show and tell. The hospitality will be of a much higher class.
JCN

What's the ethic of not taking the shot, letting the animal escape to continue his harassing the locals, raiding their gardens, and basically remaining a nuisance? Seems a no-brainer to me.