(Not sure if this is the best forum, but here goes)


Generally speaking, how accurate are the Rigbys, Westley Richards, Holland & Hollands, etc bolt actions of yesteryear?

Now, sub MOA is the 'standard' that any good rifle should shoot all day.

I've started looking at small and medium bore vintage hunting rifles and want to have realistic expectations if I pull the trigger on one. (pun intended).

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
(Not sure if this is the best forum, but here goes)


Generally speaking, how accurate are the Rigbys, Westley Richards, Holland & Hollands, etc bolt actions of yesteryear?

Now, sub MOA is the 'standard' that any good rifle should shoot all day.

I've started looking at small and medium bore vintage hunting rifles and want to have realistic expectations if I pull the trigger on one. (pun intended).

Expect about 1 1/2” groups at 100 for a decent shooting one.

Old guns are nowhere near as accurate as modern ones.

I have tried them all, tried factory and reloads.

Not a single one would match a modern rifle made today in accuracy.

I bet the reason is barrels, and probably action locktime.

Wouldn't the accuracy of a rifle be related to the quality of material and design of the barrel?
It would make sense to assume that the older generation of rifle barrels were produced from inferior quality steel than that which is available today and further to that, being old might also be an indication of having been well used and looking at a worn barrel with less accuracy.

It also seems to be an undisputed opinion that the Mauser 98 action is hard to beat from aspects of reliability and safety, placing it in high demand especially when constructing a new rifle, so logically speaking, that would exonerate the action as being the culprit for inaccuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Old guns are nowhere near as accurate as modern ones.

I have tried them all, tried factory and reloads.

Not a single one would match a modern rifle made today in accuracy.

I bet the reason is barrels, and probably action locktime.

Three times in one - we agree. The Lord is coming back!

I agree. I have owned 10+ vintage guns (defined as made before 1980 - my random choice). None shoot as well as guns made in the last 15 years. I have burned throw maybe 50 rifles in the last 10 years looking for the holy grail. The best so far for factory ammo? A Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather in .300 WM - shot Barnes factory ammo in the same hole. HS Precision rifles are there as well.

I tried several pre-64 Model 70's. All shot 2" groups and not consistently.

I tried a Rigby bolt rifle in .275 Rigby - 3" was the best I could get.

Dakota's were ok, but not superlative.

For my money, I will shoot what I like. If I like it a lot and need more accuracy, I will try hand loads or get a match grade barrel.

So far, my Blaser's have all shot factory ammo to 1/2" groups in 6 different calibers. I am very impresses with the Blaser.

Yes I know, some here don't like them, but they shoot.

Further, I am having a couple of customs made right now on Mauser actions, so I will see just how good a Mauser action can be with a match barrel.

Why am I doing this??? For fun....

I am almost certain it is actually due to manufacturing.

Lately companies use more accurate machines.

I used to make my bullets on a CNC machine over twenty years ago.

Worked great but could not hold the accuracy in manufacturing as a new one we got 2 years ago.

I bet the same goes for other parts.

The camp rifle I shoot when hunting in Namibia is a Mauser is a 8 X 68 mm shooting 200 grain handloads. My PH calls it the “Hammer of Thor” because of the many one shot kills I’ve had using it on larger game such as Eland, Kudu and Waterbuck. On smaller plains game such as Springbok and Warthogs I shoot his Ruger 77 in .308. I call it the “Anvil of Thor” because it is so heavy with a varmint barrel and suppressor.

Question asked and answered. However I must say that my experience with pre-64 Model 70's is contrary to Dogcat's. I have probably had maybe three dozen or more and only one featherweight, a .308 could not be made to shoot under 1 MOA.

I’d agree that a complete vintage (in my book that’s pre ‘64, but even for a while after) a 2MOA gun is better than average.

However, put a modern barrel on it and it becomes MOA most of the time.

Have someone who knows what they are doing completely go over it, and they are usually better than I can shoot.

I think ammunition, especially bullets, and barrel quality (more machining tolerances than anything) have been the big improvement areas.

If you want to include a Hoffman Arms .375 H&H as a vintage.....

Mine was built in 1940 on a 1938 Wincheaster action with the original Hoffman barrel. It shot 1 1/2" goops at 100 yards with factory Federal loaded 300 gr. TSX.

With handholds I have it down to 3/4 MOA.

Walter Bell used to shoot birds on the wing with a .318 WR caliber bolt rifle. I think the rifle was a Westley Richards. He said it kept him sharp for elephant hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Walter Bell used to shoot birds on the wing with a .318 WR caliber bolt rifle. I think the rifle was a Westley Richards. He said it kept him sharp for elephant hunting.

It is very likely Bell used the same rifle on elephant as Kynoch supplied solids for it as well.
I also had a Westley Richards .318 and it worked just fine on everything, including elephants.

A table described as "Accuracy of Oberndorf Mauser Sporting Rifles", 1910 Mauser source, appears in the appendix of "Mauser Bolt Rifles", Olson. It indicates that for a 173 grain 7x57 load, a 10-round group had a 2 inch vertical and horizontal dispersion at 55 yds yards. 3.9 vertical and 2.9 horizontal at 109 yds.

I guess an issue I have comparing the two is that all my larger bore vintage rifles over the years have been open sighted only, with only my H&H Flanged Mag double having scope, whereas all modern ones I have mainly used a scope even if they have open sights.

But I think modern magazine rifles are more inherently accurate than even forty years ago.

I’ve shot rifles, shotguns and pistols my whole life. My father is a gun nut. I think I might be. I’ve never known what MOA stands for. Not sure I do now. It either goes where you want it to or not. I would think so long as the rifling is good and mechanics sound, she shoots!

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
I’ve shot rifles, shotguns and pistols my whole life. My father is a gun nut. I think I might be. I’ve never known what MOA stands for. Not sure I do now. It either goes where you want it to or not. I would think so long as the rifling is good and mechanics sound, she shoots!

That's the funny thing about animals, they never let you shoot a group at them.

quote:

I tried several pre-64 Model 70's. All shot 2" groups and not consistently.

My experience differs!
My 1953 Model 70 FWT .308 that I purchased used in early 1960s has always shot sub minute of angle. ( 5/8 inch groups at 100 yards )
It has been very accurate with hand loads and factory ammo of 150 and 165 grains. It has held the same zero for over 3 decades (no scope adjustments).

quote:

That's the funny thing about animals, they never let you shoot a group at them.

Axel, with my M70, no group is needed as the first shot usually puts meat on the table.

My 1903 Springfield built my Adolph Wundhammer will still group 5 shots under an inch at 100 yards ! And that's with iron sights !

Accuracy is nice but not essential to success with an old rifle. My first rifle was an open-sighted ex-army .303 which would shoot key holes in a big cardboard box at 100yds. It taught me to stalk deer REALLY close then shoot them where they were biggest. I hunted with a very successful Maori culler in the NZ Forest service who, despite never using the scope on his .222, still brought in more tails than me. I had a shot with it and the scope was mis-mounted and shooting 2ft high and to the right at 25 yards. He was amazed what that rifle would do when I remounted the scope.

I have Sako’s that are 50 years old that are true 3/4” rifles with no work to them at all. In fact I am being conservative on how some of them will group. I also have/had Winchester pre 64 Model 70’s in .270 Win and .264 Win Mags that shoot 3/4” 100 yd groups.

quote:

I have Sako’s that are 50 years old that are true 3/4” rifles

Even 70 year-old Sakos are thoroughly "modern" rifles and used some of the best barrels available from the start. A Rigby or H&H from the 1930's really can't be compared to a Sako, all of which came into being after WW-II.

I have a collection of standard factory and custom pre-64 Winchester Model 70s. My Go To hunting rifles... most will shoot MOA with factory ammo and reloads better.... they Do Me Just Fine!!
Yes, you can shoot them out too... but I baby my mine...