The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Calling on the experts for some advice, please.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Calling on the experts for some advice, please. | Login/Join |
One of Us |
The most wonderful man in the world has acquired a Churchill 404 bolt-action rifle for me to possibly use on our 2010 cape buffalo hunt. I have not yet had the chance to shoot it, but like the feel and weight of it. My question is: Is the 404 adequate for cape buffalo? And any comments on the probable increase in the recoil over the 375 I currently shoot (which has a muzzle brake)? He tells me the Churchill weighs 8.5 pounds and has what's described as three leaf iron sights. I have practiced working the bolt and "dry shooting" with no rounds in the chamber. I like the bolt function and the trigger pull, but the safety is completely different from what I am used to. It has a three-position safety at the back of the bolt. Admittedly, I don't know much about this. Apparently this is quite a gun as he seems to pamper it like a newborn baby. Do I want to use it or not? | ||
|
One of Us |
404 is adequate for a cape buff. so will the 375 H&H it all depends on how accurate you can shoot the rifle as well as good shot placement. Gerhard FFF Safaris Capture Your African Moments Hunting Outfitter (MP&LP) Proffesional Hunter (MP&LP) History guide Wildlife Photographer www.fffsafaris.co.za | |||
|
One of Us |
You definitely don't want to use it. Please send it directly to me and I will dispose of it properly. Seriously, I can think of no better rifle to take to Africa. A .404 loaded with quality bullets at 2250 f.p.s. will wear a buffalo out about as well as any caliber. That said, I agree with Gerhard. A well aimed bullet from a .375 will kill any buffalo. Don't take a rifle just to please your boyfriend. Take what you shoot best, and all being equal, I'd take the .404! I suggest you get your prospective hubby to get you some Tally QD mounts and a 1.5-5x Leupold scope. I think you'll find that you don't need a muzzle brake if you invest in a quality recoil pad and modify the stock properly to your dimensions. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
|
One of Us |
The .404 is one of the older, tried and tested calibres, in which many an old time "White Hunter" put his faith - it was a workhorse, and a favourite. It is more than adequate for your buffalo hunt. Dryfiring it without anyhing in the chamber is not recommended, damage to the firing pin may occur, so rather put an EMPTY case in the chamber. As for your other concerns, just undestand one thing. Do not come to Africa on a dangerous game hunt with a weapon you are not familiar with, or haven't the experience to handle. Recoil is part of shooting - accept it, and get used to it; muzzle breaks do limit the amount of recoil you will feel, however those in your hunting party will not like it, especially your PH !! The noise and shockwave dispersal are most discomforting (not for you!!) You will get lots of advice on this forum, but truthfully the best thing for you to do is get comfortable with your rifle. Otherwise, I hope you have an awesome time. Good luck. | |||
|
One of Us |
Nice gun! 8.5lbs sounds a little light. Will there be a scope on it? The recoil will greatly depend on the final weight of the rifle (if you have extra scope weight) and the loads you shoot. A 400 grain bullet at 2300-2400fps will kick a lot more than a 400 grain bullet at 2150fps. Both however will kill a cape buffalo. Here's data I pulled from a recoil calculator for a 400 grain bullet at the two different velocities and with two different rifle weights. 400 grain bullet at 2300fps with a 8.5lbs rifle: Impusle: 5.59 Velocity: 21.18 Energy: 59.19 That's a lot of recoil relative to a .375H&H. 400 grain bullet at 2150fps with a 8.5lbs rifle: Impusle: 5.09 Velocity: 19.29 Energy: 49.13 That's more recoil than a .375H&H, but not a lot more. So if we assume the rifle is now scoped which adds an extra pound of weight the rifle now weighs 9.5lbs. 400 grain bullet at 2300fps with a 9.5lbs rifle: Impusle: 5.59 Velocity: 18.95 Energy: 52.96 Again that's still a more recoil relative to a .375H&H, but a lot less recoil than when the gun weighed only 8.5lbs. 400 grain bullet at 2150fps with a 9.5lbs rifle: Impusle: 5.09 Velocity: 17.26 Energy: 43.96 That's almost identical recoil to a .375H&H. Of course my comments about recoil are relative to an unbraked .375H&H. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
|
| One of Us |
+1 Good advice. Absolutely make sure the rifle fits you properly. That will make a huge difference in how the recoil is received! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
|
| one of us |
Please post pictures of both yourself and the rifle!!!!!! Having said that, the above is all excellent advice from some really ugly guys. Personally despite the romance of the 404, if you are comfortable with the 375 I would use it. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| one of us |
A 400gr .404 bullet at @2125fps is plenty good for cape buff. I would use Woodleigh Softs and Solids. If you find the recoil of this too much, then Shoot the try 375 H&H with 300gr Woodleigh's at 2200fps... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you are a petite woman then stay with the rifle that has a muzzel break and discuss with your PH how you want to end up shooting your buffalo. Do you want to get close and personal or shoot it like some at 165 yards? If you want to look him in the eye, then take the rifle that you can handle and follow up quickly with. Buffalo are not forgiving! And I am no expert. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
|
| one of us |
HWTB, At this point I'd stick with your 375. Westley gives me the impression you can shoot it and that is more important than anything else. So when are you guys going to book something? The 2010 season is just around the corner. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
|
One of Us |
IMHO, you will be better off with a scoped .375 than an iron sighted .404. Not to say that a .404 will not work; for it will certainly kill a cape buffalo. It's just that a scoped .375 will not only work just as well, but will also be substantially more user-friendly than the .404 - even without a muzzle brake. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
|
One of Us |
And even if you want to look him in the eye, be prepared to shoot at 165 yds. Actually on my last safari I took both a 404 and a 375. If you can shoot both, either one is an African classic. My buff was taken with the 404 at 165 yds. Caleb | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thank you for all the replies. JudgeG... your kind offer to take the rifle and dispose of it properly is duly noted, but unnecessary. Nonetheless, a very gentlemanly response. There are plans to put a new recoil pad on it, but probably not a scope as that would be an alteration to the original state of the gun. (Note earlier reference to treating it as a newborn.) While not petite height-wise, I don't weigh in at much so the weight of the gun is a bit of an issue. I will be shooting it over the Thanksgiving holidays and so will have an opportunity then to take some pictures of it. In preparation for the trip and a successful hunt, I am shooting regularly in a variety of conditions and at varying lengths from the target. So I guess I understand that whichever gun I am most comfortable with after further practice with both is the one I should take. | |||
|
| One of Us |
In that case I'd stick with the .375, but you might as well try the .404 loaded down to 2150fps or so. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
|
one of us |
The 404 is a classic African buffalo chambering, and the rifle he bought you is a very desirable historical piece, and should be Africa bound. Haveing said that what you need to do is have your Boy friend load up some light loads for you and steadily work up to full loads. The 404 is not that much more than a 375 H&H in regard to recoil. You can handle it if you work up to it. Since you both are going, what you should do is take both the 375H&H and the 404, and what ever he is shooting. I'm sure he will be taking a Buffalo too, so you can use the 404, and he can use his rifle, and the 375 H&H can be used by both of you for plains game. Three rifles for two people is not uncommon. IMO, unless you find you simply can't shoot the 404, you can always take the 375 H&H which you shoot now, but I'd take all three in this case! .................Good hunting, and congratulations on the fine 404 rifle!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
|
| one of us |
having used both, I'd suggest that you use the 404 so long as you can shoot it comfortably. Both will, without question, work just fine on Buffalo. The bigger bullet does, however, hit with more authority. If you can't shoot the 404 comforably, than use your 375 and don't think twice about it. While a lot of people here advocate loading the 404 to levels up to 2300 fps, the traditional loading of a 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps has always worked just fine. I'd suggest sticking with the standard load. | |||
|
one of us |
Whilst the 375 is a great calibre, it does have it's limitations, esp with less than top quality bullets on (for example) on a frontal chest shot on buff, whereas the 404 is considerably more effective on the same scenario. Therefore, I'd suggest you try the 404 and if you find the recoil a bit drastic, you have a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor fitted and then try it again. If you can handle the 404, it'll always be a better option for a big game hunt. FWIW, I have a 404 made by Sabi Rifles in RSA (which I load to 2200) and fitted with a mercury tube.It shoots like a dream and the recoil can be handled even by a teenager without any problems. | |||
|
One of Us |
Using iron sights will require you to be within close quarters of the Buffalo. Shot placement is paramount as much as a well constructed bullet. I feel Wes will have that covered. I would put a Sims recoil pad on it and get yourself either a Sims shooters vest with the recoil insert or a Bob Allen recoil shoulder pad. They will make a differenct in felt recoil. Muzzle brake??? Blasphemy!  Regards, David Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
|
| one of us |
Don't shoot the thing from a bench. From field positions, you should be able to handle it. However, recoil tolerance is personal. Some can take it, some cannot. If not, then shoot a 460 Weatherby a couple of times and go back to the 404. It will be easy to shoot then! Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
|
| one of us |
firstly what a lucky lucky man your husband is that you want to hunt with him and are taking it so seriously. 404 jeffery is a superb caliber for buff, 8.5 is a tad light, but doable if you have a good recoil pad... you might want to have a low power scope to give you a longer reach, but there is no doubt that you'll end up shooting a buff within 100m. I have hunted with women hunters before and coached them in their shooting practice before their hunting.... my advice is fire your rifle with a shoulder recoil pad(past or some other brand) to take the edge off the recoil and from sticks... shoot a light caliber to get your eye in first then... several full power rounds at the end of the session. we don't often have access to full caliber rifles in singapore, so we practice wih .22 bolt actions for accuracy and form and 12g 3inch magnum shells for recoil training. a series of 6-10 sessions should get you familiar and confident with your rifle. oh and also my feel of a 404jeff and 375 h&h in recoil is no real difference as long as the rifle stock fits you well.... the worst recoil bruise i've ever had was from a badly fitting 375 h&h.... the 500 NE was stout, but no where near as painful. good luck, happy hunting and tell your hubby he should be thanking his lucky stars that you share in his love of the great outdoors cheers, TM "one of the most common african animals is the common coolerbok(or coleman's coolerbok). Many have been domesticated and can be found in hunting camps, lodges and in the back of vehicles." | |||
|
| One of Us |
As always, you have given me much good advice and some things to follow up on. This is definitely one of those topics where the more you know, the more you realize there is to know! | |||
|
One of Us |
I would consider having the gun sighted in with the hunting loads and doing your practice with lighter loads. Confidence and comfort is important during practice. In the field you will not notice the recoil at all. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Calling on the experts for some advice, please.
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia