Would a 9.3 be sufficient, with a premium bullet, for cape buffalo? I have read that the caliber has been used in Africa for a long time. If it were loaded with a Barnes X, Failsafe, or Nosler Partition bullets, would if be powerful enough? What grain bullets?

I understand it may not be a legal caliber for DG now. This is for curiosity and discussion only.

I have used it and seen it used many times, the normal reaction is the buffalo takes a good hit and runs 50 yards and tips over dead...Many of our female clients, younger boys have used it along with the 9.3x74 double rifle with good results...best to use a solid IMO with the smaller calibers for facing shots and softs for broadside shots...I like the Northfork softs and cup points backed up with flatnose solids..however I have had very good luck with my hot loaded 9.3x62 with a 26 inch tube shooting buff with a 320 gr. Woodlieh soft at 2350 FPS, also in the solid...A 286 Nosler worked well on the one buff I shot with that bullet, two in the shoulder and one solid going away and he went about 50 to 75 yards, about like what I expect with any caliber...or shoot them where the neck joins the shoulder and drop them on the spot, run up and give a couple of quick ones...

Use North Fork cup nose or Bridger solids in that 9.3 and you will be very pleased.

I have enjoyed shooting a couple Cape Buffalo with the 9.3x62 and participated in a hunt of one taken with this caliber .Ether 300grn SWIFT A FRAMES or WOODLEIGH 286grn solids were used on these Buff with good results.
Good Hunting, Adam C.

Used a Bruno (CZ) in 9,3x62 for most of the buffalo culling ops I took part in. Used RWS TUG's Worked fine for frontal shots (most of our shots were frontal's as the buff were driven on to us with a helicopter)

Now use 286grn Premium softs for buff, and lion and woodleigh solids for ele.

You do not get the spectacular "knock downs" with the 9,3 that I have seen using calibers like the .505, and the buff can run a fair distance when hit with a solid, but it works, and in a light to carry, pleasant to shoot rifle.

I would hunt Buffalo with a 9.3X62, or it's ugly balistic twin 9.3X74R useing the North Fork cup points. Though it is light, and in many case minimum for that animal, I'd happily use the 9.3X62 in a good CRF DGR, or the 9.3X74R in a good S/S double rifle, but I wouldn't reccomend it to some one I didn't know! If the person is a Buffalo hunter, and has a good understanding of the Buff's anatomy, it is a good choice for culling where hundreds of rounds may be fired in a short time. If I don't know the person asking, then I'd reccomend no smaller than the 375 H&H,CRF bolt rifle, and better yet, a .400 cal double! rifle!

quote:

I would hunt Buffalo with a 9.3X62,

MacD37 and other (Ray, etc):

I am real curious about this topic. Its unfortunate that this comes up while that other thread is raging on. To be abundantly clear I am not trolling here, nor do I advocate the use of a 45/70 on buffalo....but here is my question...

How does one advocate the 9.3x62 on buff but not a 45/70??

A 9.3x62 does not duplicate the 375 H&H. Its MUCH closer to a 35 Whelen. The 9.3x64 does closely match the 375 H&H, but its a very different cartridge despite the similar nomenclature.

Without loading the 9.3x62 to dangerous pressures, its not even legal in most countries for cape buff. It makes the 3900'ish ft-lb energy requirement no more easily than the 45/70 with hot 400gr loads.

Anyway, I know the 9.3x62 is a fine cartridge, I just don't understand how it is OK for buffalo and some other cartridges that also fall just short of the energy requirement are not. The logic seems REALLY inconsistent to me, and there isn't much that bothers me more than illogical conclusions.

For instance, couldn't someone say the exact same thing about the 45/70...

quote:

I'd happily use the 9.3X62 in a good CRF DGR, or the 9.3X74R in a good S/S double rifle, but I wouldn't reccomend it to some one I didn't know! If the person is a Buffalo hunter, and has a good understanding of the Buff's anatomy, it is a good choice for culling where hundreds of rounds may be fired in a short time.

Is it just because of the jackasses that spout off about the 45/70 being the greatest thing for buff since sliced bread?

Its a shame that the troll threads about the 45/70 keep us from having serious discussion about matters like this, so TIA for your serious consideration of my serious question,
Canuck

I guess it is a metric thing ! Just like a 7 x 57 is equal to or superior than a 280 rem.

I should really stay out of this, but can't you get a >.300 sectional density bullet over 2000 FPS more easily from the 9.3s?

I should stay out of this too but I would think the 9.3 probably has much better penetration.

I'm not too sure that it would actually get much better penetration. Sounds like a good experiment for RIP's Iron Buffalo though!

Cheers,
Canuck

Well, this has been hashed out before. but since you asked I will answer you with my opinnion..and I could write volumes on the very subject, but the bottom line is that I have used both calibers and the 9.3x62 just kills much much better than the 45-70 which is a very poor killer of big animals IMO and my experiences, regardless of the claims I hear..but anyone that wants to use the 45-70 and buys off on its killing power is certainly welcome to have at it...

Bottom line is a 286 gr. bullet at 2520 FPS or a 320 gr. woodleig at 2350 to 2400 FPS will out penitrate, out expand and kill better than a stubby 400 gr. 45 cal. bullet at 1600 to perhaps 1800 FPS..providing were talking lever action gun in the 45-70..Not a Ruger No.1 or bolt action that always comes into play with the 45-70 crowd trys to make a point..granted you can near make a 458 with a 45-70 in a Ruger No. 1, but why would be my question...If someone wants a raging 45-70, the buy a .458 to start with.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

A 9.3x62 does not duplicate the 375 H&H. Its MUCH closer to a 35 Whelen.

The 375 H&H has been shown to penetrate best when shooting a 300 grain bullet at 2300 to 2450 fps. It seems that when the velocity goes above 2450 fps, the bullets begin to yaw and penetration is compromised. (Perhaps that is also the reason why 460 Wby's with factory loads do not do so great.)

The 9.3 x 62 pushes a 286 grain bullet at 2450 fps with no pressure issues out of 2 of my 3 rifles in that caliber (did not chronograph the third one). So what we are really talking about is 14 grains difference in bullet weight, and 0.009" difference in bullet diameter. These differences are negligible. I know this is a slippery slope and soon we will be talking about the suitability of a .222 for DG hunting.

Now let's look at the 45-70 shooting 500 grain bullets. I do not wish to consider 400 grain 45 caliber bullets because the sectional density is too low to be taken seriously. Randy Garrett, the greatest proponent of the 45-70 for DG, loads a 500 grain solid to 1530 fps. In contrast, the 450 Nitro Express (also the 470 NE) push a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. I am guessing that an additional 600 fps, which is a 39% jump in velocity, has something to do with the greater effectiveness of the 450 NE and 470 NE. Also note that guys who used early 458 Win Mags pushing 500 grains at 1900 fps saw very poor penetration. Knocking off 400 fps doesn't seem like a good idea in light of that.

We took about 80% of the animals on our Tanzanian trip with the 9.3x62. It was more than enough gun for the game we shot, and the 286gr Nosler Partition penetrated my zebra and my eland side to side without noticeable deformation upon exiting. It was used to kill my oryx which was shot in the left rear and the bullet recovered from the left chest muscle. It was so stout that I decided against using it for lion and limited its use to only very large animals and raking shots.

For anything but buffalo and for other than raking shots on larger antelope the 250BT is sufficient for plains game. My practice of two BT's over three Partitions was a good mix. When the chance came for my Dik Dik, I withdrew the BT and inserted a Woodleigh.

The 9.3 kills out of proportion to its paper ballistics, although with handloaded, mine comes real close to duplicating 375HH factory loads. The reason for this is twofold: its bullets have a very high ballistic coefficient (the 250BT's is .495 or thereabouts and the 286 Partitions are close to .400), and the velocities are modest (2400fps for the 286gr bullets). This is why it is acceptable and the 45/70 is marginal.

The 45/70's BC isn't close to that of the 9.3 and the velocities for .458 bullets that have the BC are well below those of the 9.3x62.

I don't have the experience shooting buff with it that Ray and other have, but I would not hesitate to use it and it was our "back up" to my son's 375HH for buffalo on our hunt. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

I would hunt Buffalo with a 9.3X62,

MacD37 and other (Ray, etc):

How does one advocate the 9.3x62 on buff but not a 45/70??

A 9.3x62 does not duplicate the 375 H&H. Its MUCH closer to a 35 Whelen. The 9.3x64 does closely match the 375 H&H, but its a very different cartridge despite the similar nomenclature.


Its a shame that the troll threads about the 45/70 keep us from having serious discussion about matters like this, so TIA for your serious consideration of my serious question,
Canuck

YEH, it's a shame that the by ...again!

Canuck you are absolutely correct, in your opinion that this seems like a contradiction. I also agree that one might say the same about the use of the 45-70 on buffalo! However, it is not a contradiction, because the 9.3X62, and 9.3X74R, with proper bullets, in FACTORY ammo, is legal in many places, and the 45-70 is not legal in ANY country, with "FACTORY" ammo which is the deciding factor for legality, not handloads. Even in a Ruger No1, the 45-70 will not push a 400 gr bullet over 2000fps, and the sectional density is still too low for any decent penetration

There is a window that is considered to be optimum for a proper round for large dangerous game in Africa. That window is 2100 to 2550 fps, with a bullet that has as high a sectional dinsity as is possible for the diameter. The 9.3s fall just inside that window. Still, as I said it is light for buffalo, but I would far rather be armed with a 9.3 than any 45-70. The 9.3X62 is not supposed to match the 375 H&H, it is Germany's answer to the 375 Flanged, which is 200 fps less than the 375H&H, and is only .009 smaller in diameter, and the sectional density is over 300, a much better ratio of weight,and length, to caliber. This translates to better bullet performance than one of low sectional density, at lower speed.

Your statement that the 9.3X62 is not even legal in many countries because you have to load it to dangerous pressures to make it legal in the others, is not true! In countries where you would have to up load the 9.3X62/74R, it is not legal under any cercumstances. If factory ammo does not make it legal, it is simply illegal.

quote:
"The logic seems REALLY inconsistent to me, and there isn't much that bothers me more than illogical conclusions."

Speaking of inconsistant statements, it seems disingenous to say, on the one hand, that the the 45-70 can be loaded to very high pressures and should be legal, then turn around and complain thet the 9.3 can only be used if loaded to very high pressures, so should not be legal.I know that is not what you said exactly, but is the logic you use none the less.

The fact is the 9.3X62, or 74R are far better killers than the 45-70, with factory ammo, and with both handloaded it is still a better round.

"I just don't understand how it is OK for buffalo and some other cartridges that also fall just short of the energy requirement are not."

Both are light for the use here, but the 9.3s are legal, and the 45-70 isn't. The 45-70 is illegal in ALL counries for Buffalo. In areas where the 9.3s are legal they are legal with factory ammo. The 45-70 is not legal with any ammo, and is judged by factory balistics.

This is all just a long winded way of saying the 9.3X62, and the 9.3X74R are the minimum "LEGAL" round for Cape Buffalo in many countries,and I consider them light for the purpose, but legal! The 45-70 is not a legal minimum for Cape Buffalo in any country, and the 9.3X62, and 9.3X74R are simply better rounds for Cape buffalo, than the 45-70, with factory, or handloads, Period.

Mac -would a 450 marlin 350 gr. @ 2150 fps [factory load] be legal?

Thanks for the answers guys. Glad we can still have a constructive conversation around here, despite the numbers "45/70" being involved.

One more quick question...exactly where is the 9.3x62 legal for DG, with standard factory ammo?

Somewhere I got the impression that it was not strictly legal in Zim and Tanz. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Speaking of inconsistant statements, it seems disingenous to say, on the one hand, that the the 45-70 can be loaded to very high pressures and should be legal, then turn around and complain thet the 9.3 can only be used if loaded to very high

MacD37,

I never said the 45/70 should be legal. Nor did I complain about the 9.3 being loaded to high pressure. I'm not advocating either for buffalo, nor am I saying they shouldn't be used for buffalo. I am just trying to grasp why one is superior to the other, when they both seem to be very marginal.

To clarify my point, per my question immediately above, I have been under the impression that the 9.3x62 was NOT technically legal without "hopped up reloads" (based on previous threads on this topic). Therefor, I presumed that it and the 45/70 were in exactly the same situation with respect to the law and/or high pressure. I may not be right, but I was being consistent.

Cheers,
Canuck

Damn, I didn't realize a question about a new rifle I picked up could cause so much.......................entertainment!

I wasn't sure so I looked again - I never brought up 45-70s. I repeat I did not bring them up!

Thanks for all the very infomative and valuable info.

riodot

quote:

Originally posted by laredo kid:
Mac -would a 450 marlin 350 gr. @ 2150 fps [factory load] be legal?

As far as Zimbabwe is concerned, no. The energy for that load is 3427 ft-lbs. It appears that the min energy requirement in Zim is 5000joules, which is equivalent to 3688 ft-lbs.

It wouldn't be legal in Namibia either. Not sure about Tanz, etc. They seem to have minimum calibers, not energy...which would mean the 450 marlin could be legal.

As you can see, I did a little research since my previous posts. Didn't want to rely entirely on everyone's generous nature by taking up all their time answering my questions which I know are repeats. The search function here can be a real pain, though...it seems all the good old threads were the ones chopped up by the last software change.

Anyway, it looks like the 9.3x62 skates under the wire on energy in Zimbabwe. The minimum legal energy is 5000 joules (since the 1998 amendment), which is equivalent to 3688 ft-lbs.

Some standard factory ballistics for the 9.3x62 are:

9.3x62 Mauser 232 SP Norma Factory 2,624 3,548
9.3x62 Mauser 256 SP RWS Factory 2,560 3,726
9.3x62 Mauser 286 SP Norma Factory 2,360 3,530
9.3x62 Mauser 293 SP RWS Factory 2,430 3,842

The RWS ammo makes the minimum grade, but the Norma stuff doesn't.

Meanwhile, the hottest factory 45/70 ammo I could find is the Buffalo Bore offerings, and in both 350 and 405 grain bullets (which come the closest), it falls short of the minimum at just under 3600 ft-lbs.

From previous discussions it appears that the 9.3x62 is legal in Zim because of the amendment to the law in 1998, and it is supposedly legal in Mozambique and Botswana, and may be legal in some provinces in RSA.

It is not legal for DG in Tanz or Namibia.

Can anyone tell me the actual law in Tanz? I am just curious if the 45/70 is legal for DG in Tanz. I can see that the minimum is .375 calibre, but haven't been able to find whether there is a minimum energy requirement as well.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity, and my apologies for opening this can of worms again.

Cheers,
Canuck

A couple of things. The SuperPenatrator is made in the 9.3 mm size. If the data is to be believed it will do the trick both on penatration and wound size.

As for the shell, the new SAKO 9.3x66 shows ballistics very close to those of the 375 H & H.

Food to thought

The 9.3x62 can be strictly legal only with a hot handload as I stated above...But your quest for information is very misleading in that literally a lot of people from Zim and from the USA and Europe use the 9.3x62 for dangerous game and no one, I mean no one cares, its accepted and done all the time in both Zimbabwe and Tanzania, has been since the laws were written...I could go in to the whys and wherefores of this but no need, if you feel its illegal then don't use it....but its a different world than the world we live in and things are just done differently....I have no problem with using a 9.3x62 or a 30-06 on buffalo in either country and have hunted with the game officials and game wardens with both...Africans are a practical lot, if it works why bother the shooter.

Is the 45-70 legal is my question by these old outdated laws...

BTW wirecutters are illegal to possess in the state of Texas, got any idea who abides by that law? Point being some laws stay on the books for decades but are not enforced in all countries.

I have never heard of RSW ammo. Could you enlighten me as to what RSW stands for and the web address of the company? Possibly a mail order retailer?

Thanks,
Riodot

OOPS! I can't type - I mean RWS.

Riodot,

Check here...RWS ammuntion

quote:

RWS stands for the Rheinisch-Westfälischen Sprengstoff factories, which became part of Dynamit Nobel in 1931.

There is limited availablility in Canada. I believe some of the wholesale type distributers in the US carry RWS ammo.

Interestingly enough, I just noticed on the RWS website that they consider the 9.3x62, 9.3x64 and 9.3x74R all to be "not suitable" for cape buffalo.

The "suitable" recommendation doesn't start until you hit the 375 H&H.

Probably just a liability issue.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Speaking of inconsistant statements, it seems disingenous to say, on the one hand, that the the 45-70 can be loaded to very high pressures and should be legal, then turn around and complain thet the 9.3 can only be used if loaded to very high

MacD37,

I never said the 45/70 should be legal. Nor did I complain about the 9.3 being loaded to high pressure. I'm not advocating either for buffalo, nor am I saying they shouldn't be used for buffalo. I am just trying to grasp why one is superior to the other, when they both seem to be very marginal.

To clarify my point, per my question immediately above, I have been under the impression that the 9.3x62 was NOT technically legal without "hopped up reloads" (based on previous threads on this topic). Therefor, I presumed that it and the 45/70 were in exactly the same situation with respect to the law and/or high pressure. I may not be right, but I was being consistent.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck, I meant no disrespect,to you, or anyone here, with my post! To be fair it seems to make little difference what the law actually is, to most folks here! If it did, we wouldn't have these 200 post strings on things like the old 45-70, on a forum about African hunting! There are no deer, or Brown bear, or black bear, or moose, or Elk in Africa, that I'm aware of, and those are the real targets the 45-70 shines on. My question is, why not use it for those, and get a rifle more suited to Buffalo hunting when you spend thousands of dollars to hunt Cape Buffalo in Africa?

Since I have no desire to hunt, in Africa, primarily, with a 45-70,or a 9.3X of any kind, I haven't made myself aware of exactly which countries are allowing the 9.3X62, or74R, or 64 for Buffalo. I only ask if it is legal where I'm going,when I book, because I hunt plains game with a 9.3X74R double rifle, and Buffalo with a .400 caliber up, also in a double rifle. I happen to have a pair of Merkel double rifles, that consist of a Mod 140.1, 9.3X74R with 286 gr North Fork cup points @ 2350 fps, and a mod 141.2 Safari 470NE, with 500 gr North Fork cup point, @ 2150 fps. The reason I want this combination is, Both rifles feel the same, and opperate the same, so that if I have the 9.3 in my hands when confronted by a old grouchy Dugaboy, I can dispatch him without haveing to change rifles. The big rifle can always be used for smaller animals, but the small rifle has to be able, and legal to take on the big rifle's target if need be! As I have said in every post I've posted, I consider the 9.3s to all be on the light side for Buffalo, and even lighter for Elephant, but will work if legal. In some places they are legal, and where they aren't, I use something that is, for plains game. The 45-70 is not well suited for plains game shooting, and is illegal for Buffalo, and Ele, so to my way of thinking why bother. Simply use something better. The 45-70 is, however, legal for Leopard, and in some places maybe lion, but unless a hunt for the cats is over bait, and even then, I'd hesitate to consider it, as my best choice.

The 45-70 is neither fish, nor fowl. It is a poor choice for plains game, and even a poorer choice for Buffalo. I honestly do not see the facination with useing this old war horse for absolutely everything it WASN'T designed for. If it were the only choice one had, it would be different, but any decent gun store has something that is better suited to Africa.


Most PHs will let you hunt with what ever you want, as long as you don't hold him responsable if you wound and loose your trophy! The problem will raise it's ugly head, if some one gets hurt or killed, and the officials discover the fact that you are hunting with an illegal rifle, then it becomes an issue!

Ray - I belive horse and cattle rustlers can still be hung !!!!!!!!!!

hell in Texas you can still shoot at people for the offense of " Criminal mischief after dark".

Where else in the free world can you light someone up for egging your house?

And if I ever make it over yonder to hunt Cape Buff, I'll just pick a place where my 9.3x62 is more or less legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Paladin:
hell in Texas you can still shoot at people for the offense of " Criminal mischief after dark".

Hey Paladin, that's why we don't have too much "CRIMINAL" mischief in Texas!

Folks, go to https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/322105113 Then scroll down to the posts by Roger, and Ganyana, if you want to see what the 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R are in relation to the 45-70!

I think Ganyana, is knowledgable enough for any sane person to understand, and as Roger says, he has most likely seen more big game killed than all us put together!

[/QUOTE]
Without loading the 9.3x62 to dangerous pressures, its not even legal in most countries for cape buff. It makes the 3900'ish ft-lb energy requirement [/QUOTE]

Canuck
I'm a little confused is the minium legal requirment for DGR 3900 ft lb or is it .375 cal or both.
Thanks

Dr B,

Depends entirely on what country you want to use it in.

In Zimbabwe, the requirement is for 5000joules (3866 ft-lbs) of energy AND a minimum calibre of .366 (9.3mm).

The others vary quite significantly. In Tanzania for example, the minimum calibre is .375, but I haven't figured out if there is also a minimum energy requirement.

Cheers,
Canuck