I'm off to Zim in July for Buff, Sable and Leopard. My 375 likes PMC 300grn Barnes X.
I am happy with the combination on the Buff and Sable, but are Barnes X considered too hard for Leopard or does the calibre, speed and bullet weight compensate for the lack of expansion ?. Advice please.

quote:

Originally posted by R.Jolly:
I'm off to Zim in July for Buff, Sable and Leopard. My 375 likes PMC 300grn Barnes X.
I am happy with the combination on the Buff and Sable, but are Barnes X considered too hard for Leopard or does the calibre, speed and bullet weight compensate for the lack of expansion ?. Advice please.

They'll do the job if your shot is absolutely spot on...... but your PH will probably be very thankful if you opt for something like Winchester Silvertip or Woodleigh SP as it'll make a much bigger hole in the cat if you get it slightly wrong.

Shoot the bullet you know well. A .375 barnes X will give "ol spots" one hell of a shitty day. A lot can be said for a shooter when it comes to confidence in equipment and self performance. Your PH will congratulate you greatly over the corpse of a great trophy with a clean borehole all the way through it.

I think I would take Steve Robinson's advice, he has shot more than a few leopards.

Absolutly too hard, but the 375 cal hole in the right place will do the job.....but what if you don't put it in the right place?? I would use a soft bullet.
My 2 cents.

I shot my leopard with a 30-06 and Barnes TSX. It was dead under the tree.

I used the great X in my 338 last year and Mr Spots was stone dead when he hit the ground. It is all in the placement. use a 577 T Rex and hit him in the foot and you got a hand full of trouble.

Steve of course is right if you are considering just the leopard. I like a bullet that will work for everything if using one rifle and 2 loads for that rifle one rifle are asking for a f--- up. With the original X you probably are risking limited expansion on the leopard. Perhaps another rifle loaded with Nosler Partitions might be just the thing to take in the blind.

Mark

agree with mark ,

barnes triple shoks are awesome , but given the choice noslers or similar in a lighter calibre will be best ...

the barnes x in .375 and bigger naturally are a lot tougher than in the smaller calibres and take a lot more to open ...more room for error with a lighter calibre or softer soft ..

i personally hate the silvertips and have had bad experiences with breakup and huge holes ...

i prefer given the choice noslers , a frames or similar in a lighter calibre , that said i have guided many guys with .375 and they have cats in their homes today !!!

I can't brag much about the leopards I've taken since I have only killed one but I wouldn't use a Barnes bullet. I love em on thick skinned stuff but I have had two 416's fail to fully open. You can not screw up on Leopard. I shot mine with a 338 250gr Woodleigh PP and amazingly it came apart!! But the big cat was dead a few yards from the tree.
What was really baffling was that I shot a sable and Zebra with the same bullet and those bullets worked fine , meaning that they opened and did not come apart. If I were to hunt Leopard again or lion it would be with an A frame, Partition, or North Fork bullet.

I shot three leopards with them, and they were all dead before they hit the ground.

Same with lions.

But bwana not everyone shoots as well as you do.

My first reply was a bit short, so let me explain a little further. Sure an X will do the job if you put the bullet in exactly the right place, but a cat is very light boned and thin skinned and that bullet design will almost certainly shoot straight through without any expansion at all. - You might just as well be using a solid. - So if you put the bullet in the wrong place, the cat will be full of anger and probably very mobile when you, or rather, your PH has to go look for him. If you use a fast expanding bullet such as an Silvertip, Woodleigh (SP) or even an A Frame, you'll be putting a much bigger hole in the cat. The bigger the hole, the faster he'll bleed out, weaken and die. If he does come for the PH, he'll probably be slower with a big hole and less blood in him than he'd be be with a small hole and more blood in him.

As to the argument that two different loads is a recipe for trouble...... I don't agree in this case. If the PH knows what he's doing, he'll at the very least, have you re-zero your rifle for the exact range of the shot, so a different load shouldn't make any difference at all. The morning after you take your cat, you'll simply re zero your rifle for the Xs before you resume hunting again.

Regarding the Silvertip, the bullet was designed in the (I believe?) the 1940s and was intended as a cat load for (originally) the 375. I've used them in handloads, on and off since I first started hunting Africa 28 years ago. I've never seen one fail on anything, let alone a cat and I personally believe that in a suitable calibre they're still the best possible choice for a cat. - I appreciate other people have had problems, but that could in in factory loads or for a hundred and one other reasons.

All that said, it would be unprofessional of me not to suggest that you contact the PH you'll actually be hunting with and ask his advice and preferences. After all, he's the guy that'll be going off into the dark to look for any mistakes.

I'll amend my post by adding that as with all hunting, shot placement is the most important thing. Get that right and it won't matter what bullet you use.

Use the Barnes-X with confidance. It will kill the cat very quick. If you place the shot bad, you will need more than a "fragile" bullet to help you. Shot placement is important even with a softer bullet. Remember that a big leopard will only weigh about 180 pounds, they do not take a lot to be killed. I have killed them with 9.3 caliber solids, and placed in the heart lung area, they are dead very quick. Last one went exactly one bounce, and a few rolls, he was on the ground, and took a Woodleigh 9.3mm bullet through the heart.

R.Jolly

I do not know if you are shooting reloads or factory X loads, but here is what I would recommend.

Buy a box of Federal factory 300gr Nolser Partitions, & 300gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. Shoot them at 100 yards. If one of them shoots VERY CLOSE to your X bullet load, then test it at 50 yards. If it shoots "spot" on at 50 then take a few of them for your leopard hunt.

OR... If you are reloading then try the same 2 bullets and the 300gr Woodleigh Softs.

Again, IF you can get one of them to shoot "SPOT" on at 50 and 100 yards then I would use it for leopard.

Don't worry if your leopard load doesn't shoot to the same point of impact as your buff loads. The PH will have you sight your rifle in with your leopard load at the exact distance of your blind from the bait. You will then resight your rifle with your other loads after your leopard is in the salt.

465H&H

Many thanks for everyones imput.
I will be quite happy to take the advise on a seperate softer load for the cat. I would have at least checked the zero at the exact bait distance anyway before going into the blind so re-zeroing is no problem. As coincidence would have it I had to use borrowed Nosler partition last year when my bag failed to arrive. When I tried them I found that I didnt need to alter the zero,(much to the regret of the buff that they later shot).So it looks like problem solved. Thanks again to everyone.

I have done a lot of plainsgame (Impala, pig, kudu etc) hunts in the company of friends who used Barnes X (standard old PMC factory)

From time to time they have had totally inexpicable "misses". Now I hear a lot of game ranchers were finding carcasses above the normal quantity lying in the bush in recent seasons.

I added 2 & 2 and got "non expansion of Barnes X on thin skinned game.

I have a shooting range on my smallholding where many hunters come test their sights. I have dug many unexpanded Barnes X out of the soft read earth heap.

There are so many "no risk" options, why go with an "iffy" one? It is a leopard hunt after all.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Palos:
I have done a lot of plainsgame (Impala, pig, kudu etc) hunts in the company of friends who used Barnes X (standard old PMC factory)

From time to time they have had totally inexpicable "misses". Now I hear a lot of game ranchers were finding carcasses above the normal quantity lying in the bush in recent seasons.

I added 2 & 2 and got "non expansion of Barnes X on thin skinned game.

I have a shooting range on my smallholding where many hunters come test their sights. I have dug many unexpanded Barnes X out of the soft read earth heap.

There are so many "no risk" options, why go with an "iffy" one? It is a leopard hunt after all.

This can only be attributed to bad shot placement.

I have shot 100s of game animals with Barnes X bullets, in several calibers. And some bullets did not expand at all. But, we have never lost any animal hit properly.

Lets get this straight. Yall want this guy to shoot a bullet he is not confidant in the placement of said new bullet???????? Can somebody please explain to me the logic in that. Can someone tell me how a bullet with more expansion kills a gut or leg shot cat. Because they don't. If you make a crappy shot with any of the before mentioned bullets your riskfactor just went through the roof. These are not "tough" animals. You hit him straight and hard and all that is left is drinking and picking a good cat taxidermist.

Mr. Jolly,

Good luck with your cat. I hope you hook a beast. Stay confidant and shoot straight with the firearm combination you know best.

R.Jolly, in my experience the original Barnes-X seem to me to be made of tougher copper alloy than the TSX, so if you are really considering the originial Barnes-X you may get minimal expansion. Expect better expansion from TSX. I like to use TSX partly due to its inherent accuracy, but I switch back and forth between bullets during a hunt. For a given caliber I bring expanders, TSX and Barnes Banded Solids, all with the same bullet weight. This prepares me for any game.

As you know, people often use solids precisely because they don't want the destruction associated with expansion. On dangerous game however the choice is almost always to cause maximum damage with the first shot. Nosler Partition is the original expander and one of the fastest to expand. One premium bullet that seems to expand fairly fast is the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw. Another good one, but perhaps tougher and with a little slower expansion is the Swift A-Frame. Thanks for asking for opinions. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

This can only be attributed to bad shot placement.

I have shot 100s of game animals with Barnes X bullets, in several calibers. And some bullets did not expand at all. But, we have never lost any animal hit properly.

Thats great to hear. Now we can say goodbye to all those expensive "premium" bullet options and just shoot military ball rounds, so long as we shoot them true. At last the bullet debate can be finally closed.

R.Jolly - I would stick to the Barnes X all the way through - you will have no problem killing a leopard with this bullet.
I would definitely stay away from silver tip. I have had nothing but trouble with these bullets. I think re-zeroing your rifle every time you sit for a leopard for a different load is asking for trouble.

Jonathan Hulme
Zambezi Hunters
www.zambezihunters.com

quote:

R.Jolly - I would stick to the Barnes X all the way through - you will have no problem killing a leopard with this bullet.
I would definitely stay away from silver tip. I have had nothing but trouble with these bullets. I think re-zeroing your rifle every time you sit for a leopard for a different load is asking for trouble.

quote:

Can somebody please explain to me the logic in that. Can someone tell me how a bullet with more expansion kills a gut or leg shot cat. Because they don't.

What I said a while ago, just better.

I know we are talking 375's but I find it hard to beleive that a leopard is lighter than a white tail and my 416 350 tsx's and old 325x's open up on them. And to suggest a marginal shot with an x bullet is like using a solid is pure bunk. How does a bullet suddenly know its marginaly used and decide to not work??? I'd use the one load one gun whatever you decide.

I think there are a few people either misreading or misunderstanding my comments here.

My points are that faster expanding bullet equates to a larger hole, which in turn equates to more tissue damage, more and faster blood loss and more and faster debilitation to the animal than a small hole would cause.

Also an X won't expand as much as a fast expander no matter where in the body it hits the animal....... but at the end of the day, it's his hunt and his choice. - although I would suggest he asks the preferences of the PH he'll be hunting with.

Jonathan

Welcome to the forum. My post on the Silvertip referred to my own handloads....... can I ask if the bad experiences you (or anyone else) had with them, was with factory or hand loads, and if handloads, what speed were they coming out at? - Bullet debate etc is always interesting to me.

quote:

Originally posted by PoppaW:
I know we are talking 375's but I find it hard to beleive that a leopard is lighter than a white tail and my 416 350 tsx's and old 325x's open up on them. And to suggest a marginal shot with an x bullet is like using a solid is pure bunk. How does a bullet suddenly know its marginaly used and decide to not work??? I'd use the one load one gun whatever you decide.

Even Saeed in his comment above says "And some bullets did not expand at all."

Thats the whole problem with BarnsX: They do tend to occasionally "not quite work" but bullets that don't quite work can still kill extremely well! In Saeed's case they did'nt always work but they killed every time.

This is a Leopard hunt we're talking about: Lets say the bullet passes between two ribs, fails to expand and whistles through the lungs. The cat will surely die, but the hunter and his PH won't really know that in advance. If it's gone too far for a safe night time follow up, he could find it next morning eaten by scavengers. Nice trophy that would make.

There are simply some slightly better options. Use one.

Use Swift A-Frames on the cats.

As a rule, I personally do not like to use different bullets for different animals.

And having used the Silvertips once, and have seen how badly they can blow up on the surface, I would not use them given any choice at all.

I am not doubting Steve's own experience with them. But mine has not been very happy at all.

I have used the Barnes X in a 270, 338 and of course the 375. I have shot all animals withthem, from klipsringers to buffalo. And have not found their lack of expansion to be a problem at all.

Make life easy for yourself. Use one bullet, one load, and save yourself all sorts of trouble that might come up with mixing loads.

Saeed,

Was that with factory or handloads?


my (albeit unproven) theory is that the factory and some handloads are too fast and they consequently don't hold together on impact. I've always loaded them fairly slow and have never had a problem

Factory loaded 375H&H, later checked at just over 2400 fps.

Two loads for one gun is exactly what I am trying to stay away from on my May Leopard/heavy plains game hunt in Namibia. I also don't want to keep changing back and forth daily on sight settings. My simple, (JMHO), is I will be taking two (2) different rifles. My 270 WSM with 160 gr. Nosler Partitions, topped with a large diameter scope will be sighted in precisly for the Leopard. The 9.3 X 74R Ruger, with Barnes 250Gr. TSX's will be used for the larger plains game as in Kudu, Zebra, Eland and possibly Sable. I am sure I could shoot ALL of the animals with either rifle, but what fun would that be?? Yes, I believe the Barnes TSX is a bit hard for Leopard!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Any bullet can fail to work properly. When this happens you could be in trouble. I have put a lot of x bullets through non dangerous game and that is a good place to test because you won't get eaten if it fails. I have had no failures...yet. What do you do if you pick a soft lead core bullet and it fails? I have seen this. Very shallow penetration and bullets loosing their cores. Since shooting x bullets I haven't had to track anything. All dead right there or real close. That says a lot. I do not disregard your experiences with other bullets and would use them if they were more available to me.

MY point is, even an unexpanded X bullet will kill a cat very quick if shot right. A slightly botched shot will not, not even with a Silvertip. So stick to the ammo that you know works in your gun (the X's), for greater accuracy, and make sure of your shot (confidance in useing what you know...)

BTW, here is a cat that was shot with one of the conventional wisdom's better choices (a fast expanding, though still high weight retention bullet), a Norma Oryx bullet. It looks awful, but did not slow the cat down as much as it looks...


And here is the same cat with a .375 H&H hole in the right place, nogal! (also a TOO STRONG bullet?) Not exactly the type of shot I would reccommend, but it sure was effective...

Ooooowee! Nice pic Karl. I bet his taxidermist loved that. In fact many would charge extra to repair that hole. Could potentialy effect the quality of the mount.

smarterthanu, luckily it was his second leopard, he only wnated a flat skin!

I prefer a fast opening bullet such as the RN Woodleighs or perhaps a Sirocco or Hornaday over a monolithic..

You can kill a Leopard with any good deer bullet, or for that matter a 222 with a Lung shot..

IMO sometimes a Barnes X won't open up and you have pierced him, thats not good IMO, and is a recipe for disaster..It will kill him, but when?

To each his own and most of you are big boys and the choice is yours to deal with, use good judgment and plain common since, is good advise.

"It will kill him, but when?"

If you hit a cat in lungs heart or brain, Standard fatality targets, with a .375 barnes X he will be dead before you can get out of the blind and over to him.

If a cat cuts you up and you were shooting a 300 gr. piece of lead at him, don't blame the bullet manufacturer.

We had a bit of fun with the last leopard I shot. It was last year in Tanzania.

We had several baits up. And the one that got hit was on a tree next to a dry sandy river. We did not bother clearing underneath the tree to see tracks, just put the hide at the edge of the sand and sat in it.

The tree with the bait in it was surrounded by very thick bush, full of thorns.

Anyway, the leopard came just before sun down, he came to eat, and I had a perfect position to shoot. As I fired he dropped off the tree. We listened for any noise, and could nt hear anything - such as growling or him running away.

We left the blind and walked to the tree. As we got closer, we walked slowly, trying to look to see the leopard, hopefully dead.

We got to about 4 yards from the branch from which he dropped, and we could not see any sign of him. Both Alan and myself had our rifles ready. The tree had an ant heap around it, about 5 feet high. Alan decided to climb this, and may be get a better view.

I remember getting ready as he went to climb that ant hill, because I though if the leopard is lying down, he will see Alan an have a go at him. So the only chance I would get is a flying shot at him from very close range.

Well, nothing happened, and Alan could not see anything.

By this time it was getting dark, and we could hear the car coming.

We went back, both me and Alan climbed on top of the cap of the truck, and we drove slowly back to the tree. I had a spot light, and Alan had his rifle ready.

As we got under the tree, we saw spots lying there dead.

He was no more than 2 yards fom where we looked for him before!

Perfectly shot just behind the shoulders with a Walterhog 300 grain bullet.

I bet that bullet did not expand much, and still killed him instantly!

Saaed,

And I suppose the exit wound would be no problem for a taxidermsit to fix.