465, I'm definetly with you on that one. Yes we all know that Rob is the best out there now,but would he miss and runaway when bullets are coming back at him? Who knows, Rob dosent even know himself what he'll do until it happens.

Nopride- I dissagree. Hydrostatic shock is a funny thing and it will effectively close down the CNS on some animals very easily.

It is part of my reason for always using a rifle on a cat- I want an impact velocity above 22502fps. The difference on cats is very significant.

I mentioned above that I would prefer my 9*,3 in my hands to deal with a charging lion to a .458 Win for this very reason. Go to a .458 Lott ( With 450grn loads) and you have a fearsome cat stopper.

The only times I have not seen any effect on cats from Hydrostatic shock were on Rabid animals ( A carracal and two lion)

Even on buff, there is that shock effect- but very few people shoot them with anything big enough for that to become apparent.

Dear Ganyana,

Is it hydrostatic shock or is it something else? For example, possibly instant disintergration of the lungs. It seems related to explosive lung hits with very soft bullets.

The quickest I have ever seen a lion die with a body shot was virtually instantly. It was hit in the lungs from the side at 30 yards with a 7MM Rem magun using an RWS 162 grain Kegelspitz (in English - cone point). It really did drop in its tracks. That is a very soft bullet and the wrong one to use on lion but under the circumstances it worked perfectly.

Shooting common duikers with a 222 is the same. Hit them with a FMJ and they run off. Hit them with an explosive soft in the lungs and they stop right there. Oddly enough with buffalo the 458 calibre solids work fine.

Correct me if I am wrong but my impression of hydrostatic shock is that it is supposed to be caused by pressure that builds in the elastic veins and arteries and I would think that more likely in a muscle hit since that is where the veins and arteries are.

I would not think that pressure would build up with an explosive lung shot as the lungs are so soft.

What I have seen a couple of times is the heart on a buffalo explode completely when hit by solids. The first time I saw it I figured it was because the client was using sofzt nosed bullets so I watched for it and then saw it happen with 458 calibre solids too.

This water mellon effect must be the best example of hydrostatic shock in action but then the heart muscle is elastic and at time full of blood just like a water mellon is full of water.



VBR,


Ted Gorsline

There are way more veins and arteries in lungs than muscle

Hi Ted. I am a large mammal ecologist by training not a doctor but refer you to the works in various millitary medical text books on wounds and wounding effects. eg the Well publisised Namibian results with .223 - by W. Hunt (which is why they and the south Africans have stayed with 55grn ball for military use) and also the early brit military textbooks on the subject covering the switch over from the round nosed MkII ammo, to the hollow point Mk V- back to round nosed for Boer war and then the spitzer Mk VII with the paper machie insert to ensure it tumbled.

My basic experience is- Hit any animal through the top of the heart or major chest artery during it's systolic phase with a bullet going fast enough, and you have an instant kill. Doctari and I dissected several animals carefully that had fallen to heart shots. Some had run, some had died instantly. Those that dropped in their tracks had suffered a massive stroke.- ie the bullet had caused a massive surge in blood presure which had burst the blood vessels in the brain.

That much is fact.

Now onto my own ideas... Cats have large lungs with many blood vessels - and less able to cope with a sudden blood pressure spike caused by a bullet than say an impala. I can say for a fact that my 9,3 always knocks a cat down with a central hit. Impala offten run off a short distance!

On a large animal like a buffalo, the ammount of "shock" required to raise the blood pressure to instantly fatal limits would go up- much bigger blood vessels - more elastic, bigger valves to hold the pressure back. At some point all animals become suceptable to the effects of hydrostatic shock. I recon .505 gibs and up for buff.

...but back to cats...And why I am not convinced about the lung damage theory. Why do they fold when a dog (jackal) or hyeana will run off? It is not simply a matter of "luck" hitting a blood vessel in the heart of lungs. (belive me during my first major job on a rabies outbreak I dissected hundreds of Jacal, caracal, serval, civits and Hyaena we shot).

With .303 or 7.62 ball- the cats went straight down. The dogs usually ran. It HAS to do with the sympathetic nervous system. See my earlier posts about the rabid lion and carracal. I have never before - or since seen a 9,3 or .375 faill to stop a charging lion in its tracks. That male took two well placed .450 bullets (@ 2400 fps) right in the boiler room and came on. Also took 13 7.62 rounds through the chest without noticeable effect until one broke it's spine.

quote:

My basic experience is- Hit any animal through the top of the heart or major chest artery during it's systolic phase with a bullet going fast enough, and you have an instant kill. Doctari and I dissected several animals carefully that had fallen to heart shots. Some had run, some had died instantly. Those that dropped in their tracks had suffered a massive stroke.- ie the bullet had caused a massive surge in blood presure which had burst the blood vessels in the brain.

That much is fact.

I respectfully disagree. There is no way that a shoulder fired gun can raise the bloodpressure via the arteries (very elastic) to cause a stroke in the brain. If that was Kevin / Doctari's observation, i must, (once again respectful for both of youre ample experience), ask that he go and ask his vet school money back. I am not a vet, nor a doctor, but I did do physiology, biochemistry (but mostly chemistry) at univarsity level. I do not profess that I know more than a vet, just that I do know that arteries are too elastic for what you are saying. Also, it will not be the first mistake a vet makes, if he/ you interpeted the "evidence" wrong.

Dear Bulldog 563,

What I meant to say is that for a pressure spike (hydrostatic shock) to take place in the veins and arteries they must be surrounded by rubbery muscle to hold the vein or artery in place so pressure can build. Lung tissue is very soft and unlikely to do that. The vein or artery is more likely to expand or explode.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline