I will say this right away...I have never killed a lion or leopard with a shotgun, but I would like to relate a story to you all, since I know that some PH's recommend one for follow-up.
I spent 12 years as a SWAT team member for a very large (hint) New York police department. I have had to kill numerous pit-bull terrier dogs during search warrant executions. Most were killed with bursts of fire from MP-5 9mm rounds, but on one occasion I happened to be using a Benneli Super 90 12ga shotgun, which were new to the unit, and I wanted to try-out. On this search warrant, our suspect let his dog out of the bedroom, which immediatly charged at our entry team. I then fired one round of double buckshot which caught him dead center in the chest at about 25 feet...all nine pellets struck him in the chest, and my partner also fired one round from his Glock 9mm, which blew his foot off. Anyway, the moral of the story is that the dog was blown back about 3 feet, but he then ran off down the hallway where he died in the bathroom. He was not stopped right-away, and if he chose to, could have continued his attack. This incident really got to me and has me wondering on how the hell can a shotgun stop a 180lb leopard, let alone a pissed-off 450lb lion? I have no doubt that the round will be fatal, but before the cat can cause alot of damage...I don't know. I would love to hear some opinions and experiences any of you may have.
WARNING!! I DO NOT claim to know anything about shooting a charging big-cat, and I am not picking a fight with anyone here....I am just relating an incident from my point of view.

Guy's I just re-read my post, and I want to clear my grammer up....my partner shot the DOG's foot off, not his own! Also, I was using Federal copper-coated buffered 00 buckshot.
Thanks, and I look foreward to your reply's

Can't tell you anything about shotguns on lions/leopard as I have never shot one either. But, I will say this, damn those pits can be tough to bring down. I read a story on AR a little while ago, where the guy telling the story shot a pit at close range with a Glock 23 .40, multiple times to the head and the dog still ran off. Strong dogs they are.

Wolfgar,

When one reads about the PH's injured 80 percent are from leopard attacks...I know afew Ph's who have switched from buck shot to slugs and from shotguns to the heavy rifles...416 and up...
I have never heard of a Ph following up a lion with anything but a heavy rifle and I have read they would never use a shotgun...
This summer I will be attempting to harvest a lion and I have a whole new respect for them..I am also very happy that I will be shooting a double rifle in 450#2..

Mike

My PH in Tanzania used a Benelli semi-auto for back up work on leopard. Not on mine, I must add and am happy to say, since one well-placed round from a .375 dropped him like a sack of grain.

But having the ability to flick your trigger a mere few times and throw more than fifty thirty three caliber lead buckshot at Mr. Spots in mere seconds seems like the right idea to me.

There's been several heated discussions on the topic of the 12 gauge with slugs or ooo buck on animals before. I was a party to them.
I've never shot a Leopard or Lion with anything, so keep that in mind. I have killed my share of Brown Bears.
I think the most misunderstood point of using a shotgun is, to keep the animal from killing you, not to kill the animal. If you hit an animal in the face with buckshot, I bet he will forget what in hell he was attacking. If you have time, light and the balls to use a big gofast 460Whizbang, of course it is better. In close quarters,(30 feet or less), bad light and small balls, I'd use a shotgun.
I fool around in thick brush all the time, I carry a Rem 870 with ooo buck. Brown bears are thick here. I've been here for 40 years so I'm not a new guy.
The local oil company seismic crews hire bear watch guys to protect their people. They carry shotguns. They are not hunting, their for protection only.
I'd be courious to know what brand of oo buck you shot the dog with. Did you autopsy the dog? How many pellets hit him? Where did they hit? If you hit a dog in the chest at that distance with a Rem Express 3" Magnum OO buck, I doubt he would move.

TJ, best as I can remember, I was using Federals cooper-coated 00buck. They are hot loads and kick like hell. All nine pellets centered the animals chest, but no autopsy was preformed...he was just flung into a garbage truck!

Even a OO buckshot pellet does not relaiblby penetrate even bushbuck, let alone leopard/ lion.
You are likely to have one shot only, make it count. Also, at the ranges that charging cats are shot, shotgun pellets do not disperse much, so it is not easier to hit something with a shotgun than a rifle. A friend and fellow PH, Rory Muil, switched to slugs in his semi auto shotgun about 2 years ago, and I recon if you want to use a shottie, that would be the way to go. Me, I stick to my .450 Rigby, which I am used to carrying and shooting anyway.

While I have not hunted any of the African Cats I would much rather have a Double rifle with soft points then a shotgun. Also from most of the stuff I have read on the subject it seems like most of the long time PH's would rather have the rifle they carry every day over a shotgun.

Do people really follow up lions with a shotgun... Leopard I could see but a Lion would seem pretty risky.

I am interested to hear what some of the PH's who post here have to say on the subject.

I always use my rifle on follow ups - but one of the other PHs who works for us uses a shotgun on Leopard...... I don't know of any PHs that would use a shotgun on Lions.

It might be of interest that the other PH I mentioned and I shared a follow up on a wounded (Masailand) Leopard last year and we both shot the Leopard at the same time. His shot from the 12 gauge broke the cat's jaw on both sides and my bullet hit the face. The cat dropped at 6 yards. Whether the shotgun alone would have been enough to kill the Leopard I obviously don't know......

Nigel Archer from Kenya uses a Benelli even on wounded lions and has shot charging lions wih it. Nigel's father Tony Archer used a double 12 on cats.

Nigel told me he uses alternate buckshot and slugs. It does not sound ideal on lions however as he said the soft slugs flatten on the lions chest and follow the lions rib cage. My impression is Nigel has been able to turn lions doing this and then when they are sideways the slugs work.

The reason people use the Benelli is because it is a pump/semi auto and can be brought into countries where semi-autos are illegal and then switched to semiauto when it is needed.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Per Retreever's posting there is a fairly extensive article on the African Hunter website regarding the use of shotguns on leopards and lions. Their data show that shotguns with buckshot are inadquate for leopards and are inadequate for lions with slugs.

A shotgun may very well stop a lion in full charge with buckshot,but it will be in the hands of someone else when it does! I've known of several criminals who survived a chest full of police double OO buckshot from close range. I would say, IMO is, a human is for more likely to sucumm to this than a wounded, adrenelized 450 lb lion!
Since a bullet is no harder to hit a the lion , or Leopard with at close range than buckshot, make mine a good double rifle of 375H&H flanged or larger. Preferably larger! Gregor Woods, who writes for African Hunter magazine, and has hunted Africa all his life makes the statement, in his book RIFLES FOR AFRICA , that a light well ballanced double rifle chambered for the little 9.3X74R is his top choice for follow up on lion, and leopard. I don't know if I'd go that far, but I would rather have a nice 450/400NE 3" double than any shotgun, with buck shot for sure, and even over well made slugs!

Now that I have my opinion out in the wind, let me qualify it with the fact that I have never shot an African lion with any rifle, or shotgun, with any ammo! SOOOOOOooooooooo, I guess my opinion, is just that opinion, and nothing more! It is worth what you paid for it, however!

Wolfgar:

I read your post with considerable interest. It happens that my outfitter (on my one and only hunt in Africa) was what was called a "lion man" in those days,meaning that he was called in by the Ministry of Parks and Game (Zimbabwe) to handle problem lions in the Chirisa District. He told me an interesting story. He was a PH in earlier days of his career and had to deal with leopards shot over bait by foreign hunters - (this was not shooting out on a plains area from a baited acacia tree) It was his rule to forbid anyone to follow him. He told me that he used to use a short barrelled 12 ga loaded with birdshot (No.8s) and would try to hold away so as not to ruin the hide for the client. When a leopard nearly killed him (as he was crawling through the brush looking for him) he switched to a 357 Mag. (Colt Python) He said that a leopard weighing 100 lbs was incredibly dangerous and very hyped up. So I well believe your post about the pit bull. A lot of critters can really have the adrenaline pumping!

I have also heard that Buck is not the best shot to use. The reasoning is that since the shot is so big there is lots of empty space in the shell. If you use #1 you get much more shot (in weight) in the shell.

I think I heard this in a capstick article but not sure.

Back in 1984 we had a PH follow up a wounded lion with a Win. Model 12 and duoble ought buck. Luckily Nassos was with him because the cat was then really pissed and chewing on the PH's arm. Nassos pushed his .375 past the guys arm on into the lions mouth and literally blew the cats brains out. We have a Benelli 3, inch 12 GA AUTO and some heavy triple ought loads for leopard follow up with some Brenneke slugs in the mix as well. But for lion it's .375 or .458 time!

Rich Elliott

Just about every story I have heard or read about where a PH got wounded/killed by a leopard DESPITE getting at least one successful shot off at the charging beast was using a s/gun to follow-up!

Most recently, Gerard Ambrose who hunts for Robin hurt Safaris, got hit by a wounded leopard. He shot the charging cat in the face/chest area from the back of the truck as it sprang up to him at near point blank! He got off with minor injuries as it were but on post mortem, they found his pellets had barely broken the skin!!!

Douglas McNeil used to use a 10ga sxs for chui before he got his double. After hearing of a few harrowing incidents involving s/guns and wounded leopards, he is now selling his 10ga!

On lion? Shotgun? NO WAY! Ted, you need to talk some sense into Nigel

Dear BwanaMich,

It doesn't seem like a good idea and especially so on lion but apparently both Nigel and his father have done it. Might be OK with hard cast shotgun slugs in rifled barrel but from what Nigel says normal slugs (which are soft to ensure they go through a constricted choke on barrel) flatten and follow the ribs which doesn't sound encouraging.

In Zimbabwe John Osborne and Rob Style used to follow wounded lion with both a shotgun and rifle in combination using the shotgun to try to blind lion and I know of it working at least once as I know the client who shot the lion and saw the skull. The skull was broken but not penetrated.

But then I hear on a lioness got to Rob and am not sure what he was using. There is a game scout in Kilombero named Kijazi who deliberately trades in his 458 for a double 12 gauge shotgun with SSG for following wounded lion. He seems to have learned this from the British game wardens of old but I never saw him shoot a lion.

I use a rifle myself but there do appear to be people who have done it with a shotgun. From the literature you get the impression that in the old days it was as popular as the "smashing both shoulders" is today. But maybe is was just BS.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

I've done a little testing of buckshot. At ranges of more than 20 yards the stuff is just about useless on anything larger than a coyote. I think you can kill darn near anything with it a 15 feet though.

Extracted from http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm ...

"If you go through the Professional Hunters and Guides Association awards for bravery, an inordinate number seem to go to trackers who rescue their PH's from under a leopard they failed to stop with a shotgun. If you go through the records of the Department of National Parks, 86% of the PH's injured by animals fall prey to leopards, and invariably wounded leopards whose charges they have failed to stop with a shotgun. Bear in mind that at leopard charge ranges, the shot from a shotgun will not have begun to spread out. You therefore have a heavy, but very slow and very frangible projectile. Pellets are round and tend to ricochet off the skull, whilst all but the heaviest pellets may not get through the chest muscles. Not what the doctor ordered."

IMHO what is said has a lot of sense - and Ganyana actually has a lot of experience and knowledge on this matter ... actually your pitbull experience has some undoubtfull analogy with what was meant by Don Heath in the mentioned article ...

From the same article;

". As noted in my article on game toughness, a bullet needs to be travelling at over 2250fp to exploit a cat's susceptibility to shock. No shotgun load achieves this and you therefore have to rely on killing the animal by destroying organs. With a perforated heart a lion can still move for up to 8 seconds - at 15+ metres a second: perfect medicine in a close quarters confrontation."

It says 2250fps to get shock effect in cats... What about most NE rounds that come in below this number?

I completely agree with what has been written about shooting leopard and lion with a rifle for follow up. However, we have all seen video of leopard hunted in the Kalahari where the leopards are tracked by bushman and/or dogs. From most of what I've seen these leopards almost always charge the vehicle and are regularly dispatched with a shotgun. What gives? Maybe they have figured out a load that works on leopard or maybe it's shooting down on the cat or at an angle that works.

I have said most of this before in print ( in either Magnum, African Hunter or Sporting Gazzete but for those who have missed it....

Bill Bedford and Bob Warren Codrington attempted to stop a charging lioness with their 12 guage shotguns. 7 Hits, including one in the throat at 3 paces, and five fired by Bob into the lungs from the side - resulted in Bill geting a good mauling- NB- that lioness already had a .458 and a .375 in her.

I have picked up dead lion that tribesmen have killed with AAA or SSG- Almost invarably taking the animal by suprise.

Rob Style was using a .458 with A square lion loads which blew appart on the lions chest muscles moments before that lion landed on top of him.

Brian Marsh, my long time friend and often hunting mentor, always used a shotgun for leopard until two close calls. He wrote the rsults up in magnum (Nickudu???). Tried AAA as he thought he had a better chance of hitting something vital, and then discovered that the pellets bounced off the sloped skull... Switched to LG (OOO), and only just got away with it. Switched to a rifle.

I have long been known for using a bayonette on the end of my rifle for cat follow up, particularly leopard. Had a close call on my very first leopard hunt with a client. Had an F.N. FAL in my hands, when the wounded leopard sprang on me from above ( I was looking down at spoor), Saw the movement, looked up got one shot off, and had a case of trigger freeze. Leopard died on the bayonette.

I know Lou Halimore likes a shotgun for leopard and another mate of mine uses a 10 guage with plated shot. Personally I believe that it is a metal block that keeps the shotgun in favour- With a shotgun you point and pull, you don't try to aim. With a charging leopard there is no time to aim, you point and pull- and had better be on target! Also, at normal charge stopping ranges (10 yards and under- there is insufficient pellet spread to increase ones chances of hitting. You might as well use a slug as shot.

To this end, I have fitted the same fiber optic sight to all my rifles as my shotgun. It has improved my score at clays and taken 3 seconds off my times on the PH proficiency shoots without lowering scores. I am learning to trust myself that the rifles fit - and under 25 yards whatever that bead touches is where that bullet is going to land.

During the anti poaching operations we used shotguns extensively in the early days. The furthest we had a poacher run after taking two hits at close range (under 10 paces) with 00 buck was 2 km (one blast in the front of chest and one in the kidneys as he turned to run). The remington OO buck ( fired by Steve Edwards) bounced off his spine but destroyed both kidneys. If a man caught cold can run that far...I want a rifle for cats.

Dear Ganyana,

The bayonet is an interesting idea. I once put a bayonet on a Remington 870 pump and sold the combination to the late Simon Piercy who had no chance to use it on leopard.

I see where the late Sasha Siemel was supposed to have done the same thing on jaguar.

And now I see you have done it on a leopard coming at you from above.

Do you think it would work on a leopard coming along the ground. Is he going to leap up at you from far enough away that you can use the bayonet or is the jump at you going to come from so close that you have to spear his back? Is he going to go for your face or throat or is he going to grab you by the leg?


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Watching a follow up on a wounded cat by someone who has had a close call (or tummy tuck and face lift) is always informative compared to watching someone who has never been there.

In low light, I carry the rifle in my shoulder angled down. I now have a sreamlight flashlight attqchement to the barrel as well. - Why- I believe that in poor light/night, the attack will come from within 3 paces and almost certainly from ground level. NB- I also always carry a handgun.


Lance Nesbet after his last mauling (and near sex change) has gone to zulu type sheild and revolver... He saw that leopard at about 12"! His rational is that following a leopard at night in jess is that a handgun is the only thing you can manouver quickly with. - he has a point.

Also, you see the heavy jackets to chain mail comming out when there is a night follow up! Chain mail- I jest not.

In daylight it is a different story- The wounded leopard will probably not have gone far, but will have sought the best location-as protection from hyaena's and other leopards as much as you wandering along in the morning. The charge will also come from furhter away. Perhaps 10-15 yards.

I am not a leopard pro, and will not take clients on leopard hunts if I can avoid it, unless it is a dogged hunt. Why- it is an art and there are better men at that art than me. ( Wayne Grant, Wayne Williamson; Andy Hunter et al) Also, all too often if the cat comes in at last light, on being hit it will come off the branch and disapear into the surrounding bush. You then have that dilema- To follow and hope that your clients shot was perfect and it is lying dead a few yards into the bush, follow and fight or wait until morning and find that the cat was dead or dying after all and that by dawn the hyaenas and jackals have left you a 6" strip of skin along the spine for your client to take home and have tanned!

Also, the parks areas where I hunt, the game scouts do NOT want to be part of any nocturnal follow up and will often attempt to fine the PH for "hunting at night" if he wants to follow up.

Perversly, if the cat comes in at first light, it usualy lnds stone dead at the base of the tree.

Most of my cat experience has been lion- and one almost always has more than enough room to manouver and shoot. My 9,3 has never failed to stop any charge.

There is a video available in Zim that features Lou Halimore and several other PH's in a demo and discussion of the merits of using a shotgun on Leopard. I watched it several times a few years ago and if memory serves me it came to the conclusion that this was a POOR stopping backup weapon for wounded Leopard. These were all eminent PH's in Zim. My friend who is a Zim PH/Outfitter who hunts Leopard with dogs still uses a Berreta auto that I cut a short barrel for with 3" 12ga plated '00'. I personally would NEVER use one. Another friend who hunts with dogs uses a 9.3 double with a Ruger 44mag handgun as backup.. I have always thought the old Ruger 'Deerslayer' auto with hot 44mags might be a good backup. Short quick and with hot loads I think adequate. Wounded Leopard scare me.

The Boddington on Leopard Video has an interesting discussion on this topic. In sum, it agrees with Ganyana's post above. Because of the close range on leopard, the PH in that discussion points out that the shotgun would likely give no bigger pattern than a large caliber DG rifle.

Dear Ganyana,

Which bullet do you use in your 9.3 for lion and how often when you follow leopard with light do you see the eyes before the charge?

Rick Trappe told me he preferred to follow cats at night with a light because you could see the eyes in the light before the charge starts wheras in the day you see nothing.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Hi Ted

I use Ken Stuart softs in my 9,3 for anything hard- lion, buff, eland, girrafe ( I know a lion side on is soft but when it charges those chest muscles are at least the equivalent of 6" of hard bone).

For leopard I have used the speer 270grn (which is my general purpose bullet).

I have done three night follow ups on leopard. Seen the eyes twice.

On PAC lion, the warning growl has always ensured that I have seen the eyes and the target before fun started. The only occasion I have not had enough "warning" from a lion was a rabid one that was chasing some dogs, saw us (another PH and myself) and just changed direction of charge somewhat. Absorbed 2 .450 Ackley softs without noticeable effect and 14 7.62 millitary ball.

I've never hunted big cats, and may be wrong (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am!), but I think this whole discussion has gotten off wrong from the get-go (no offence meant to Wolfgar).

Wolfgar's experience had him hitting the pitbull in the CHEST. My understanding of using a shotgun on cats is shooting them in the HEAD.

IMHO, these are two different situations completely. If you have an electric pump running and you wreck the pump, the electricity in the wire to the pump is still live. If you turn off the switch, then the pump is undamaged, but cannot work because the wire isn't carrying power.

When you use a shotgun on cats, you're looking to flick the switch off, not wreck the pump.

Fisher....The problem is cats have fairly hard skulls and they are well sloped. I have heared two theories on this and looked at several dead cats. Plated buckshot up to OO buck bounces off skuls. Softer pellets like the Rotweill brand use penetrate skulls much better ( they also start at a higher velocity than any other brand I have chronographed.) On body shots- plated pelets penetrate and far too many brands of lead pellets simply flatten out in the chest. Again Rotweill brand has a good reputation as the best balance.

Anybody who is good enough to choose where he is going to hit that orange/tawney blur in poor light is a far better shot than me!

All cats are suceptable to hydrostatic shock, and I rate shock as more important than hole size. I would rather use my 9,3 against a lion than a .458 Win (with 510grn softs) for that very reason. Would rather use my .404 ( at 2350fps) over my 9,3 given the choice but things have never worked that way.

Ganyana,

Very interesting that you mention using a bayonet...When I was growing up there was an old guy who used to tell stories about hunting in Kenya while he was station there in the Army..He always said his favourite weapon for following up wounded leopard was an old American trench shotgun because he could fit a bayonet to it...

I never could work out whether he was BSing or not!
He also said that he favoured using dogs on wounded leopard, some sort of bull terrier cross if I recall correctly..I was skeptical back than that two or three dogs would deal with a wounded leopard, but on reflection, i suspect he wanted them to draw/distract the leopard rather than have them try to bay it..

Regards,

Pete

Fischer,
Good point, and no offense taken! Trouble is when attacked by an animal (or human for that matter) things happen SO fast, that there is no time to aim for the head insted of the chest. You get your gun up and fire as fast as you can. There are some instructors in law enforcement who teach that one should focus on the front sight, and let the rear sight and target go slightly out of focus. In my experience this is a good theory and is great for shooting targets, but it all goes out the window when the shit hits the fan, since you WILL automaticly focus on the threat. This is instinctual, and I believe it cannot be un-learned. I have found that I have been aware of where my sights were upon firing, but focusing on the front sight will be the last thing on your mind. How did I get on this rant??

Pete E
John Northcoate favoured that mix up in Kenya/Uganda in the 50's.Certainly not an original idea. The only problem is in jess- Even the short No 5 Bayonette I use ads 6" to a rifle and in thick cover a 23" barrel is too long let alone with another 6" added. On control work I used a lee enfield No 5 because it A0 Worked and b) got free ammo. That 19" barrel was a great help and I had a lazer sight fitted. Then I laid hands on a winchester 71, which I still recon is the ideal leopard rifle and was going to cut it down ( to 18") and bore it out. (to .375) but as it was near mint and somebody called me a philistine...

Dear Wolfgang,

Your observation that once a charge begins everyone focuses on the animal is exactly correct.

Its funny to see humans in action. The psychological difference between a fleeing and charging animal is enormous.

If a buffalo runs away all the trackers, gun bearers etc. and even fit young clients sometimes try to give chase. You have to shout to keep them with you because if they get strung out in a line ahead of you and if the animal changes its mind and charges you can't shoot and they don't know where to shoot.

If the buffalo charges everybody is running in exactly the opposite direction.

But focus is on the incoming animal and this is the dangerous time when people shoot through each to hit the animal other or blow each others ear drums out.

If the cover allows it I try to get people side by side because it concentrates the firepower and there are no worries about somebody shooting through you.

In long grass its better to go alone because if you are side by side it makes too much noise and if untried people are behind you they are liable to shoot you in the back.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Ted, I agree 100%. I was involved in a situation where a suspect began firing (unexpectedly) and one team member returned fire and shot his partner by accident. Also these are highly trained SWAT officers who handle weapons every day,as well as train together constantly, not someone who handles his rifle a few times a year while hunting or shooting. This is no knock to the hunters, just what happens when the survival mode kicks in.
If I were a PH, I would not let a client help me follow up dangerous game. SWAT officers will not allow patrol officers to execute a search warrant with them. This is NOT to an officers dis-credit, it is because this is not something that a patrol officer is trained and equiped to do. I think the same apply's to a DG follow-up.
Just my opinion here.

Reading my post over...I do not want to piss-off any cop's that are reading this! I think you know where I am coming from, I am refering to a high-risk search warrant execution, or barricaded subject where the chance for a confrontation is high.

Clients who can shoot can be helpful. I had one help shoot a buffalo off me. The main thing is to position them so nobody shoots through the other person because that for sure will happen. I am sure this is easier to do with big game than an armed man.

The late Saidi Kawawa told me about the death of an African PH named George Mbwana. This incident took place many years ago and the newspapers of the day said he had been killed by a buffalo.

I fact he was shot in the back by two Ph students from Mweka Wildlife college. Saidi told me he saw the bullet holes in George's back but since there was no criminal intent he let the newspaper story stand to save the students from grief as revenge is popular in Africa.

I also heard a rumour from the Selous but cannot confirm it. Apparently a couple of French hunters wounded a leopard and during the follow up, as a precaution, decided to place some of their staff behind them with extra shotguns. Both Phs were gunned down by their staff when the leopard charged.

Your thread is the first time I have heard anyone(including Capstick) mention this intense focus on the threat in reference to African hunting and it absolutely does happen and is very important to keep in mind.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

by Wolfgar!

quote:

SWAT officers will not allow patrol officers to execute a search warrant with them. This is NOT to an officers dis-credit, it is because this is not something that a patrol officer is trained and equiped to do. I think the same apply's to a DG follow-up.

A few years back I was a police firearms instructor as well as a USPSA?IPSC instructor. At one of my USPSA classes a student asked me if I got into a police firfight wouldn't I like to have Rob Leatham (several time USPSA national and IPSC world champion) at my side. I responded that I would rather have a mediocore department shot at my side than Rob. Although I have great resoect for Rob's shooting abilities, I don't know what he would do in a high streess police situation. I have at least a reasonable confidence in what my fellow officer would do because of our similar training.

465H&H

Unless you hit the central nervous system you won't stop a charge whith a howitzer.

Dave