That was the headline on inside of my newspaper.. The article said no long gas lines...there is no gas...being sold legally
and has not been any for 2 months..Govt has run out of foreign money needed to import gas..unemployment over 70%, inflation in November at 502%, and the US dollar which fetched $8 Zim dollars a decade ago is now worth $79,042 in Zim dolars..

Mike

Yet many people will ignore this an go on safari there. For the enviorment to correct itself it must first bottom out....looks like the first step is now a short one.

Robber Mugabe, can now move to France, and take his billions with him, and leave his countrymen to starve! The French will be happy to set him up in a big estate, and protect his sorry Pinko Comrad ass! Here's what Mugabe needs............

I know I'd hate to be sitting on a booked safari date with $5k or so in deposit money there. Doubt there is enough Tylenol PM to help me sleep thru that wait.

Cats, you've just been added to my list of people I'm blocking. It's a short list, but contains people who really stretch to tell others what they should do or think.

I've been to Zim three times and am going back for a fourth serving, thank you very much. Know some folks there who need the support we hunters give them, and there are a lot of them I don't know who eat better because I went. That's real world justification, and it's enough for me.

We're all entitled to our own opinion, just not entitled to our own facts.

HT why on earth do you think I care whom you block? Your ego that big?
BTW what does my feeling jittery about my deposit $ have to do with you or anyone else?

I went to Zim last July and I would have no problem going back again. Matter of fact I doubt that there is anyone that has gone to Zim in the last 2 years that wouldnt go back again because of safty issues.

anyone with the balls to post on a pro hunting sight an mention they live in California surely isn't afraid of anything.
who said anything about safety other than you. Booking an finding your hunting company doing business in 1 2 even 3 years while you await your trip is more the issue

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
anyone with the balls to post on a pro hunting sight an mention they live in California surely isn't afraid of anything.
who said anything about safety other than you. Booking an finding your hunting company doing business in 1 2 even 3 years while you await your trip is more the issue

people were saying the same things as you are now years ago. People are still hunting in Zim!

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
anyone with the balls to post on a pro hunting sight an mention they live in California surely isn't afraid of anything.
who said anything about safety other than you. Booking an finding your hunting company doing business in 1 2 even 3 years while you await your trip is more the issue

What the hell does California have to do with anything? Geez, where's the "Ignore" button when you need it?

Fjold that's what the rest of America asks themselves every day

We actually had 21 days booked in Zim with Barry Duckworth's Mokore safaris in '98. Sadie was very concerned about the state of the country in general and it seemed pretty shaky to me so we cancelled, got our deposit back and booked Zambia instead. Now 7 years later Mokore is still offering quality safaris with very good trophies as witnessed by their '05 newletter that I posted here.

Even in this chaotic time in Zim they continue to move ahead with business. They have nurtured a 1,000,000 acres in Mozambique to were they now have a 30 year lease and are offering full bag safaris there. They also are hunting the Forestry areas in the west of Zim and have excellent success with big elephant etc. there. They still hunt the wilderness of Chewore South and although their piece is not as large at it originally was they offer incredible hunting on the Save for all of Zimbabwe's indigenous game.

The point is that I've put my money down there again for '07 and I fully expect to have a great hunt. As for the money a $1000 deposit will hold your dates 2 years ahead and all your money stays Stateside until just before the hunt. A Zim booking at least with Mokore just doesn't seem that chancy to me.

Mark

Mark I have no reason to doubt you. But the fact you have business intrest in Zim. cannot be overlooked either.
My replies were not hedged towards telling anyone to go or not to go. Rather more about my comfort level of placing a large deposit on a much anticipated trip 1,2 or 3 years out ..waiting for the trip to come only to find out that the company I was waiting 2 years to go with decided that with the mess in Zim. no longer makes good business to stay there.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
That was the headline on inside of my newspaper.. The article said no long gas lines...there is no gas...being sold legally
and has not been any for 2 months..Govt has run out of foreign money needed to import gas..unemployment over 70%, inflation in November at 502%, and the US dollar which fetched $8 Zim dollars a decade ago is now worth $79,042 in Zim dolars..

Mike

Old news.

Yet the safari business in Zim is doing well.

Mark:

You really can't dismiss the concerns as well expressed by "Cats". Any first time hunter to Africa may well feel that he should go to Tanzania - and this one time hunter to Zimbabwe loved the country and would want every other first time hunter to Africa to enjoy the great experience I had in Zimbabwe. (I was in the Chirisa safari district in 1993 and was astonished at the different scenery {not just mind numbing plains} Unless you guys can assure people that their lives (forget money) are safe, guys might worry ( and definitely so will their wives - and who do you think will have the most influence?) I read various contradictory posts in this forum - and since I was there once, I can assess better than someone who never has been there - but I, of course, don't know what it is TODAY. How can someone who has never been there do any better? I realize that you guys are doing a balancing act -and I'm not expecting you to answer me - but it is a worry I'm sure for prospective hunters. ( It's kind of ironic what I'm writing now to you because I nearly went to Mozambique back in 1993 - and was dissuaded because of the unsettled political conditions in the bush)

HT, Please put me on your list also as you are not worth being in contact with. You are doing the EXACT opposite of those you berate so much. Just disappear, you are not needed! Mark Young at least discusses the issue of concern about hunting in Zimbabwe and with ONE outfitter, thinks things will be OK. That doesn't necessarily ring true for other outfitters in Zim. One has an obligation to look at problem areas honestly and not blindly.

.

Does every issue have to turn into a fight? Cats has a point -in a free world people are allowed to express there opinions.

I´d like to hunt Zim next year or in 2007. If not then somewhere else.

End of story.

Alf has a good point. The US might impose a travel ban on Zimbabwe making this arguement moot.

Gerry,Cats,

I too believe you are taking a chance booking Zim but it can't be denied that you are going to probably get the most DG hunting for your buck there. Is it worth the chance you take? That has to be up to the individual. Any third world country can be dangerous but there are areas of the US that frighten me way more.

Another thing to consider is that Tanzania closed safari hunting in the past and just recently Zambia closed and reopened plus Botswana seems to be on its way slowly to closure. So it appears any of the more common hunting country could end up closed and your safari plans ruined.

I'd love to send every safari to Tanzania but the fact remains that it is expensive to hunt there and is out of reach of a lot of first time safari hunters.

In my case I think I have given it enough time that I feel pretty safe in rebooking Zim with a well established company. It would seem that many on this board feel the same.

Mark

Mark well stated, one of the major flaws we all know about the internet is not being present face to face with those we are "speaking" to. I never meant to questioned your honesty nor sincerety, if I came off as doing so sir, you have my sincerest apology.
Seems like for a long time everyone has been crying wolf about Zim. only time will tell. Me..... well at times I'm a paronid SOB. Should we ever hunt the same fields be it US or Zim. I own you a Crown Royal & ice. TLM/Cats

Would I hunt Zim yes.. The reason is you have to remember the people like us who are still clinging to their homes and what land Bob left to them in hopes that things can improve..

Mike

You know, I really don't have a dog in this fight, and maybe I shouldn't speak here! Well, that has never stopped me before, so I guess it won't now!

It is a bad day at Black Rock, in Zimbabwe, IMO! It is a shame too, because it is one of the best places in the world to hunt. I don't know if I'll ever hunt Zim again, I would hope so. Addtionally, I'd hope there will be something left to hunt there when the poachers, and Thugs get done. I wish, like most here, that it could go back to the old days, when the country looked like a place I wanted to move to, perminetly, and retire near Bulawayo. Man am I glad I didn't!

I believe one can still have a decent hunt there if he books with one of the more secure companies, like HHK, or John Sharp. The only thing is, as CATS says, most of those guys are booked two or three yrs in advance, and the sky could really fall, in that amount of time. That wouldn't be the fault of those companies. But I would rather see them all start some sort of ESCROW, account in a sound country, to place deposit money in untill time for your safari.

I think there are some legitamate concerns involved, and it is my opinion, the "HEAD IN THE SAND" approch is not what made most folks who can afford Safaris, have the funds to participate!

I could be wrong, and believe it or not, I have been, a couple times in my 69 yrs! However, I think to not have some reservations about dropping a 8-10K deposit in a well, when you have no idea how deep it is, is a little naive! WHOT!

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, why shouldn't we discuss whether it is safe to hunt Zimbabwe, or anyplace else here on the net. I thought this is what a talk forum was all about! I guess I was wrong three times, in my 69 yrs, instead of only two!

I wish I could realy be rational about the situation in Zim. I can't though because I went twice this year. I went with Tshabezi safaries. Clinton and Dudley Rogers went far out of their way to make both trips into a wonderfulexperience. Under their tulage I managed to shoot 3 pac elephants and a 57 x 57 lbs bull ele. I see them as friends and I hope that folks will keep hunting with them. They do every thing possible to make the trip safe. They work their hearts out trying to work around the barriers thrown up by a socialist government.

My little knowlege mostly from reading the about Africa is that it never has been safe. Any of the African and South American countries can go up in an unexpected Coup at any minute. A dear friend of mine was on his way to Kenya for his dream safari in the early seventies. When he got off the plane Kenya had been closed to hunting! Africa is just Africa. If you are looking for safe you realy should contain your hunting to the continental US.

I hope we can contunue to support the hard working hunters in Zim.

I have some good friends in Zim that live on our hunting money, as does the African wilderness and wildlife.
I would hate to see Zim go the way of India.
I would also feel more unsure of my cash waiting for a hunt in Tanz or South Africa over Zim.

I have read the comments of all who have posted on this topic and it seems to me that there are clearly three diseperate, but inter-related trains of thought here:

The first thing that I discern from all posters is a clear and unequivocal love for Africa and the inestimable exeperience of hunting in Africa; an appreciation of the people, the game and the country.

Secondly, I see a clear moral outrage at Mugabe and all he stands for, a moral outrage against of his ilk, who commit such crimes and are yet, unpunished.

Thirdly, there is a consternation about what the correct course of conduct is...whether from the standpoint of assisting those whom you know, or hope, or wish or pray may provide ultimately the foundation for a new day in Africa; or to carte blanche, as a matter of principle, avoid dealing in any way with such morally bankrupt governments.

When there is a human face to the crisis at hand, it has a way of changing how we paint our palette. I can find merit in both positions; I have only been to Africa as Isaak Dinesen said, as a mind traveler. I learn so very much from the many perspectives offered and shared; I continue ten years later to learn from the stories of my Mother's time in Namimbia.

Africa, it seems, is one of those issues that will not allow us an easy answer, and yet in so many ways, the issues are metephorically speaking, very black and white, and yet, it is not. It seems to me, that we must support those people whom you've hunted with and at the same time work our fannies off to bring as much to bear as we can on the regime itself, not an easy task; but whole heartedly throwing the good and courageous people you've known to the wolves,doesn't seem the moral high ground either. There will be no easy course in this issue.

The point that most are missing is this. A good reputable booking agent will hold your deposit in escrow in the U.S.A. until just prior to the hunt some until after the hunt. Depending on the outfitter booking agent relationship etc.

If your booking agent does not do this then don't use them. If you are booking direct with the outfitter and sending them the deposit directly you are taking a huge risk.

There is no need to use a booking agent to hold your funds in escrow. If you book with one of the reputable companies in Zim, you will have a great safari. Compare the fantastic safaris members of AR have had in Zim during the past year to some of the FUBAR deals in Tanzania.

I thought the sky was falling in 2000 and was glad to have booked in Zambia that year. I went back to Zim in 2004 and saw as much game as ever. My next hunt will probably be in Zim as thats where I can afford to go . I will book with a large outfitter and use a US booking agent to hold the funds here, but Ive always done that anyway .

I spoke to a guy that just got back from a hunt in Zim a few weeks ago. He had a good hunt with no problems. He hunted with Brooklands.
I have a 30 day hunt with Brooklands in March 2006.
I hunted 21 days in June 2004 [great hunt] with HHK with out any problems.

I know this is off topic,but it really pisses me off when my mothers and brothers [all South Africans for that matter and other Un nations and Us]tax money is used to support a country Like that.
But then again I feel sorry for all the Christians and the thousands of good people and innocent people that populate that country.
Mugabe sits in a mansion,I dont know how many Mercedes outside and his people is dying of Famine.
The best off all is that these same people re-elects him again.I wonder what will happen if that man is going to die and he will die.Can there be more chaos,I guess so.
All we can do is pray for all the innocent people.
The people that hunts there brings money and whith that food[game hunted]so that is a good thing.I just hope that money and food lands in the right hands.
Ok now that is off my shoulders
God will prevail and provide
Johan

I have hunted in Namibia, RSA, Tanzania, and Zambia. How is Zimbabwe a better deal. I hunted with Peter Chipman this past year for buffalo/plains game and no one at SCI or DSC could come close on similar game when hunting in Zimbabwe. I am booked for an elephant hunt with Peter in 07 an am looking for a booking in 06. To me all the Zim prices were higher than Zambia for similar game. I might not have been looking in the right places for hunts, so, if someone can steer me to a reasonable hunt in Zimbabwe let me know. I have been reluctant to support the industry there as there is some doubt as to the legality of the relationships some PH's have to the illegal regeim in Zimbabwe. Unless one is sure the connection does not exist then it is possibly better to stay away??????

The issue or question, it seems to me, is not whether the hunt will be good or bad, or whether the outfitter is reliable. It is a question of ethics. Is it right for hunters to economically support the most corrupt leader and government in southern Africa. There is nothing in Zimbadwe that cannot be found elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
There is no need to use a booking agent to hold your funds in escrow. If you book with one of the reputable companies in Zim, you will have a great safari. Compare the fantastic safaris members of AR have had in Zim during the past year to some of the FUBAR deals in Tanzania.

You choose to remember only what you want to

Bad apples are everywhere and if you don't believe so you are more naive than i thought! The only advantage Zim has over most other countries with regards to hunting opportunities is that it is cheaper. That is the dominant reason why anyone still hunts there.

If all the "John Sharp's" (read: reputable outfitters/ph's) of Zim moved to Zambia, Tanzania, etc and charged higher prices, you would still get 1000's of hunters going to Zim it's all about the money....

quote:

The only advantage Zim has over most other countries with regards to hunting opportunities is that it is cheaper. That is the dominant reason why anyone still hunts there.

I hunt ZIM because of the excellent, well qualified PHs, the great camps, the great hunting and the Zambezi Valley. Even with the problems ZIM faces, it is still one of the best places to hunt in Africa. I'm sure Bob gets some of my money, but I know that the local villagers get fed some of the game meat and the trackers/camp staff get US Dollars from me.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
There is no need to use a booking agent to hold your funds in escrow. If you book with one of the reputable companies in Zim, you will have a great safari. Compare the fantastic safaris members of AR have had in Zim during the past year to some of the FUBAR deals in Tanzania.

You choose to remember only what you want to

Bad apples are everywhere and if you don't believe so you are more naive than i thought! The only advantage Zim has over most other countries with regards to hunting opportunities is that it is cheaper. That is the dominant reason why anyone still hunts there.

If all the "John Sharp's" (read: reputable outfitters/ph's) of Zim moved to Zambia, Tanzania, etc and charged higher prices, you would still get 1000's of hunters going to Zim it's all about the money....

It looks like the ice cream business has dulled your mind!

It's about getting what you pay for.

Why would anyone want to go on a $80K lion hunt in Tanz and walk away with only a buff and leopard, when he could get buff, leopard, lion and elephant in Zim for $45K???

So it's not just about dollars. It's also about having a successful hunt. Tanzania does nothing to keep the sharks out of the business. Zim does a much better job of it.

Consequently, there are a lot of guys getting ripped off in Tanzania. (And there are also guys getting good hunts, if they do their homework and find a good operator.) Maybe your efforts would be better spent cleaning up the Tanzania safari industry rather than sniping at other forumites on AR.

I'm with Terry and the rst of the Zim supporters on this one. Sure mugabe gets some of my money, but the buffalo I killed all went to the local village for meat, the money I spent went to help feed and KEEP ALIVE the local folks on my PH's outfit and perhaps most importantly, it gives VALUE to the animals, hence, ensuring their survival. jorge

Everyone expressing their opionions has a reason. Mine is that we have identified people in Zimbabwe that we truly like and enjoy as friends. I've hunted many places and they are the only outfitter/PH that I have ever kept in contact with.

Comments are being made that Zimbabwe is less money to hunt than many other countries. This is true. Not everyone can afford a Tanzania or Botswana hunt, even once. If I wanted to spend the money for a full blown Tanzania hunt I would use the money to hunt with Coenraad Veermak in South Africa where a big buffalo, lion and leopard could be had for about the same price, maybe a little more. All fair chase. If all I had was the money for one African hunt and I wanted to hunt a buffalo I would pick Zimbabwe.

Worries about your deposit money disappearing in Zimbabwe are not justified. Look at all the folks that have lost money with the Caribou operation that folded in Canada. In all businesses there are people that are less than honorable. The hunting industry has had more than its share of agents and outfitters that have screwed over their clients.

Know who you are dealing with and you reduce the chances of losing your money. My deposit sits in a bank in England. I trusted Andy with the lives of my son, my friends and myself, I have every reason to trust him with a few dollars. It would never happen, but if I lose that money I would gladly give more. As the reason for the loss would have had to be a great one.

One poster loves Namibia and promotes hunting in Namibia, so there is his motivation to knock Zimbabwe. Another poster promotes hunts into Tanzania so that is why he knocks Zimbabwe. Everyone has a valid opionion, although there may be motives. I cant say anything about either country as I have never hunted either one. I would like to hunt in Masailand and around Ethosa Pan. It will happen, but for the time being my eyes are towards Zimbabwe.

Terry Carr posted:

quote:

I hunt ZIM because of the excellent, well qualified PHs, the great camps, the great hunting and the Zambezi Valley. Even with the problems ZIM faces, it is still one of the best places to hunt in Africa. I'm sure Bob gets some of my money, but I know that the local villagers get fed some of the game meat and the trackers/camp staff get US Dollars from me.

I can't agree more with you Terry! I have some very good friends in Zim, they are working very hard and have a great safari camp, the Ph's the staff the trackers are all very happy that we comtinue to come over and hunt.I will be hunting with them very chance I get! The hunting there is still excellent!

The main reason this forum exists is to pass on knowledge and opinion of "those that have been there and done that". I have hunted elephants in Zim the past 4 years and will return again in March of 06. Hope that means something here!

465H&H