No you cant assume that. Just because I am not in the loop to be able to provide that information dosnt mean it dosnt exis.t. I supose I need to make a couple of phone calls Monday to try and answer your question. I am not sure why I am making it my resonsibility when you can contact them directly yourself but I will try. While we are at this why is no one talking about DSC? Another good orgnitzation btw. If you dont like SCI and like DSC then support them. I tink all this energy would be better spent being directed into something positive whatever that might be rather than focusing on points of contention.

Mike,

If you review the thread, you'll find that other people have already done that, but with the exception of about US$7K spent on anti poaching, answers haven't been forthcoming.

I see that. I will see if I can do any better. My point is still that we need to put our energy and talent into doing something positive rather than focusing on negative issues. I firmly believe that. I dont care where that energy is directed as long as it is positive. I put my money and energy into trying to make things better not just tear things down. I think if we all did that it would make a difference.

I'm going to get on my Street Glide and go to JP's Liquors, buy a bottle of single malt and a cigar, putt home, crush some ice, pour a couple of fingers in a short glass with the ice, fire up the Partagas and toast SCI, DSC, the competing guys on this (and other SCI threads), Africa, Wood Bison and the shepard's pie I just put together (with ground venison), then, put it in the refrigerator to bake for lunch after church tomorrow. I'll wash the whisky glass and the pot in which I cooked the mashed potatoes and probably take a dump. Then, I'm going to go get my girlfriend and then her folks, have dinner somewhere nice and then go dancing (which sucks, not the parents or girlfriend..., but the dancing... maybe sucks wasn't the right word... hope I didn't confuse anyone???). Afterward the dancing and taking the folks home, I'll have my fingers crossed.

SCI will be around tomorrow. I wonder if anyone in its leadership will read this thread and if all my work tonight will make a difference.

SCI does some good stuff. No, some really good stuff, but it surely can be better. The fastest way to make improvements is from the top. Maybe, just maybe, someone who has some influence will read this thread and understand the two complaints that seem most valid... the donation for location bargaining and the (in my little experience) feeling of African exhibitors that SCI could be more active/vocal in African hunting.

Judge,
Sounds like the most sensible thing on this thread yet. I'm off to hit the sour mash,
Here's mud in your eye!
Russ

quote:

My point is still that we need to put our energy and talent into doing something positive rather than focusing on negative issues. I firmly believe that

Thank you, Mike.

That is precisely my point.

I get the distinct impression that SCI is concentrating far too much on trophy size and "inner circles" that on the real issues that affect us as hunters - especially in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike

My point is still that we need to put our energy and talent into doing something positive rather than focusing on negative issues. I firmly believe that

I'll agree with that

Originally posted by Saeed

I get the distinct impression that SCI is concentrating far too much on trophy size and "inner circles" that on the real issues that affect us as hunters - especially in Africa.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with that also

oday450 - You said, quote "I'll use my "average guy lower income level" dollars to support an organization that supports my beliefs and goals. Just who is that organization Oday, and what do they do and accomplish. I am up for supporting any/all worthwhile groups/

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Oday450:

quote:

saw the best and worst in people and decided to leave mainly because of the Income based elitism. These guys exclude or include you based on your perceived net worth. I see that same mutual admiration society in the national.

This is the exact reason I and a large number of previous members no longer belong or support the organization. I'll use my "average guy lower income level" dollars to support an organization that supports my beliefs and goals.

Steve, maybe you should find out what the NWTF is and then comment. Most of the posters here know the NWTF .

What knid of problems does Africa have re hunters that a bit of common sense by the locals couldn't fix, why does an outside group have to come to your rescue. Oh yea I forgort they are US based therefore must charge to the rescue.

NWTF=National Wild Turkey Foundation

Mr Google tells me it might be the Nat Wild Turkey Federation, but it might equally be other things. If it is the Nat Wild Turkey Federation, why the f'cking hell would I know anything about that. I've never even seen a wild turkey. and as they don't occur in Africa what relevence do they have to the subject in hand?

As for riding to the rescue, It would ppear that Africa would be better off waiting for Custer to ride to the rescue than wait for SCI to do it..... and Custer died in 1876!

More to the point, can you answer the question yet?

Most nonprofits in the US pride themselves on how tightly their individual operations are run.I would assume this is true worldwide. The ones I am familiar with proudly display these statitics for all to see. It is a benchmark of honesty and efficiency to let all know how much is being spent on what we call G&A, for general and administrative, and how much money is being applied to the nonprofit's various endeavors. I would use Ducks Unlimited's yearly financials for an example. I have never received this from SCI in any form. Which brings us back to the question that does not seem to have an answer. Which makes one wonder how SCI would fare under the scrutiny of an IRS audit.

They are under the IRS scutiny as everyone elese in the US-- for profit or not for profit.

Go to charitynavigator.com and you'll see they (as in SCIF) get 4-stars-- the highest ranking a charity/NFP can receive. You'll see the breakdown in expenses and income as well. CharNav is an independent research and analysis firm that ranks where your money is best spent in relation to percentages of donations/income)

This is NOT a defense for SCI but the IRS related info you seek is out there.

The problems associated with the 990 Form which they must file with the IRS, as well as the stuff Char Nav does is that it is not specific. For instance, in SCI's case, a board meeting held in Timbukto or somewhere in the Selous, or in Arizonia would all be Ok'ed, as would a "retreat" to Hungary or Croatia or a "fact- finding" mission to Zim or use your imagination.

Basically the public documents get you no-where when looking for specifics as they pertain to where and why money was spent-- just what cost code they fell in and maybe the major "cause" as in education /outreach/conservation. Orgs are welcome to put the specifics in, but it is a rare case that they do.

And, you can find this (the 990) on the SCI web site I believe.

Now, I don't even know know why I bothered punching this in. Guess I hate to see road apples thrown out-- and it could be the one too many of tequila last night.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
oday450 - Just who is that organization Oday, and what do they do and accomplish.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry - I firmly believe in conservation, ethical hunting and behavior, and that there is great need to instill these same values in youth. Therefore, I support the DSC and their missions. I have also been a member of the RMEF and DU supporting habitat improvement and conservation. Additionally, I support financially and actively participate in Boy Scout conservation, shooting, and outdoor sports programs and as a teacher/counselor in their outdoor sports, safety, and conservation training programs.

While this is not all totally applicable to the SCI/Africa debate, my comment above was made in agreement with the elitist, better than you attitude found within the SCI.

Nkonka,
The problem we were having while I was on the BOD was a IRS rating of 501c.3 vs 501c.4. The difference was huge. Items purchased being deductable vs not. Can't say what the outcome was but they probably prevailed.
Chipolopolo

Steve Saeed et all, I too find the inner circles etc to be silly. I could care less about them. However, those programs generate money to be used other places. Now we are back to your original question of a break down as to what goes where. So we are just running in circles. I for one am going to go find something else to do.

Sooooo........ can we assume that no-one can answer the question then?

There you go ass-uming again. I dont have the answer. I am just an ordinary member doing what I can. You dont like SCI fine. Go find something positive to do.

Mike,

That's the problem, despite all those members on the forum who all pay that expensive membership and despite all that money donated and all the additional profit taken in rentals etc, no-one seems to have the answer and it's almost as though the information is kept secret.

Hell, if I were a member, I'd expect all of that sort of information to be very much in the public domain and easily accessible.

It strikes me that it's not me who's the ass.

Iam a new member to SCI (2009) I paid my ~400USD for a year membership and a 4 day pass - and maybe iam stupid but i paid that money for a good show (probably the biggest and best ill ever have the pleasure to attend to). I didnt know a % would go back to Africa or something like that ? Things cost, i just wish that i was the SCI president....

Ah well, I can't see the situation changing.

Maybe we should go back to debating the 45.70.

Steve,
Theres alway the new "Capstick" thread to attend
Or maybe we could just discuss Sullivan instead

Hey,

We've actually got some great choices.

45.70
Capstick
MS
Best calibre for hipporhinosaphant
and of course.............

What does African game taste like.

Pretty cool huh?

Here's another one we should perhaps consider...

How about a poll asking if people involved in canned Lion hunting should be:

A - Burned at the atake

B - Hung drawm and quartered

C - Tied to a tree for Leopard Bait

D - Broken on the wheel

Now there's a topic that'll run and run!

Steve if you look you will see I didnt call you an ass. I was making a pun and a point that if one assumes anything you or I will get into trouble. That said why are you and I at odds here? Why dont we work together to accomplish something instead of flogging this dead horse? I want to make a difference as I think do you. We just dont agree on how to do it. So instead of this lets find something we can agree to work on together? I get it you dont like SCI. So lets move on to trying to accomplish something. If you think that looking at the finances of SCI is going to make a difference then fine. I think the truth of the situation lies somewhere between the two extremes anyway. Most of us work on what we can at the local level. I cant speak for anyone else. I also cant give you answers on this as I dont have facts and figures. I am not involved with what goes on at the international level. I trust that those there are doing some good. I am just as sure that there are some who would abuse the situation. We are both emotionally involved in this. I just dont think beating SCI down is going to acomplish anything positive. What is it that you want to see happen? Give me something positive to work on and I am there. I am not about trashing something without concrete proof. Not having an answer at this point does not constitute proof. It is a lack of information. If anyone can show me that what you are accusing is true I will change my opinion.

Mike,

First of all, I don't think there's a hope in hell of our making a difference, but assuming it's possible, I'd first like to see the donation system abandoned and replaced with a sliding scale of rates according to location. That would allow the exhibitor to make his own decision, not feel he's being blackmailed and he would also know he isn't (effectively) losing 2 clients on top of his donation to SCI.

I'd also like to see them spend a percentage of the income derived from exhibitors who are involved in the African hunting industry on projects in Africa. Things such as the giant sable project and maybe (if they wanted to invest outide the wildlife sector) the Bugando Hospital in Mwanza etc.

If you think about it, SCI has the contacts, the money and the reputation to make an immense difference to places like Africa and they should have the know how to be able to present the work they're doing to the general non hunting public in such a way as to inform then that hunters REALLY are good guys and their actions produce effective results. In other words, it's a double (or more) win situation.

I also tend to think the mutual appreciation society of inner and outer circles etc should be downplayed considerably and most importantly, that they could achieve so very much with their set up but choose not to do so.

Hope that helps.

Dan- Sorry if I tripped you up on a road apple. What I was trying to illustrate, albiet poorly, is that many of these nonprofits make the expense side completely transparent, above what the IRS requires on their forms. SCI does not by choice. I may have suffered from your same malady when writing the earlier post.

Steve this is the first thing you have said I can agree with without a problem. You will still efectively pay for you location at the convention as you do now. If it makes you feel better about it that is great. As to the rest of your statement count me in agreement. Now what do you want to do about it? I am glad to help. As to the circles I see them as being better than the record book. Although I dont care about them and dont participate at least every animal is treated as a trophy. The record book long ago ceased being about the animals. It was a case of who could afford what for the most part although not always true. I dont care if a bunch of people want to pay a fee to pat themselves on the back to make them feel good. It is still a fund raising mechanism that does no harm. As far as that goes as an outfitter you should like it. First you get your company name listed, as such it is free advertising. Second all the people trying to make the circles are going to spend money to hunt all the animals required for the list. It is not based on meaurements for the most part except for x number of record book entries and top 10 entries. The rest are just for species taken. If you can see harm in this I am interested. Last, since you dont think therre is a chance in hell of us making a difference why bother with all of this? By the way I think I have already proved one person can make a difference.

Crane,

yeah, that's why I'm on the Scots whisky tonight! Like you, I believe it would be best for a much more transparent reporting. That way we'd see the $$ and where they do actually go.

Page 34 of Jan/Feb 09 Safari seems rather interesting??? Hmmm. And me, a proud member of SCI having questions like that.

Just spent about 100 hours (+) of my life making the Detroit Chapter SCI event happen. Mike Smith covered my tracks here on A-R. At the end of the day 30% will be sent to the International to do their thing; pay for the Tucson headquarters, projects, etc. We will subsequently send off our pledges to various things like inner-city kid fishing derbies, moose restoration projects, polar bear studies, etc.

There seems to be SCI elitist and those of you who are other 'Hunting' elitists. Me and mine seem to be in between.

Those of us who support the 'serious hunter' position are not bloodied-nor-bowed. Saeed and I are about five digits (six? seven?) apart in the checkbook but otherwise on the same page. We don't apologize for being hunters be it rabbits or elephants regardless of the depth or our checkbook. Your either for us or against us.

Trust me guys, there is life after Safari Club!! I am an oldtimer at SCI and I have seen it all...coming and going, I haven't heard as much grousing about the poor treatment of Exhibitors and the excessive costs as I have in the last two shows...yes even from Corporate Sponsors!!
This year I had two Exhibitors approach me about another venue...what did I think?? I gave them my perspective, fair and unbiased, without any malise. I am hearing more and more complaints about SCI NOT policing the exhibitors that are bad players...and people are getting taken by them...newer attendees thinking that if they are at SCI...they are OK...ain't so, unfortunately. This affects the good guys as well...
I beleive that there will be a Las Vegas Hunting Show with Africa focus in the near future, a commercial show, no fundraisers and donations, a SHOT SHOW for hunting, more or less, yes with limited access.
When or if SCI goes to Dallas, as rumored, this will accelerate the venue...
That's how I see it...

I think it would be great to have a PRIVATE show where the fees will be two to three times SCI's fees and required donations. It will be in Vagas and will by the location be more expensive to hold. I personally think it is great SCI is leaving Reno as it is a bitch to get in and out (from the east coast). There is a sliver lining in every black cloud.